Three Kingdoms Unit Variety and DLCs

[samuraixkan]

Hopefully CA will not be as lazy as with Shogun 2. Since Three Kingdom is the best era for unit variety for China. Song Dynasty is nice but it will be the same with Shogun 2 where copy paste for each faction. But Three Kingdoms is not.


There are just so many ways to do it since the factions especially the main 3 are so different.


Shu -
Repeating Crossbow and war machinery invented by Zhuge Liang, repeating crossbow are so famous and is the mainstream of the faction. Troops are not as heavily armoured compared to Wei. Ranged horse units


Wei -
Heavily focused on armoured troops and large amount of armies, pikes and spears focused faction. Cataphract Cavalry with one moust famously known for
Tiger Cavalry (虎豹骑) the strongest and most elite units for Wei Cavalry


WU - More of a Archer faction. Very experienced in Naval combat, fire ships, experienced sailors and sea bandits/ shock infantry


Nanman -


Armoured Axeman, Poison units and Elephants.


Some very good ideas and examples that can be used can be found on games like Tiger Knights Empire War (Pretty accurate and nice units as well as variety)


DLCs -


Xiong Nu (like Mongols/ Huns) they do invade China. a good scenerio. After the fall of kingdom China got conquered and lost.


Yamatai (Japanese ronin-like bandits that invades China from time to time)

Goguryeo (The Koreans, they would play a very small role in China's capaign though)


Timeline scenarios for Campaign


Yellow Turbans Rebellion
Rise of Heroes (Pretty much the game is set on this timeline already)
Rise of Three Kingdoms
Fall of Three Kingdoms


Hopefully CA will do a good job on unit variety for Three Kingdom as it is extremely important. An Avatar Conquest like Shogun 2 multiplayer would be amazing as well and adds massive replay value.

[NostalgiaFan]

They were never "lazy" with Shogun 2. The factions were simply like that historically so they went with that.

[Anapoda]

Going to be pretty nice to wipe out full regiments with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei.CA is maybe going to make many heroes DLCs.

And well, that's what this era is all about in the end, heroes and villains.

[samuraixkan]

These are some nice examples that CA can use for Variety in making the Three Main factions btw. and they will have to add the capture system. where if a genreal is fallen in battle they are captured afterwards. which you can persuade them to join (Loyalty plays a big factor), you can also bribe them. release them to lower their loyalty, execute or ransom.

[Roma_Victrix]

These are some nice examples that CA can use for Variety in making the Three Main factions btw. and they will have to add the capture system. where if a genreal is fallen in battle they are captured afterwards. which you can persuade them to join (Loyalty plays a big factor), you can also bribe them. release them to lower their loyalty, execute or ransom.

I'm not sure I like this. It seems to give Shu the vast majority of available crossbow units, when in reality each of these rival factions would have fielded plenty of their own crossbowmen. Southern Chinese in the state of Eastern Wu didn't belong to some foreign civilization; they were still Chinese and privy to all the military tech that had been available in China for centuries. It's just that they emphasized bowmen and marines on the rivers and lakes far more due to their native terrain, whereas soldiers in the north were far more used to horseback riding and dealing with cavalry tactics (a necessity given the nomadic threat from Mongolia, Central Asia, and Manchuria).

Hopefully CA will not be as lazy as with Shogun 2. Since Three Kingdom is the best era for unit variety for China. Song Dynasty is nice but it will be the same with Shogun 2 where copy paste for each faction. But Three Kingdoms is not.

How so? The armies and fighting styles of the Northern Song would have differed significantly from the Tanguts of the Western Xia, the Khitans of the Liao Dynasty, and the Jurchens of the Jin Dynasty. This is even more pronounced when you consider the nascent gunpowder weaponry beginning in the middle of the 11th century and seeing dramatic improvements during the 12th century. By then they had rocket arrows and primitive bombs lobbed from catapults. This was followed a century later by the first bronze handguns in existence during the late Southern Song and early Yuan dynasties (1270s-1280s AD).

It's also hard to argue it would be nothing but copy-paste armies when the Mongols were gradually conquering China during much of the 13th century. The Mongols were the most exceptional mounted steppe warriors of their day, pretty irrefutable when you consider the empire they carved out in Asia and Eastern Europe, from Korea to Ukraine.

There are just so many ways to do it since the factions especially the main 3 are so different.
Nanman -

Armoured Axeman, Poison units and Elephants.

Xiong Nu (like Mongols/ Huns) they do invade China. a good scenerio. After the fall of kingdom China got conquered and lost.

