I'm not presenting any side in this debate. I'm just pointing out flawed arguments.
Oh, and this post contains a straw man:
"But that's fine with you" - you're constructing an opinion for me, "I think that speaks for itself" - you're tearing down that constructed opinion. As with all straw man arguments... it's much easier to argue against me when you're making up what I'm saying.
From what I can see... most of this thread is full of fallacies. People are using individual cases as evidence of wider trends, they're stating opinion as fact and they're cherry picking data out of context. I wouldn't get involved in this debate. Cognitive biases are already in place.