Macedonian Campaign Progression (Early game)

[john909]

Hello,

I find it quite interesting and hard with the Macedonians. Almost all neighbours are hostile and usually declare war and invade. After some attempts I decided the best approach was to blitzkrieg Aetolians then eradicate Sparta and Athens, so that I get control of Greece. To achieve that I had to use mercenaries and loot some settlements to get some gold. As a result Public Order is in the high reds.

While I was thinking I was in a good position Romans in a demonstration of power seize Apollonia (eliminating Epirus) and next turn Epidamnos (eliminating Ardiaei) - it is funny as Rome had green relations with Ardiaei (!) sometimes the AI doesn't make any sense. And there I have 2 and one half stack of Romans threatening me, raiding and causing Rebellions (food shortage, income penalty) plus I have Odrysians on the North with who I am at war as well. Seeking desperately some diplomatic gains here and there (mostly Ptolemaioi and Pergamon) but without success.

I have a saved game just before the Roman invasion on Greece. Game settings are Hard difficulty for Campaign, Normal for Battles. Let me know of your progression for who is interested.

Antigonidai DEI_NH_Early.rar

[Garbad]

I usually try to backstab epirus before the romans land. This both makes them like me and keeps them out of greece.

[motaboy]

Just another Macedon thread...

You have strong units already at start and it isn't that hard to defeat every army in battle - some navy units help to defeat roman invasions. The only difficulty I had with Macedon was to avoid war with Rome until they have the Marius Reform

[Iridium31]

The difficulty of the starting position for Macedon is proportional to how aggressively you pacify the neighboring plebs. If you move quickly it's really not a difficult faction to pick. If you go slow it can get hard very quickly because you'll be at war with every nearby neighbor.

Uniting Greece is the optimal starting path, primarily because they already have Hellenic culture. Take Larissa followed by Athens and Sparta. From there you should take Knossos and Apollonia to get the entire Makedonia and Hellas provinces for access to edicts. The order here is less important, and it's viable in the latest 1.2.2f build to go for Knossos first because Rome doesn't steamroll Epirus quite so hard. Once you've done that getting trade/non-aggression with Rome is ideal because it lets you dedicate the majority of your resources into taking Thrake. Once you have all three of those provinces you should be swimming in money and be in relatively good shape.

Avoiding war with Rome can be tricky. The long and short of it is you should use Epirus to improve relations with them and try as hard and as quickly as possible to get non-aggression and trade with them. If you have to toss money at them to get this done do so. It's not only big because it lets you focus your conquests elsewhere but for income purposes. Carthage has a tendency to follow suit with Rome in trade and non-aggression, ironically (they're usually still best buds at this point). Make sure to leave a small army with 4ish pikes or hoplites garrisoned in Apollonia to deter Rome from trying to backstab you there (the mere presence of those units+the garrison typically makes them reluctant to attack).

In terms of tips for peace with Rome.... Declare war on Epirus early if needed. Just make sure you're at war with them before Rome kicks them out of Italy. In battles with them it also helps to kill the captives. The AI looks kindly on mistreating prisoners of their enemies . Much of the behavior here is likely pre-determined at the game start. In some cases doing everything perfectly won't matter. If you end up at war with Rome either turtle with a small force in Apollonia and proceed to conquer the Thracians to the north or turtle in both Pella/Apollonia with small armies, sneak into southern Italy and put the Romans in their place.

For public order I'd recommend using the administration diplomatic missions liberally. Those make a huge difference, arguably too much of one in fact. Just make sure you try to do it with characters for your political party so you don't tank your influence. It's also a good idea to sit a naked general in Pella and one somewhere in the Hellas province and give them governor traits on level up, as well as public order/admin ancillaries. You can further benefit by using them to recruit new units for your armies and set your main forces passing through on patrol. Lastly, get diplomats for income/culture/public order and drop any champions out of passing through armies to spread news of your awesomeness. It's not unheard of to get +30 PO in a turn if you combine all of this together.

Keep in mind, at least against the AI, your potential army builds are far superior to nearby neighbors. Throw in 4-8ish pikes as your core, 2-4 hoplites, a skirmisher cavalry or two and fill in various other light/skirmish troops. It should be fairly easy to heroic victory your way to controlling Makedonia/Hellas provinces. The Thracians are a bit more difficult to handle due to their lawnmower men and the fact their skirmishers are a pain in the ass to deal with. You still shouldn't have much trouble enslaving them though.

Sorry for the wall of text . When I get time I'll try out the save for a break from my Parthia campaign.

[john909]

I usually try to backstab epirus before the romans land. This both makes them like me and keeps them out of greece.

Makes sense, if only they had not dow on me at few first rounds. Actually the moment they 'secured Magna Grecia' I got into their shortlist.

Just another Macedon thread...