You mention the Nanman and the Xiongnu, but not the Xianbei, the Wuhuan, or the Qiang peoples? If anything the Xiongnu wouldn't become terribly relevant again until the Uprising of the Five Barbarians in 304-316 AD, during the end of the Western Jin and beginning of Eastern Jin. The proto-Mongolic Xianbei, while having their confederation broken since 180 AD with the death of their leader Tanshihuai (檀石槐), were still a much more prescient threat in the north against the Eastern Han. An even greater threat were the Sino-Tibetan Qiang peoples, who overran Liang province in a rebellion during the 180s AD, simultaneously with the Yellow Turban Rebellion. The Qiang led subsequent revolts as well that had to be quelled. To the northeast there were also the proto-Mongolic Wuhuan people, who Cao Cao had to fight in 207 AD due to them sheltering the sons of Yuan Shao. After Cao Cao defeated them many skilled nomadic Qiang cavalrymen were recruited into the military of Cao Wei and became incredibly important as a mounted arm of their army.

I know the Kingdom of Champa in southern Vietnam used elephant cavalry in some of their conflicts with Chinese dynasties (notably the Sui dynasty), but did the Nanman also actually field elephant cavalry? Or is this just a silly introduction by the Dynasty Warriors games?

Yamatai (Japanese ronin-like bandits that invades China from time to time)

Although diplomatic relations with Japan started in the 1st century AD, the Japanese weren't exactly relevant to China during the 3rd century AD. They would become relevant when meddling in the affairs of the later Three Kingdoms of Korea, fighting against Tang China and the Korean Silla kingdom during the 7th century AD (especially after the fall of their Korean ally Baekje). That's long after the time frame of our game, though.

Goguryeo (The Koreans, they would play a very small role in China's capaign though)

I see some opportunity here, although it's debatable if they will even include Goguryeo in a DLC, let alone the first release.

[samuraixkan]

Crimson made a very good post on units variety as well. Do check it out
https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...period.604561/

@Roma, its an idea for CA to spice things up. I am not saying crossbow should only be exclusive to Shu. some nice points you made there.

[ptoss1]

The game starts in 190 though, so really there's going to be several factions beyond just the main three, which don't really come into their own for decades. Most likely there'll be one shared tech tree like in Shogun 2.

[Intranetusa]

You're missing some factions. The kingdoms of the Korean peninsula attacked the commanderies and military colonies of the Han Dynasty they had set up on the peninsula and in Manchuria. The Han Dynasty commanderies themselves became independent, allied with the proto-Korean kingdoms, or allied themselves with the Chinese kingdoms. Goguryeo actually fought multiple wars with Wei - they lost the first wars, then fought off the later Wei invasions, and then gained strength to overrun the last of the Han Dynasty commanderies.

The Han commanderies in Vietnam were in a similar situation, and were experiencing incursions from kingdoms of Khmer, South Vietnam, etc. IIRC, Shu had to reassert sovereignty over the commanderies near northern Vietnam, while Eastern Wu did have actual sovereignty over northern Vietnam. Wu had to fight a rebellion or invasion from Lady Trieu in Vietnam. Northern Vietnamese/Southern Chinese/SE Asian people and tribes would most likely have been used as auxiliaries or mercenaries if they were friendly. IIRC, ROTK describes Nanman tribes (around Southern China/NW Vietnam) with war elephants who fought Shu.

In Mongolia, Manchuria, and the Central Asian steppes, the nomads such as the Xianbei, Wuhuan, and the remnants of the Xiongnu continued to pose a threat. Other nomads such as the Southern Xiongnu Confederation were allied with the Han Dynasty and used as Roman-esque Foederati barbarian troops and auxillaries.

Proto-Tibetan people and Qiang tribes/kingdoms also attacked and invaded areas of Gansu and the Western Regions. The Western Regions that stretched into Central Asia were still controlled by Han Dynasty commanderies and millitary governors, but were mostly cut off from the Central government by these attacks until Wei later reestablished contact/authority. It'd be feasible to include the Chinese Western regions and maybe even Central Asians in the game (Persians, semi-nomads, Greco-Persians, Indo-Greeks, etc).

There wasn't much contact with Wa (Japan) except trade and diplomatic missions (and maybe an occasional pirate raid...although they weren't significant until many centuries later). However, CA could certain use their creative license and add a little fiction to say they were involved in a war here or there.

[Ngazi]

Yeah I play Tiger Knight too (screen and first post are based on this game). It is a better game than Total War Arena by far.

But you can have more unit variety than that game pretty easy, because you don't need to have different weapons and upgrades for every single unit like you do in these grind games. Of course, many Tiger Knight units would be combined into a few units in Total War.

