Atheists and Why Common Philosophical Debate Misses the Point

[basics]

I think the root of the problem for Jews is that when Jesus was crucified the leadership stated that His blood was on their hands and whilst only partly true it was certainly on the hands of Gentiles as well which the church systematically has brushed out of history. Hence we had this torrent of antisemitism pervading the world where Christianity was the leading system.

[Cyclops]

I think the root of the problem for Jews is that when Jesus was crucified the leadership stated that His blood was on their hands and whilst only partly true it was certainly on the hands of Gentiles as well which the church systematically has brushed out of history. Hence we had this torrent of antisemitism pervading the world where Christianity was the leading system.

I think that's not really historical basics. Jesus was killed by Roman soldiers, suing a Roman execution method on the orders of a Roman governor. Jewish leaders used stones against religious opponents eg Stephen the protomartyr.

There was rivalry among different Jewish groups: when Saul oversaw the killing of Stephen it was Jews killing another Jew. Jesus execution was probably related to him being called a King of a people under Roman rule: Romans decided who was a king in their Empire, they didn't like men rising up and being called king without their permission.

This is supported by the case of the other Yeshua (Jesus) mentioned in Josephus some decades after Jesus of Nazareth, a simple man with a simple message "a voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the sanctuary, a voice against the bridegroom and the bride, a voice against all the people". When he was taken before the governor and beaten all he said was "woe to Jerusalem". Essentially like Jesus he criticised the Temple so the priesthood hated him, but because he didn't seem to be claiming kingship the Romans released him.

Given Jesus and all his followers, and indeed almost everyone he talked too (we can count the gentiles Jesus speaks to on one hand IIRC: a SyroPhoenecian woman, a Canaanite woman (possibly the same person remembered differently), a Roman centurion, and Pilate), were Jews, from priests to rabbis to fishermen, huge crowds, old ladies, sick men, little children etc. Many of them Jesus stated were the heirs of the Kingdom of Heaven, which is not consistent with them being universally cursed. Peter, Saul, John and many others Jews were surely saved?

Only Matthew states the crowd took Jesus blood on their heads and their children's heads: these are the people who were besieged and massacred 66-70 AD and again in the Bar Kochba revolt 133 AD when Jerusalem was utterly emptied: its likely they and their children were all killed. If you believe Matthew was right, and to be taken literally, maybe you should consider this a curse that God has delivered rather than one he has failed to inflict as yet?

[basics]

Cyclops,

Pilate was quite willing to let Jesus go and to make it easier for the Jews he brokered the deal where a life for a life was offered. Barabbas or Jesus, a killer for a redeemer and they chose the killer. Indeed just to get a little dig at the Jews he used what title they had accused Jesus of blasphemously making and had it carved out and pinned above His head on the cross. In Latin it said, Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews. But of course it was made out in three languages, Latin, Hebrew and Greek and it is said that when one looks at the Hebraic word numbering the four letters that stand out are YHWH.

As He hung there it wasn't Romans who were ridiculing Him from the roadside, no, it was Jews enjoying the spectacle. Barabbas or Jesus, they chose Barabbas making them just as guilty as the Romans for putting Him on that cross. Was it meant to be? Of course it was as He was the Lamb of God sacrificed before the foundations of the world.

[Cyclops]

Cyclops,

Pilate was quite willing to let Jesus go and to make it easier for the Jews he brokered the deal where a life for a life was offered. Barabbas or Jesus, a killer for a redeemer and they chose the killer. Indeed just to get a little dig at the Jews he used what title they had accused Jesus of blasphemously making and had it carved out and pinned above His head on the cross. In Latin it said, Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews. But of course it was made out in three languages, Latin, Hebrew and Greek and it is said that when one looks at the Hebraic word numbering the four letters that stand out are YHWH.

As He hung there it wasn't Romans who were ridiculing Him from the roadside, no, it was Jews enjoying the spectacle. Barabbas or Jesus, they chose Barabbas making them just as guilty as the Romans for putting Him on that cross. Was it meant to be? Of course it was as He was the Lamb of God sacrificed before the foundations of the world.

#NotAllJews seriously though, both Marys were Jews and neither asked for Jesus to die: eleven of the twelve Apostles did not want Jesus killed (all Jews), and lets assume people like Lazarus held Jesus in respect even after his arrest.