You have strong units already at start and it isn't that hard to defeat every army in battle - some navy units help to defeat roman invasions. The only difficulty I had with Macedon was to avoid war with Rome until they have the Marius Reform

I had a battle against a Roman stack who was into a fort against my one and half stack (practically all my army) and I can tell you I didn't feel the 'strong units already' over the early era Roman maniples.

The difficulty of the starting position for Macedon is proportional to how aggressively you pacify the neighboring plebs. If you move quickly it's really not a difficult faction to pick. If you go slow it can get hard very quickly because you'll be at war with every nearby neighbor.

The save game I attached is round 18. It's a decent effort (in terms of time) to deal with Aetolians, Sparta, Athens and progress a bit economically. I don't have enough time or the resources to go for Knossos that early because I have Odrysians on the North who are hostile and look for the opportunity to invade Pella.

The problem is that after the new patch (on Hard difficulty) the AI behavior is very aggressive to the extent of 'making no sense'. As I wrote Rome had green relations with Ardiaei and eliminated them in a snap. I liberate Triballi and after two rounds they dow me (!). Triballi is a faction that starts with relations on the green against Macedon. I have many examples where diplomacy is so funny - in this last save I liberate Epirus from Rome and next round they terminate Military alliance with me and so on.

You are right in all the things you propose (I already use a governor at Pella) for buffing PO but the problem is that besides the army patrolling all other things come at a cost and my economy is very tight at the moment.

As I see it I either can continue that save where I will surely struggle against Rome for quite some time (some interesting fights too I assume). Or to make a better strategic approach I could try and go for Epirus early on and see how the rest of the world reacts. Speaking of fighting Romans I find the best approach against them are ambushes or even Fort battles (Romans fortify quite often) if only Pikes were just a little bit better at dealing damage. My main army consists of 2x Basilikoi Peltastai Phalangitai (Damage Dealers Pikemen), 4x Chalkaspides (Regular Pikemen), 6 Epistratoi Hoplitai (Levy Hoplites), 2x Hippakontistai (Skirmish Light Cavalry) and 5 Psiloi Toxotai (Archers) which is a flexible composition against most situations. Another trick I 've used in the past is raising small armies to get advantage of the generals units' strength (Macedon has the Hypaspistai Somatophylakes which is a heavy 300 man hoplite unit) but again cost is the problem.

Waiting for the next DEI patch (Pikes might get that small buff needed) and see.

[Iridium31]

Well, the first recommendation is to avoid using levy troops in your armies. If you have to use smaller armies to field quality troops it's still the better road to take. You can work around number issues far easier than half your army running for the hills after 15 seconds of combat.

Personally, I avoid archers early game as Macedon. Barring certain Thracian units all of your early game conflicts are going to be against army compositions featuring heavily armored units. About the only way archers are going to impact these units is if they can get right up on their rear and freely bomb them with arrows at close range. In such situations I'd rather have javelins or slingers. The only possible exception would be Cretan Archers.

The Iphicratean Early Peltasts and both Thracian and Agrianian mercenary skirmishers come highly recommended. Not only can they bring the pain when hitting the rear of virtually anything at close range, they hold up surprisingly well in melee with better, heavier infantry. They won't come out on top but they can at least hold down the flanks until help arrives, pin units for your cavalry to get a clean charge, perform flanking duties and have some usefulness once they've depleted their ammunition. I usually run at least 2-5 of some combination of these per stack.

Levy hoplites in particular get knocked around like a rag doll, especially against Rome. For the most part you should be relying on pikes as infantry. The main reason hoplites even get added to the mix is to protect the flanks or act as reserves to plug weak points in the pike line. In a lot of my battles they end up getting surrounded by infantry and beat on but take forever to go down (where hoplites shine IMO), freeing everything up to focus on more pressing concerns.

Skirmisher cavalry are a strong point that should be exploited, so you're good there. Even the light javelin variety can take it to missile units in melee. They're a very good counter to hoplites and, like foot javelin skirmishers, can light units up if they can get in close and rain javelins on the rear. I usually run one or two of these, ideally Tarantine cavalry if funding permits. In addition, if funds permit I add a unit of Thessalian or Sarissa cavalry and use them in concert with my general Companion cavalry to cycle charge anything pinned by pikes.

I'd also recommend using your general cavalry early and often. For many factions it makes sense to hold your general until the right point but for Macedonia I disagree with this approach. The unit has 100 horses so it won't lose to other heavy cavalry units, can obliterate virtually any infantry with a clean rear charge and is sturdy enough such that your general is unlikely to die. About the only huge threat to it is heavy javelin fire to the rear/flanks.

Lastly, try using pikes more defensively. With the recent changes it would seem charging infantry can largely bypass the pike range advantage if they contact them while the pikes are moving. If you walk your pike line up to the other infantry, come to a complete stop before contact and let the other infantry come to them this doesn't seem to happen. Once the lines clash and the charging infantry come to a stop you can issue single-click attack orders.

As a point of reference I tend to shoot for taking Larissa turn 2, Athens turn 3 and Sparta turn 4 in my campaigns. I only loot Athens, the rest get occupied. Since Knossos usually throws mostly levy hoplites in it's armies I often just go with what I have left after Sparta and hit them as soon as possible, within the next 3-4 turns.

[john909]

Ok I replayed the campaign, and rushed as you describe Aetolians, Athens and finally Sparta (round 5). Then decided to turn against Epirus and that made Rome happy. After that I concentrated on capturing Thrace since it is a wealthy province to boost my income and now I am in a very good spot ready to invade minor asia. So far so good.

I am not so fond of Peltasts and seldom I have more than one or two units and that is because of low ammo. I like archers a lot. First they are dirt cheap and their concentrated fire works wonders causing decent damage and morale penalties. Plus their fire shot is a must for attacking forts where I burn all towers and the walls to open holes and get inside (many heroic victories that way). Slingers don't seem that good against heavy armor but are very efficient against enemy skirmisher units.

I disagree about Levy hoplites. For the early game they are a decent unit and in phalanx mode can hold the line giving the option for an encircling maneuver on the enemy. I also recommend the AoR Corinthian Hoplites, low armor and low morale, but 300 men in phalanx mode, this is a brilliant early-era unit as well.

From all the available mercenaries the Agrianian Pelekophoroi are top value. Not only they are extremely mobile but their axe is so deadly.

Skirmisher Cavalry javelin is lethal as well. I was shocked watching two such units cutting in pieces an Athenian general when shooting his phalanx in the back.

You are right about the Pikes I hadn't noticed and was wondering why my Pike lines were breaking and being swarmed by enemies. I also now apply deeper formations for the same reason.

You are also right about using your general as a fighting unit as companions are extremely powerful and often turn the tide in your favor.

Thanks for the advice made my game a lot more fun and easier.

[Geffalrus]

Lawnmower men. That's genius.

[Satansblofish]

Mmm, I never get tired of these threads! So good

My attempts to recreate Alexanders empire always get stuck expanding north and getting bogged down in barbarian wars and my expansion east becomes limited. Gonna get it right one of these times...

[Lord Oakenthrone]

I am not so fond of Peltasts and seldom I have more than one or two units and that is because of low ammo. I like archers a lot. First they are dirt cheap and their concentrated fire works wonders causing decent damage and morale penalties. Plus their fire shot is a must for attacking forts where I burn all towers and the walls to open holes and get inside (many heroic victories that way). Slingers don't seem that good against heavy armor but are very efficient against enemy skirmisher units.

A good alternative to peltasts are the AOR dart slingers in Sicily/Syracuse area, they have similar range to javelins but these units equip loads more ammo and with good missile penetration they score well against heavily armoured units

also they fire in an arc like javelins/arrows thus making great troops for putting behind your pike line, and if you can get on the flanks even with just a few of these bad units? they clean up house!

[Iridium31]

I hold peltasts in high regard due to their flexibility/versatility. There are few jobs they cannot perform to at least some degree. It's important to field support troops with an ability to shine in the flexibility department for pike centered armies/factions. After all, the achilles heel of pikes is their complete lack of flexibility.

Peltasts are a hard counter to hoplites when/if you get control of the flank of the enemy army as well, making them a very good choice during your Greek conquests. While archers and slingers can perform the same role by firing at the rear/flanks of a hoplite unit they're not going to burn it down as quickly as concentrated javelin fire.

The concern with the Thracians is the sheer volume of infantry they tend to throw in their armies, and the fact their own skirmishers can hold up in melee. It's easy to get overwhelmed and surrounded. It's far less of a problem when you can throw peltasts into the fray in a pinch, burn down a unit here or there with concentrated fire quickly and eat missile fire with them to prevent it from going on your pikes . This area becomes a far bigger concern when fighting at a numbers disadvantage.

The archer comments aren't necessarily an indication western archers are a bad unit. Like everything they have their uses and tossing some into the mix isn't necessarily a bad idea. Sieges and exploiting fire arrows are examples of that. I'm just saying if given a choice between a standard archer or a peltast unit I'd go with the latter of the two in most cases. Much of that may be related to play style.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

A good alternative to peltasts are the AOR dart slingers in Sicily/Syracuse area, they have similar range to javelins but these units equip loads more ammo and with good missile penetration they score well against heavily armoured units

also they fire in an arc like javelins/arrows thus making great troops for putting behind your pike line, and if you can get on the flanks even with just a few of these bad units? they clean up house!

I always liked slingers. There was a reason why Hannibal trained and equipped hundreds of them for facing the Romans.

[Dardo21]

In my campaign I spend most of my attention and money on diplomacy, getting pacts with the nations in Thrace, while trying to preserve peace with Athens and Sparta, so i could backstab Epirus.