As for DLCs. I think day one you will only have 5-6 major factions and only 190. Yellow Turbans and the others all Han at least in name. Then you get DLCs for minor warlords in 190 that are not very varied. Then bigger DLCs for bigger factions with more variety. Then major DLCs for close times like fall of Jin, interruption between West and East Han, and Emperor Wu / Grand Historian.

Any other time will be another game and many years later. And only if this game sells.

[JackDionne]

What do you guys know about the special units that had anti-cavalry swords. Will they be in the 3K era?

I wondering what the implications would be in game terms with these units fighting other spear units and sword units. Maybe there was a picture of one of them, I don't know which one.

[zoner16]

What do you guys know about the special units that had anti-cavalry swords. Will they be in the 3K era?

I wondering what the implications would be in game terms with these units fighting other spear units and sword units. Maybe there was a picture of one of them, I don't know which one.

There are a couple of anti-cavalry swords from the time period. They're not exactly widespread weapons, but they did exist and saw some use according to records.

There's the Shuāngshǒujiàn (双手剑) which is similar to a European zweihandler. This is the rarer of the two, as it was harder to train with and ended up being less effective in the situations it was meant for than it's successor.

Its successor the Zhǎnmǎdāo (斩马刀) is a predecessor to the Japanese ōdachi. This saw a lot more use as it was easier to manufacture, give to soldiers, and expect them to be effective. It's large hilt was sometimes large enough to qualify it as a hafted weapon.

Both of these blades were not standard fare against heavy cavalry within the borders of the Han empire. Simply put, it was both a lot easier and more effective to just mass a bunch of soldiers with spears and halberds to drive off cavalry charges. However, against enemies who didn't employ armored cavalry charges and instead used loose attacks designed to punish big infantry formations, these kinds of weapons gained favor as it left individual soldiers or small groups more able to fight back when the formation broke apart.

Apologies for the poor formatting of the Chinese tone marks. I'm still not sure how to fix that.

[JackDionne]

There are a couple of anti-cavalry swords from the time period. They're not exactly widespread weapons, but they did exist and saw some use according to records.

There's the Shuāngshǒujiàn (双手剑) which is similar to a European zweihandler. This is the rarer of the two, as it was harder to train with and ended up being less effective in the situations it was meant for than it's successor.

Its successor the Zhǎnmǎdāo (斩马刀) is a predecessor to the Japanese ōdachi. This saw a lot more use as it was easier to manufacture, give to soldiers, and expect them to be effective. It's large hilt was sometimes large enough to qualify it as a hafted weapon.
That was a great response, thank you so much.

Both of these blades were not standard fare against heavy cavalry within the borders of the Han empire. Simply put, it was both a lot easier and more effective to just mass a bunch of soldiers with spears and halberds to drive off cavalry charges. However, against enemies who didn't employ armored cavalry charges and instead used loose attacks designed to punish big infantry formations, these kinds of weapons gained favor as it left individual soldiers or small groups more able to fight back when the formation broke apart.

Apologies for the poor formatting of the Chinese tone marks. I'm still not sure how to fix that.

That was an excellent response, thank you so much. Sounds like you know what you are talking about.

[PFElton]

I also agree we can expect some seven or eight starting factions around the evident start of Dong Zhuo usurping the throne. The thing about the Three Kingdoms period is, there's some 40-odd factions to flesh out and like 6 interesting start dates. They'll be releasing DLC for this bad boy for the better part of a decade.

My predictions for starting factions:
Dong Zhuo
Liu Bei/Shu
Cao Cao/Wei
Sun Jian/Wu
Yuan Shao
Ma Chao

[zoner16]

I also agree we can expect some seven or eight starting factions around the evident start of Dong Zhuo usurping the throne. The thing about the Three Kingdoms period is, there's some 40-odd factions to flesh out and like 6 interesting start dates. They'll be releasing DLC for this bad boy for the better part of a decade.

My predictions for starting factions:
Dong Zhuo
Liu Bei/Shu
Cao Cao/Wei
Sun Jian/Wu
Yuan Shao
Ma Chao

Ma Chao is a 14 year old at the start date. His father, Ma Teng, is one of the most powerful people in Xiliang, and will probably be their faction leader.

[PFElton]

Ma Chao is a 14 year old at the start date. His father, Ma Teng, is one of the most powerful people in Xiliang, and will probably be their faction leader.

Thank you for the correction.

[NostalgiaFan]

There is no good reason to confine all DLC and expansions to just the Three Kingdoms period. This title would be better served to have expansions all around China's history from the Warring States Period to the Tang Dynasty and the Mongol Invasions.

[Intranetusa]

There is no good reason to confine all DLC and expansions to just the Three Kingdoms period. This title would be better served to have expansions all around China's history from the Warring States Period to the Tang Dynasty and the Mongol Invasions.