You know I don't accept Gospel as, well gospel, but even (for the sake of argument) allowing that Matthew is accurate, not all Jews asked to be cursed, and its quite likely all the Jews who asked to be cursed were killed, or their descendants were killed in the two savage Roman punitive actions. Its very likely the majority of Jews alive at the time of Jesus did not even live in areas where Jesus ministered and had not heard of him until his crucifixion: there were Babylonian Jews, communities in Damascus and Tarsus and a huge population in Egypt (probably not the million Philo suggests but still a lot). Surely the Jerusalem mob, themselves not all Jews, cannot be held to speak for all Jews, including the followers of Jesus?

[fkizz]

Surely the Jerusalem mob, themselves not all Jews, cannot be held to speak for all Jews, including the followers of Jesus?

Following the KJV as the only literal word of God hypothesis, it's as basics said. He has the correct conclusion of a literalistic reading. Having the Christ blood on your hands and in your ancestors hands is an extremely strong statement that obviously hints at a curse or worse.

I could say it was a certain small number of Pharisees+Roman administrators instigating the plot, and that Rabbinical Judaism didn't even exist back then, due to Second Temple Judaism; meaning a small elite as opposed to whole population of Judeah, but you consider that change in denomination from "Jew" to "Pharisee" as "anti-Semitic", so I can't help you any more than this.

Obviously those who turned to Christ are considered saved by Christianity, because there are languages not anglo-saxonic, where "jew" and "christian" refer to religious affiliation, rather than to bloodline.
As in Jew as a member of Judaism, Christian as a member of Christianism.
Example: There are Jews without Jewish bloodline. They are converts to Judaism.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I never thought I would find KJV-onlyists who are also atheist

[basics]

#NotAllJews seriously though, both Marys were Jews and neither asked for Jesus to die: eleven of the twelve Apostles did not want Jesus killed (all Jews), and lets assume people like Lazarus held Jesus in respect even after his arrest.

You know I don't accept Gospel as, well gospel, but even (for the sake of argument) allowing that Matthew is accurate, not all Jews asked to be cursed, and its quite likely all the Jews who asked to be cursed were killed, or their descendants were killed in the two savage Roman punitive actions. Its very likely the majority of Jews alive at the time of Jesus did not even live in areas where Jesus ministered and had not heard of him until his crucifixion: there were Babylonian Jews, communities in Damascus and Tarsus and a huge population in Egypt (probably not the million Philo suggests but still a lot). Surely the Jerusalem mob, themselves not all Jews, cannot be held to speak for all Jews, including the followers of Jesus?

Cyclops,

You have to put the saying into context because the Sanhedrin were the ruling council for all Jews no matter where they lived. Or, to put a generalisation on it, why should all Muslims believe Mohammed's word when most of them had never heard of him, never mind seen him, yet they are Muslims? Therefore the saying that His blood is upon our hands applies in this case to any Jew. To my knowledge that saying has never been rescinded by any Jewish leadership right up until this day. Where Jews have actually been born again by the Spirit of God then that is a completely different ball game inasmuch as their new thinking is purely personal through personal experience. Touching on Mary, she was told by the prophetess that she herself would also need a Saviour and yet she had just taken eight day old Jesus to be circumcised showing us that her personal sin had yet to be taken away. I know from the readings that some of His followers had a certain degree of Spirit in them but the main force of conversion came upon them on the day of Pentecost which was associated with the presenting of the first-fruits to God. All them that were in that room received the full indwelling of the Holy Spirit meaning that was the day they were born again and before the day was out over three thousand had been converted.

The important thing is that all Jews with the exception of Jesus were sinners and still are sinners like all the rest of us. The Gospel is the good news that any sinner can have that burden taken from off them by the blood of Jesus Christ. His blood payed the price for sin at the cross for any that believe it to be true. As Jesus said, " No man can come to the Father except by Me, and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." It is God in His three Persons who breaks down the hard hearted to the point that they realise how sinful they are and when that happens He steps in to convert them. There has never been, nor can ever be, a religion which can make such an offer. Oh they can offer one many things of this world but what they cannot offer is the finality of peace to be with God for the rest of eternity, why? Because only blood pays for sin and only Jesus' blood was pure enough to do that.