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Thread: Dumb Design Choice, or Bug? - Massive Marine Melee Attack Penalty

  1. #41
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: Dumb Design Choice, or Bug? - Massive Marine Melee Attack Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB206 View Post
    I found some historical references to a naval force fighting a city defense. This is from Greek and Macedonian Land Battles of the 4th Century B.C. by Fred Eugene Ray, Jr.

    During the Lamian War, while Antipater was under siege in Lamia...

    About the same time that Leonnatos was meeting defeat to the north, another Macedonian was faring no better along the coast of Attica. Micion had come ashore there to deal some payback to the Athenians for besieging his comrades in Lamia. Plutarch characterized his landing party as "a large force" (Vol. II Phocian, 261). Given a fleet of 110 triremes (Diodorus 18.12.3).

    There were potentially 4,500 heavily armed Macedonians and mercenaries (roughly 40 per ship) and some light troops in support (maybe 1,000). The Athenian general, Phocion (80 years old), led the cities last three remaining taxeis of prime aged men (2,000 hoplites and 200 horsemen) along with spearmen over 40 years of age (3,000). He also had 300 or so cavalry and light footmen drawn from the baggage carriers (maybe 1,000-2,000). Catching the enemy near the town of Rhamnus, Phocion formed up his phalanx and engaged in a pitched battle.

    Micion might have fielded up to 3,000 pikemen (two regiments) on his left and about 1,500 hired hoplites forming his right wing. The armed rowers would have split to screen along either side. Phocion likely set up his slightly larger force at eight shields deep across a 625m front, putting younger men in the fore and the oldest in the as the rear. This would have led Micion (had he kept his phalangites eight-deep) to stretch out his mercenaries using files of 4 in order to avoid an overlap. (Note this assumes a 2 to 1 preponderance of pikemen over hoplites. If the ratio had been the reverse, Micion could have achieved the same frontage and kept his spearmen at a more competitive six-deep.)

    In the combat that ensued, we might suspect that it was on the thinner and pike-less Macedonian right where Phocion's men won the day. Perhaps aided by a sweep off that flank by their cavalry and more numerous light infantry, Athens' spearmen pushed back and enveloped the Macedonian commander and his hirelings where they stood on that wing. The Athenian's "entirely routed the enemy, killing Micion and many more on the spot" (Plutarch), giving chase to probably claim a death toll of 20-30 percent among those beaten to turn against the insurgency as it now suffered a pair of defeats at sea.

    So a pretty even fight.

    4,500 heavy vs 5,000 (3k which were old milita)
    1,000 lights vs 1-2k
    Zero cav vs 500 for the Athenians

    This was a raiding party, not attacking Athens.

    Not sure why the author assumed that 3,000 of these 4,500 potential marines were pikemen. Anything is possible, though I could find nothing on that.
    It's an interesting find indeed. Any link with the source ?

    Cheers.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Dumb Design Choice, or Bug? - Massive Marine Melee Attack Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Greek strategos View Post
    It's an interesting find indeed. Any link with the source ?

    Cheers.
    Here is the book for sale. He has one on the 4th Century and 5th Century. He puts together a likely picture of what the battles looked like. Some battles only get mentioned in one or phrases or sentences. It's a lot of guess work but an amazing read.

    Mods i hope I am allowed to link a book for sale. I do not work for him or receive any proceeds.

    https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Macedon.../dp/0786469730

  3. #43
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
    took an arrow to the knee

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    Default Re: Dumb Design Choice, or Bug? - Massive Marine Melee Attack Penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB206 View Post
    Here is the book for sale. He has one on the 4th Century and 5th Century. He puts together a likely picture of what the battles looked like. Some battles only get mentioned in one or phrases or sentences. It's a lot of guess work but an amazing read.

    Mods i hope I am allowed to link a book for sale. I do not work for him or receive any proceeds.

    https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Macedon.../dp/0786469730
    Sure no problem. Thanks for the heads up buddy.

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