There are plenty of material for expansions around the timeperiod. They could just make the expansion about the Han Dynasty itself and its numerous wars. Or about the invasions of the 5 barbarians in the century after the 3k era.
The Tang Dynasty is big enough to deserve its own main game. The Mongol Empire is big enough to deserve multiple main games to combine the map.

[zoner16]

There are plenty of material for expansions around the timeperiod. They could just make the expansion about the Han Dynasty itself and its numerous wars. Or about the invasions of the 5 barbarians in the century after the 3k era.
The Tang Dynasty is big enough to deserve its own main game. The Mongol Empire is big enough to deserve multiple main games to combine the map.

I'd love a War of the Eight Princes expansion so I can prevent the Jin Dynasty from wasting Sima Yi's legacy and give Sima Liang the victory he deserved.

[NostalgiaFan]

There are plenty of material for expansions around the timeperiod. They could just make the expansion about the Han Dynasty itself and its numerous wars. Or about the invasions of the 5 barbarians in the century after the 3k era.
The Tang Dynasty is big enough to deserve its own main game. The Mongol Empire is big enough to deserve multiple main games to combine the map.

CA is never going to make a standalone game just to focus on the Tang, we already saw them put huge time periods like the Crisis of the Third century in an expansion to Rome 2 instead of a solo title, why should the Tang need their own game and not instead be a expansion so long as they give it enough treatment to make it feel big? Or even a Saga title would seem good for this kind of thing. I would expect at least the era's of China from the Warring States Period all the way to the Tang Dynasty to be open grounds for expansions that could serve as a great way to show off the various bits of Chinese history.

The Mongol Invasions I can agree would be a standalone kinda of expansion like Attila on a far larger scale but I was speaking more of one that first focused on the initial invasion of China by Genghis Kahn with a Mongol Total War coming after that to focus on the later conflicts like his sons around Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. If they made it instead to have both the beginning of Genghis Kahn's conquest to the campaign of his successors that would be great as well.

[Intranetusa]

CA is never going to make a standalone game just to focus on the Tang, we already saw them put huge time periods like the Crisis of the Third century in an expansion to Rome 2 instead of a solo title, why should the Tang need their own game and not instead be a expansion so long as they give it enough treatment to make it feel big? Or even a Saga title would seem good for this kind of thing. I would expect at least the era's of China from the Warring States Period all the way to the Tang Dynasty to be open grounds for expansions that could serve as a great way to show off the various bits of Chinese history.

I disagree.

1) The Tang Dynasty was very large and expansive in scope and they have nothing to do with the 3 Kingdoms period. The Tang Dynasty fought everybody from Japan & Korea in the East to the Abbasaid Caliphate in the West so you're talking about a battlefield bigger than 3K and probably equal in size to Rome 2's battlefield map.

Making the Tang Dynasty (which has a bigger scope than the 3K period) into a mere expansion to a 3K TW main game would make little sense because expansions are supposed to be narrower in scope and more focused than the main game - not the other way arund.

2) They have 3 separate titles focusing on the [Western] Romans. Crisis of the Third Century is literally just 1 century and falls between the timeline of Rome 2's main campaign and Attila TW. Rome 1 and 2 covers roughly 200 BC- 200 AD. Crisis of 3C DLC is 200 AD-300AD. Attila TW is 400+ AD up to 800s AD with Attila's AoC.

Making the Crisis of the 3rd century into a DLC is perfectly fine because it covers 1 century and is basically sandwhiched between 3 Roman-centric games that already covers antiquity in that part of the world.

In fact, it's more surprising that 3K is a full game instead of being a SAGA/expansion game to a main game about the Han Dynasty. That's like Crisis of the 3rd century being the main game and Rome 2 being the expansion.

And it's also surprising that Attila TW was made into a full title at all considering the limited timeframe/scope (I don't consider this a SAGA game considering it was full price with a large scope/lots of content equal to Rome 2). So if they could do it for Attila about the fall of Western Rome which had a narrower scope, I see no reason why they can't do it for a bigger timeperiod/scope such as the Tang Dynasty.

The Mongol Invasions I can agree would be a standalone kinda of expansion like Attila on a far larger scale but I was speaking more of one that first focused on the initial invasion of China by Genghis Kahn with a Mongol Total War coming after that to focus on the later conflicts like his sons around Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. If they made it instead to have both the beginning of Genghis Kahn's conquest to the campaign of his successors that would be great as well.

The Mongol invasion can't even fit into a single "full TW game," let alone an expansion. A Mongol TW game will have a scope larger than any of the previous historical TW games. You can certainly break it down to focus on different areas, but they'd still need to be main games like the Warhammer trilogy rather than simply expansions because each segment would have the scope and scale as a full TW game by themselves.