Page 7 of 49 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 32 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 968

Thread: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

  1. #121
    zachman1201's Avatar Content Staff
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    US
    Posts
    289

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Did a quick video about CA's Blog post about Three Kingdoms.


  2. #122
    Jaketh's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    8,970

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    After Jeff Van Dycks great work on Shogun 2 i'd hope he'd be making a return with Three Kingdoms. That will not be the case unfortunately.

  3. #123

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaketh View Post
    After Jeff Van Dycks great work on Shogun 2 i'd hope he'd be making a return with Three Kingdoms. That will not be the case unfortunately.
    We'll that sucks. Hope to God they are not using Beddow again like their is somehow no one else CA can afford to hire because I am sick to death of him.

  4. #124
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    12,923

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by zachman1201 View Post
    Did a quick video about CA's Blog post about Three Kingdoms.

    Thanks for sharing. I only find fault with one of your points here, but it is a big one.

    You seem very confused about the source material, which is understandable since history is not everyone's forte, let alone Chinese history specifically. You wrote that not much is known about the Three Kingdoms.

    I'm not sure where you got that idea.

    Sure, we are missing details here and there and we don't have a biography on every living person from the time period. However, considering this is ancient history we have a rather full account of the main events and major figures. Thanks to contemporary Chinese historiography, this period of Chinese history is perhaps better understood than some of the hazy events going on simultaneously in the Roman Empire, during Rome's Crisis of the Third Century (coincidentally also featuring a huge empire that was temporarily broken apart into three pieces).

    Your problem here is that you have identified a 14th-century work, actually just a historical-fiction novel by the Yuan-dynasty-era author Luo Guanzhong, while ignoring the original thing it based all its material on, which was the actual history Records of the Three Kingdoms. The latter was actually written in the 3rd century AD, shortly after these events transpired, by the Western-Jin court historian Chen Shou, formerly a bureaucratic official working for the Shu Han kingdom. I've already mentioned this several times now in this thread, but for the sake of clarity (and the off-chance that you didn't read any of my recent posts above and on the previous page), Chen's book is a serious, sober assessment of the time period, a professional work of historiography that, like other Chinese dynastic histories, is aimed at the Confucian literati and ruling establishment for didactic learning about the past. Luo's book, on the other hand, was made simply to entertain the Chinese reading audience of his own day (and illiterate folk who could listen to it being read aloud). He perhaps also wrote the book to provide his Chinese readers with a sense of pride and patriotism in a time when China was still ruled by the Mongol Yuan Dynasty (although not for long, since the native Ming dynasty took over in 1368).

    Luo Guanzhong did not present his book as a serious reading of history, unlike the 12th-century Welshman Geoffrey of Monmouth who promulgated the Arthurian legend with his chronicle and asserted it as as historical fact (something even his medieval contemporaries were skeptical of and criticized heavily). Luo was basically a novelist and fiction writer, who is said to have helped edit The Water Margin, another important Chinese novel. Despite this, in popular culture many people often confuse fictitious people and events recounted in Luo's book for the actual history found easily in Chen Shou's work.

    So when you tell us that we don't know much about the Three Kingdoms and that it's basically romanticized, you got the latter part right, but the former you got miserably wrong. We know plenty about the time period, buttressed obviously by modern archaeology, not just the written record. The fact that it is Romanticized in semi-fictional accounts and in video games like Dynasty Warriors has little to no bearing on the historical studies of this period conducted by ancient, medieval, early modern, and now modern historians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yue Fei View Post
    On the one hand, I'm excited about the game, on the other hand I'm really bothered by the anachronistic armor and weapons used by Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Lu Bu from 900 years later. It would be akin to putting King Alfred the Great in this:



    It just looks completely and utterly wrong to have Late Han/Three Kingdoms era figures wearing and using Song and Yuan dynasty style armour and weapons.
    Personally, I'd pay good money to see some Danes running in terror as Alfred the Great, (Anglo-Saxon) King of Wessex, comes barreling towards them in fully anachronistic 15th-century Gothic or 16th-century Maximilan-style plate armor, preferably while swinging a mace and ordering gunners and arquebusiers with serpentine matchlocks to open fire on their futile shield wall.

