A Fix to Instant Squares

[Mr. Doran]

At last a fix to instantly forming squares and all of the negative effects associated with them.

• Riders can no longer be thrown from their horses
• Squares take longer to form up
• Soldiers not formed into the square can be butchered by charging cavalry

The basic principles of this work around goes as follows.

In battle entities:
1. The riders can and will be thrown from their horses if the group is moving past the hard coded speed threshold. From current testing the highest speed threshold we are using that does not cause the riders to be thrown when charging a square is 4.7 as the charging speed.
2. In order for the square to not form up instantly the acceleration and deceleration values need to be changed. There are possible different ways to accomplish this but an example of one of our working values is as follows.
Walk speed: 1.65
Acceleration: 0.1
Deceleration: 0.3
3. To further decrease the amount of time it takes to get into a square and increase the vulnerability per model we are currently testing and using pike square over hollow square as the models are more likely to have their backs to charging enemy cavalry when forming and generally take longer to form up.

In KV Rules

Current functioning values
hnbonus_bayonet 7
hnbonus cavalry v infantry 17
hnbonus melee cavalr v square infantry 0

This work around has specific limitations on speed of charging cavalry and infantry in order to work but as far as I know the only work around of the negative effects square produces. It is also important to know that this was tested in the environment of Napoleonic Total War III and with the use of the attack, defense, charge bonus, etc values that are included in the mod.

If you have any questions feel free to ask them bellow.

and if you end up including this work around in your own mod please say "Do it Again Harout and Doran!" in your credit list.

[Lord Davn]

Very promising work gentlemen

[Sirlion]

Every step towards a working square is a win in itself. However, as far as I know, the bonus is applied instantly, no matter how much time the unit takes to form square. So what exactly is this accomplishing other than "maybe" having some single men turned the wrong way? Considering the 1 vs 1 dice roll calculations the single men have to sit through dont take into account pitch yaw and roll but just pure stats - and more often than not they sit there doing nothing with their idle battle animations waiting for the calcs to end, and when they do, they simply slide into each other to start the silly matching animation - I find it difficult to understand the difference.

[Mr. Doran]

Every step towards a working square is a win in itself. However, as far as I know, the bonus is applied instantly, no matter how much time the unit takes to form square. So what exactly is this accomplishing other than "maybe" having some single men turned the wrong way? Considering the 1 vs 1 dice roll calculations the single men have to sit through dont take into account pitch yaw and roll but just pure stats - and more often than not they sit there doing nothing with their idle battle animations waiting for the calcs to end, and when they do, they simply slide into each other to start the silly matching animation - I find it difficult to understand the difference.

So there are a few variables at work that gives a distinct practical result over the default square; one of which I failed to mention. We gutted the silly dueling animations so the combat interactions jump instantly to kill or block. This significantly increases the casualty rate for units that are outside of the square; the longer of course it takes for them to enter the square the more exposed they are.

There has been an additional break through into producing a more functioning and realistic square through further decreasing the acceleration of infantry. This has also allowed us to making hollow squares, which tend to form up faster, functional due to the fact the forming infantry take considerable casualties compared to the ones formed up. There is a very old post by Jack Lusted saying the bonus is not applied until the square is fully formed.

The reason squares are only 2 ranks deep is simple. The number of men in units is really too low to have a 4 rank square work well.

As for the issues of square bonus, cavalry charging square and how squares fire there have been some changes in Napoleon. First off, infantry in square do not get their melee bonus v cavalry until fully formed up. Secondly there are now cavalry refusals in the game. This means that when cavalry attack a square the horses will rear up and then walk into combat meaning squares will not be broken by cavalry and cavalry effectively lose their charge bonus v squares. Squares have also been changed so men fire independently allowing them to better engage cavalry.

We are still testing the validity of what he says but true or not what has been accomplished for hollow square is this:

1. Infantry forming up are much more vulnerable to cavalry attack and squares attacked in their early stages of formations can be broken.

2. Infantry formed into a complete square can fend off heavy cavalry attacks almost every time and especially with well timed volley fire and mutual support fire from other squares.


I will have a new video posted soon showing the hollow squares.

[JaM]

Originally Posted by Jack Lusted

The reason squares are only 2 ranks deep is simple. The number of men in units is really too low to have a 4 rank square work well.

I find Jack Lusted's argument the funniest and most ridiculous, considering they actually implemented pike square, which is even smaller, and works a lot better than their 2rank hollow square... having 160 men in 4 deep square would still produce a square that is larger than the Pike Square... simple math

It just shows they spent minimum time investigating these things, and went the easy way, with only using ETW formations in NTW...

but back to Pike Square, from my testing, it is superior in every way to 2-rank hollow square, as you can adopt it very quickly from marching column (9 ranks deep) It practically gives player big advantage if he marches his infantry in such formations, as he doesn't have to be afraid of cavalry anymore. Of course Full square is a lot more vulnerable to artillery when it gets hit, but at the other side, it has smaller frontage, therefore it is smaller target.

Oh, and one thing to share - you dont even need to change the acceleration/deceleration values to make Line adopting the full square longer.. all you need is to reduce the turn rate values vs walk/run values.

[LEGIO_Desaix]

I find Jack Lusted's argument the funniest and most ridiculous, considering they actually implemented pike square, which is even smaller, and works a lot better than their 2rank hollow square... having 160 men in 4 deep square would still produce a square that is larger than the Pike Square... simple math

It just shows they spent minimum time investigating these things, and went the easy way, with only using ETW formations in NTW...

but back to Pike Square, from my testing, it is superior in every way to 2-rank hollow square, as you can adopt it very quickly from marching column (9 ranks deep) It practically gives player big advantage if he marches his infantry in such formations, as he doesn't have to be afraid of cavalry anymore. Of course Full square is a lot more vulnerable to artillery when it gets hit, but at the other side, it has smaller frontage, therefore it is smaller target.

Oh, and one thing to share - you dont even need to change the acceleration/deceleration values to make Line adopting the full square longer.. all you need is to reduce the turn rate values vs walk/run values.

Reducing wheeling ratio for infantry sometimes work, sometimes (actaully the major part of times) it doesn't.

Regarding CA approach to square only players have to be blamed, I still remember well that when I started my crusade against this stupid bonus applied as soon as you press the button (same for the lack of a morale bonus to column although already written in the tables) few supported my request and the justification was "this is a game, give us a break, we like to play with a F1 cavalry so you need this unhistorical square to compensate".

[JaM]

yeah, i remember