    Seriously, though, I think Guan Yu and Zhang Fei in the trailer are wearing Song/Yuan period body armor because that's the period when we have some of the earliest surviving painted depictions of Guan Yu and the like. Naturally, painters and artists of the Song and Yuan periods portrayed more ancient figures in anachronistic fashion befitting their own time period rather than a previous one. If it's any consolation, the soldiers around them appear to be wearing acceptable and historically accurate armor and outfits for the time period, i.e. the late 2nd and early 3rd century AD. For instance, Eastern-Han cavalrymen and a chariot in a mural of the Dahuting tomb of Henan province, dated roughly 200-220 AD:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...astern_Han.jpg


    We also have statuary depicting soldiers, such as these 2nd-century-BC Western Han statues scaled down to about a third the size of actual people, found in the tomb of Emperor Jing of Han (notice the shields and armor of the infantrymen):

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...soldiers_4.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaketh View Post
    After Jeff Van Dycks great work on Shogun 2 i'd hope he'd be making a return with Three Kingdoms. That will not be the case unfortunately.
    That's a damn shame! His songs from Rome Total War and Medieval II are seared into my memory. In fact, I hear them on occasion since I place them both in mods for M2TW.

  5. #125
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Love the fact that we’re getting a brand new HISTORICAL epic set in China. Worried as hell by the martial arts combat shown in the trailer.

  6. #126
    SturmChurro's Avatar Not Vault Boy
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,661

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Well, this is a full on Total War title and not a saga. They could easily do something similar to SHOGUN 2and come out with DLC expansion(s) that focus on different periods in the region. Since it's this "Three Kingdoms" thing I don't think they are really going to diverge much from this central plot, at least in it's main campaign.

    I don't think they are going to be riding dragons, but I hope they have the lords more like they do in SHOGUN 2 rather than Warhammer where even benign melee lords were like 20 feet tall and could take on multiple 120 man units. In the trailer they definitely looked like the latter. Yes, Warhammer 2 does have some nice new animations with polearm/spear units. Check out some high elf closeups, however you can't really personally set unit formation like you used to, can't even make archers spread out. Hopefully those make a return since this is a historical title.

  7. #127

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Can anyone point me to a good source on actual warfare of the time?

    I'm familiar with the events and people, but from what I've read it seems like it was mostly my group of peasant framers against yours, and whoever loses their nerve first loses the battle.

  8. #128

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    A China Total War finally happened?

    Pure insanity.


    ​Scoodlypooper Numero Uno

  9. #129
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Azuchi-jō Tenshu
    Posts
    21,911

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    While not in the novel but rather in folklore, Cao Cao used Taoist magic to summon a swarm of locusts on Lu Bu. The locusts ate all of Lu Bu's grain and he was forced to retreat. This actually did happen when Lu Bu invaded Yan Province but of course chances are it wasn't caused by magic.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  10. #130

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Your memory might be a bit faulty, then, because the whole summoning the winds thing wasn't the only part invoking the supernatural (although as you say it was merely a ruse by Zhuge Liang in Luo Guanzhong's novel).

    For instance, the character Yu Ji (于吉; perhaps based on the Taoist priest Gan Ji of the Eastern Han period) in Luo's 14th-century novel is a magician who is sentenced to death by Sun Ce on charges of heresy and witchcraft, but with a hint that Sun Ce had him killed out of spite and jealousy. He is then haunted by his ghost, who stresses Sun Ce out so much that he eventually becomes ill and dies. There are many similar episodes, especially in regards to the Yellow Turban rebel leaders who are able to muster Taoist magic. In the beginning of the book it is said that the rebel leader Zhang Jue confronted an old man in a cave who handed him a book, allegedly filled with secrets of the cosmos, and informed him that he was an immortal spirit of the southern lands before vanishing into thin air. Zhang Jue was then said to have healed the sick with blessed water (one can find a similarity here to Christian holy water).

    Aside from the supernatural, there are also just downright silly events like Zhang Fei shouting down an army of Cao Cao at a bridge and causing one of his generals to faint and die in sheer fright of him. Lol. There's even a moment where Zhang Fei suggests using a gunpowder bomb to wake up Zhuge Liang from his slumber, who he perceives as being rude for ignoring him and his party waiting outside his home. This is obviously centuries before gunpowder weaponry and warfare existed in China (at the earliest the 11th century AD during the Song dynasty).

    Of course, the official Chinese history Records of the Three Kingdoms offers a far more serious and sober assessment of the contemporary period in which it was written (by Chen Shou, a Western Jin court historian). Gone are the elements of fantasy, magic, and superstition, along with silly tropes and anachronisms of Luo's novel that were meant to entertain Chinese of his own day during the waning years of Yuan-dynasty Mongol rule. This should come as no surprise, since official Chinese historiography was meant for didactic learning aimed at the Confucian literati and ruling establishment. It was not something one read for simple pleasure or amusement, and it often provided nuanced, balanced views of historical subjects, far less the heroic tales and deeds presented in Luo's novel, such as those ascribed to the sworn brothers of the Peach Garden Oath.
    While it's true my memory maybe faulty, as I read this a long while ago, I don't see how any of this contradict what I've said. The warfare depicted in the novel is fairly realistic and historically grounded. You won't get a ghost unit just because a ghost haunted a certain character in the novel.

    You will find stories of magicans, ghosts, spirits in all cultures' histories so it's not exactly noteworthy if the novel had elements of the supernatural in it's events... There are far crazier supernatural accounts in actual historical records in other cultures.

  11. #131

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    Chances are Warring States (or at least the Chu Han Contention period) will be the subject of a major expansion to the title.
    Most likely yeah. It would be silly to pass that.

  12. #132
    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    3,593

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    This Dong Zhuo seems like an interesting character. Hopefully he will be playable from day one.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    In fact I hope there will be more than 3/4 playable factions.

  13. #133
    Yue Fei's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    96

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by ggsimmonds View Post
    Can anyone point me to a good source on actual warfare of the time?

    I'm familiar with the events and people, but from what I've read it seems like it was mostly my group of peasant framers against yours, and whoever loses their nerve first loses the battle.
    Your best bet is to start here: https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/html/1885/42048/index.html Read Rafe's stuff, specifically Generals of the South.

    Additionally, go to this forum: http://the-scholars.com/ if you have any specific questions. There's a great deal of intelligent and well read individuals there.

    To be brief, in the earliest part of the period that is usually considered the "Three Kingdoms", the Yellow Turban Rebellion, the most skilled troops were those situated on the frontiers, and in the capital itself. Once Dong Zhuo came to power, the need for skilled troops became apparent. Cao Cao created a large number of military reforms, as well as monopolizing heavy cavalry supplemented by Di, Xiongnu, and Wuhuan tribes. In addition, he created agricultural reforms that were meant for the support of military forces. Instead of before where ordinary commoners had a military service obligation, Cao Cao created specific military households concentrated in the capital and other major areas. This allowed his military authorities to have stable bases from which reliable troops could be called upon. Most of the other states followed his example (Such as Zhuge Liang's plan was to implement Cao Cao's Tuntian policy in his northern campaigns).

    In the early part of this period (The Yellow Turban Rebellion) military institutions were ad hoc, and largely varied upon the commander's desires. There was no real standardization for the most part until Cao Cao established his power base, but by the time of Dong Zhuo, there had been enough battles and uprisings that most charismatic warlords were able to call upon skilled troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by katsusand View Post
    While it's true my memory maybe faulty, as I read this a long while ago, I don't see how any of this contradict what I've said. The warfare depicted in the novel is fairly realistic and historically grounded. You won't get a ghost unit just because a ghost haunted a certain character in the novel.

    You will find stories of magicans, ghosts, spirits in all cultures' histories so it's not exactly noteworthy if the novel had elements of the supernatural in it's events... There are far crazier supernatural accounts in actual historical records in other cultures.
    The warfare in the novel isn't really historically grounded for the time period. There's quite a lot more duels between officers depicted in the novel than there are in the contemporary historical records of the time.

    - There's Lu Bu dueling Guo Si (Lu Bu was forced to withdraw once Guo Si's cavalry showed up)
    - The action where Guan Yu charged through Yan Liang's troops, impaled him with his spear, cut off his head, and returned to Cao Cao's lines
    - Yan Xing wounding and nearly killing Ma Chao (Ma Chao's men showed up and Yan Xing was forced to withdraw)
    - Taishi Ci and Sun Ce fighting it out hand to hand, both of their retinues show up, the two withdraw; Taishi Ci takes Bofu's helmet, Sun Ce takes Ziyi's short ji.

    Those are the only four that there are actual records for. In addition, the novel makes use of quite a few fantastical style formations (and methods in breaking them), weapons that didn't exist for another 900 years later (the big heavy axes, wolf teeth clubs, crescent halberds, etc), and the utilization of gunpowder signals which didn't exist at the time either. Not only does the novel not give a good depiction of Three Kingdoms era combat, it doesn't even give a good depiction of Song to Ming dynasty combat.
    Last edited by Yue Fei; January 12, 2018 at 02:46 AM.
    "The only thing I'm afraid of is fear." Sir Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington.

  14. #134
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Azuchi-jō Tenshu
    Posts
    21,911

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Due to the inability of the central government to raise and maintain their armies they started to largely rely on nobles and the members of the landed gentry to provide troops in order to supplement the Imperial army.

    For example a commander such as Sun Jian, who was a minor official, could raise a small amount of troops and be rewarded with lands. The land would be used for upkeep and gradually the more campaigns they took part in they would gain more soldiers, spoils and provide their existing armies with experience. Though his family was not of high nobility they had considerable influence in their county and Sun Jian and his father worked as officials in Fuchun county.

    Initially Sun Jian took part in policing actions against pirates in his native Yang province, later took part in the campaigns against the Yellow Turbans in Yu province (under Huangfu Song & Zhu Jun and alongside cavalry commander Cao Cao). From there he quickly worked his way up the ranks and became a notable army commander under Zhang Wen. Both Dong Zhuo and Sun Jian served under Zhang Wen in Liang province to put down a revolt by the Qiang tribes and Han rebels under Han Sui and Bian Zhang. It is curious that Sun Jian suggested to minister Zhang Wen that he should execute Dong Zhuo, something that was not carried out.

    Later on when Dong Zhuo seized power in the capital of Luoyang he allied himself with Yuan Shu, raised a larger army and joined the coalition against the "tyrant" Dong Zhuo together with other officers similar to himself and more powerful members of the nobility who were capable of raising larger armies. Sun Jian distinguished himself by taking the capital Luoyang. After the defeat and assassination of Dong Zhuo, Sun Jian remained allied to Yuan Shu and campaigned against Liu Biao in order to expand his fief. He was killed shortly after in an ambush and was succeeded as head of the Sun clan by his son Sun Ce.

    Both of these leaders would lay the foundation for the state of Wu under Sun Jian's younger son Sun Quan. Sun Quan succeeded his brother as Marquis of Wu in 200 (King of Wu after 220 and then Emperor of Wu in 229 until his death in 252) and challenged Cao Cao at Red Cliff in 208.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; January 12, 2018 at 03:10 AM.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  15. #135

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I have no problem with the game having many fantasy elements personally. The main interest i have in that story are of course the characters and those are written bigger than life.

    The book is a romanticized version of a historical political crisis and honestly i'm cool with that.

    Heroes and villains should totally be a capital element of the game.

  16. #136

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anapoda View Post
    I have no problem with the game having many fantasy elements personally. The main interest i have in that story are of course the characters and those are written bigger than life.

    The book is a romanticized version of a historical political crisis and honestly i'm cool with that.

    Heroes and villains should totally be a capital element of the game.
    The "Fantasy" elements like the magic should probably be left to the wayside. The more mundane substitutions offer so much more in terms of gameplay and aesthetic. You don't need magic to cause rockslides or wildfires. Soldiers can do that just fine with some encouragement.

    The "Romantic" elements I'd say I'm mostly willing to let slide as long as they don't majorly impact gameplay. Armies shouldn't wait around for their generals to finish dueling, and while warrior generals can be top tier fighters, they're not Warhammer one man armies. We had a pretty good system for hero units in Shogun 2. I don't see why it can't work here. Some anachronisms for the sake of aesthetic and tradition are alright so long as they aren't everywhere. Guan Yu can have a guandao so long as I'm not not seeing anyone else with it. Same with Lu Bu and his ridiculous looking double sided ji and Zhang Fei's snake spear. It's not something worth getting an aneurysm over.

    While I like the larger than life characters of the book, the blatantly biased morality and character assassination that it engages is really grating. Most of the book's characters had real life equivalents that were just as forceful of personalities, just not as cut and dry in terms of "good guy/bad guy." I'd say adapting the book's stylistic flair and dramatizations could work pretty well if paired with a more nuanced and true to history portrayal. It doesn't even have to go all the way. Liu Bei can still be a populist hero, just don't make him Gandhi. Cao Cao can still be a ruthlessly ambitious warlord, just don't make him Hitler.

  17. #137
    LestaT's Avatar Primicerius
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Campus Martius
    Posts
    3,762

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Can anyone recommend me a good translated version of both Record amd Romance? The last time I read Romance was probably many, many decades ago and not really a full version (more like children's version).

  18. #138
    Campidoctor
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,952

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    A heavy focus on heroes is also implied in the recently released FAQ:

    "The Han Dynasty is crumbling; the stage is set for a great new epoch, forged by the fires of conquest – the time to establish your legacy is now. But with many warlords eyeing the throne, each with a large army to back up their claim, it’s clear that the future of China will be shaped by its champions."

  19. #139

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna_Gein View Post
    This Dong Zhuo seems like an interesting character. Hopefully he will be playable from day one.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    In fact I hope there will be more than 3/4 playable factions.
    Aside from the main three powers, there were Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Gongsun Zan during the Yellow Turban rebellion. If the game starts from 190CE then these factions should be there I suppose.
    「戦場廻り、運命決まり、生死しらない」

  20. #140

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Huberto View Post
    Love the fact that we’re getting a brand new HISTORICAL epic set in China.
    Same for me.
    I asked for "something new".

    CA delivered, I must say.

Page 7 of 49 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 32 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •