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Thread: The Fall of the West (RELEASED)

  1. #1

    Icon1 The Fall of the West (RELEASED)

    The Dark Ages: Fall of the West



    Decided to expand the Dark Ages series to include the late Roman period. This new expansion will start with a base late Roman Empire military and economic system I am creating for the 356 AD update and which I will then use for other important era's including Constantine and the Tetrarchy, Diocletian and a redone vanilla 395 campaign among others. Using the Notitia Dignitatum, advice from Roman era historical experts like Castellan and research I have done I hope to create a new take on this period that focuses on recreating the historical realities of the military and economy of the late Roman Empire. While I dont plan on recreating every single comitatenses, palitini and limitanei unit I will be adding in the most historically relevant, introducing a new system that recreates how many units used both light and heavy contingents and updating all unit numbers to get a much better feel of playing as elite Roman forces against overwhelming barbarian armies. As part of this you will also be able to experience a much more historically accurate starting campaign that includes the arms and armor factories listed in the Notitia Dignitatum and an actual Limes system along the Rhine and Danube.

    Roma Victor!


    DOWNLOAD:

    395 Grand Campaign Historical Overhaul:

    Google Drive Download Link:
    https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1XmANlASlCmBhmPQr09_Jn88QdZHA4y5N&export=download

    Steam Page and Download Link:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1380497821
    Last edited by Athos187; May 07, 2018 at 04:23 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Western Roman Imperial Army

    Legio Tertiana Italica:





    Legio Undecimani:



    Brachiati Auxilia:





    Cornuti Auxilia:





    Palatini:



    Legio Secunda Britannica (Credits for Shield: Author: CJiaBa, Mod: Judex - Rex):




    Comes:



    Magister Militum:



    Equites Vexillationes:



    Equites Dalmatae:



    Equites Promoti:



    Scholae Palatina:



    Contarii:



    Catafractarii:



    Scholae Gentiles:



    Herculani Seniores:



    Sagitarii:



    Ballistarii:



    Palatini Ballistarii:



    Palatini Ballistarii Ravennatis:



    Limitanei:



    Foederati Alamanni Iulcantes:



    More to Come!
    Last edited by Athos187; December 15, 2017 at 10:15 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Eastern Roman Imperial Army

    Legio Quinta Macedonica:




    Prima Flavia Constantia:



    Legio Tertia Diocletiana Thebaeorum (Credits for Shield: Author: CJiaBa, Mod: Judex - Rex):



    Legio Quartodecimani:



    Equites Exploratores:



    Equites Persae Clibinarii:


    Equites Clibinarii Sagittarii:



    Comes:



    Sagittarii Comitatenses:

    Last edited by Athos187; December 24, 2017 at 03:21 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Reserved for Campaign

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    The Franks:

    "The military equipment of this people the Franks is very simple ... They do not know the use of the coat of mail or greaves and the majority leave the head uncovered, only a few wear the helmet. They have their chests bare and backs naked to the loins, they cover their thighs with either leather or linen. They do not serve on horseback except in very rare cases. Fighting on foot is both habitual and a national custom and they are proficient in this. At the hip they wear a sword and on the left side their shield is attached. They have neither bows nor slings, no missile weapons except the double edged axe and the angon which they use most often. The angons are spears which are neither very short nor very long. They can be used, if necessary, for throwing like a javelin, and also in hand to hand combat." - Agathias

    Frankish Nobles:





    Frank Raiders:


    Frank Heerbann:



    Veteran Heerbann:




    Royal Heerbann:



    The Suebi:
    Last edited by Athos187; January 12, 2018 at 03:01 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Reserved for Nomadic Units

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Sasanian Imperial Army:

    In the character of their warfare, the Persians of the Sasanian period differed greatly from their forebears under the Achaemenid kings. The principal changes which time had brought about were an almost entire disuse of the war chariot, the advance of the elephant corps into a very prominent and important position, and the increased use and pre-eminence of cavalry on the Parthian model, including both heavy cataphracts and horse-archers. Four main arms of the service were recognized, each standing on a different level: the elephants, the horse, the archers, and the ordinary footmen.

    Persian Nobles:



    Zhayedan Immortal Cavalry:



    Persian Mounted Archers:



    Gyan-Avspar:



    Savaran Cataphracts:



    Pushtighban Cataphracts:



    Persian Cataphracts:



    Savaran Sardar:




    Persian Horsemen:



    Lakhmid Horsemen:



    Persian Mounted Bowmen:



    Kurdish Skirmishers:



    Persian Skirmishers:



    Armenian Skirmishers:


    Persian Slingers:



    Kurdish Archers:



    Persian Archers:



    Persian Bow Levy:



    Dailamite Nobles:



    Sogdian Infantry:



    Persian Infantry:



    Immortal Guard:



    Immortal Infantry:



    Armenian Infantry:



    Persian Levy:



    Paighan Infantry:



    Spahbed:



    Dailamite Infantry:



    Pretty happy with these but I havent put quite as much research into them as I have with other factions so any historical feedback would be appreciated. Removed all the unhistorical units like crossbowmen, camel mounted troops and naft throwers. Also want to rename all of the units in Aramaic or Middle Persian but I havent found an online language translator so any help with those would be appreciated.

    Also will be adding the elephant units soon which were an important part of their armies.
    Last edited by Athos187; January 12, 2018 at 02:54 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Ok, let me first congratulate you. You're an amazing character and i don't know how you find time and energy to produce so much content. Thank you for sharing all that with us.
    I've been here for a long time, could even say i'm a TW veteran now, however, didn't have time to play games lately. Late Roman era is my favorite niche, and it's nice to see people make mods set in the era.
    Needless to say, i'm impressed by the screenshots. You could also take a look at the old R:TW mod, Somnium Apostate Iuliani here at the forum. Those guys did a fantastic job too.

    If my memory serves me, based on the several books i read some years ago, i'd like to mention few things. I think you already did it great, just to express some ideas.

    1. Try not to overdue the armor with the Romans. Yes, they were a superior military machine, but late era state experienced a serious inflation and financial difficulties. The lesser troops seem to have had very little armor. Also, it would seem leather armor was also used in addition to a metallic one. Reading from Ammianus and Vegetius implies that even elite Auxilia Palatina troops didn't always have metal armor, such is when raiding across the Rhine. At the legendary battle of Strasbourg, 356AD, Ammianus does not mention front ranks Palatinae as wearing body armor, although it is unlikely they would have stood in the front ranks without any armor. Limitanei, as you already know, probably had very little metal armor.
    2. I see you use quite some number of metal cuirass. Some of your infantry and cavalry have so much cuirass. Did you find some references among the historians about it? I don't know if they were used so much, unless for officers. It was quite expensive and difficult to make properly.
    3. The records, from Strasbourg and Adrianople campaign indicate the Roman infantry used thrusting spears to a great extent. As Ross Cowan, Ian Hughes and other modern historians noted the late Roman army probably preferred to fight "at arms length", i.e. to use tightly packed spear armed formations, better suited for defensive than offensive. But, such formations would prevent high causalities among the Romans which was of utmost importance. Ofc, many troops had both hasta and spatha and they would switch to spatha if hasta got broken, but i think the game's engine does not allow this?
    4. Keep in mind that Auxilia Palatina troops originated in the west, and were first recruited by the Constantine's father along the Rhine. Historian Michael Spiedel wrote about them. It seems until the 395AD such troops were only stationed in the west and they were quite reluctant to move to other AOs, as evidenced by the problems Julian had when starting off invasion of Sassanid Persia (they started a mutiny). In 395AD military got divided in some way and the Aux. Palatinae troops appeared in the east, usually with the "Iuniores" suffix while those in the west were designated "Seniores", iirc. You should double check this, it was a long time ago i read about them.

    Take your time, i'll be watching this space as it seems you're about to produce a really great mod. Best of luck!

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Great feedback

    I'll look at all of this stuff as I continue to work on the mod

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Hello,

    nice to see a new mod with a great starting date! :-)
    Anyway, just a couple of quick remarks on your (beautifull) units.
    1. you can't mix the shield pattern in the same unit, for the very good reason that they precisly indicate the unit. So one shield pattern = one unit.
    for instance you mixed the shield pattern of the secundani (your legio secunda britannica), wich is correct, with the one of the britones seniores, a palatinian unit based in illyricum.

    2. If you're going to recreate the very real unit from the notita (wich is so cool ! :-) ), you will have to avoid generical units like "palatini" or "equites vexillationes". Palatini describe the status of a unit (the highest, at the disposal of the Emperor in his palace), not a unit. A vexillatio is the name the late romans gave to a mounted unit. So basically every mounted unit of the regular army is a vexillation (except the cuneus, smaller, and the ala, from the border garrisons).

    Criticize is alawys easier than modding, so don't hesitate to ask me more detailed info via MP :-)

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Thanks for the heads up on the secunda britannica, I was actually using the secunda shields from Judex Rex and I believe he had both of those patterns for them but I'll look at that. I pretty much go for single unit shield patterns for everyone else except the cavalry which I was told used varied shield patterns.

    I will be focusing on having all of the units being named, right now I'm actually working on including named cataphractarii and clibinarii units. Those palatini were just a renamed palatini guard unit from vanilla for the general but I will probably try and research a real unit I can use for the general foot guard unit.

    As for the equites vexillationes, any ideas for a named cavalry unit I can use as the scouts? Dont think everyone would want multiple scout units.

    Please do continue to critique the mod, otherwise I'll just get lazy and it wont be as good as it can be

  12. #12
    rbt's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    I love that dark and raw units look, keep going with really good work mate!

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Thanks, been moving a bit slower lately but I have a nice long christmas holiday coming up and I will definitely be able to put up an eastern roman preview and then a german one soon after that.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Thx Athos !
    Have nice christmas holiday for you !

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Quote Originally Posted by Athos187 View Post
    Thanks for the heads up on the secunda britannica, I was actually using the secunda shields from Judex Rex and I believe he had both of those patterns for them but I'll look at that. I pretty much go for single unit shield patterns for everyone else except the cavalry which I was told used varied shield patterns.

    I will be focusing on having all of the units being named, right now I'm actually working on including named cataphractarii and clibinarii units. Those palatini were just a renamed palatini guard unit from vanilla for the general but I will probably try and research a real unit I can use for the general foot guard unit.

    As for the equites vexillationes, any ideas for a named cavalry unit I can use as the scouts? Dont think everyone would want multiple scout units.

    Please do continue to critique the mod, otherwise I'll just get lazy and it wont be as good as it can be
    Hello !

    Concerning cataphractarii, we know only nine units still existing in 395 for the eastern part and maybe 420 for the western :
    Equites catafractarii Biturigenses, a comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum Praesentalis I (east)
    Equites catafractarii, a comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum Praesentalis II (east)
    Equites catafractarii Ambianenses, another comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum Praesentalis II (east)
    Comites catafractarii, a comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum per Orientem (east)
    Equites catafractarii Albigenses, a comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum per Thracias (east)
    Ala prima Iovia catafracta[riorum], a limitanei ala under the Dux Thebaidos (east)
    Cuneus equitum catafractariorum, a limitanei cuneus under the Dux Scythiae (east)
    Equites catafractarii iuniores, under the Comes Britanniarum (West)
    Equites catafractarii, a limitanei equites unit under the Dux Britanniarum (West, surely the same unit of the comes britanniarum : with the need of fresh troops, border units have been called to fulfill the ranks of the main armies in the west during the IV-V centuries).

    As you can notice they are rare, because they were very expensive, and they are all except one located in the eastern part, even if three units have clear gallic names : Biturigenses (modern Bourges), Ambianenses (modern Amiens) and Albigenses (modern Albi.)
    So i guess, considering your timeframe, that you can pick the units in bold for the western part and the others for the east. The units wich are limitanei normally are smaller and less equipped than the others.

    About clibanarii ( and to be honest nobody can really tell what difference there is between clibanarii and catphractarii, there is many different explanations from scholars. Apparently it is more a sassanid/sarmatian fashion of very heavy cav), 8 units form the same two timeframes, once again more in the east.
    Equites clibanarii
    , under the Comes Africae (west)
    Equites sagittarii clibanarii
    , a comitatenses vexillation listed in the Magister Equitum's cavalry roster (west)
    Equites primi clibanarii Parthi
    , a comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum Praesentalis I (east)
    Equites Persae clibanarii
    , a palatine vexillation under the Magister Militum Praesentalis II (east)
    Equites secundi clibanarii Parthi
    , a comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum Praesentalis II (east)
    Equites quarti clibanarii Parthi
    , a comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum per Orientem (east)
    Cuneus equitum secundorum clibanariorum Palmirenorum
    , a comitatenses vexillation under the Magister Militum per Orientem (east)
    Schola
    scutariorum clibanariorum, under the eastern Magister Officiorum (east)

    for guard units you can use those terms :
    Protectores
    Domestici
    Candidati (only for the emperor)

    And for random mounted scouts the generic equites exploratores should be fine

    cheers

    EDIT : i forgot about cavalry unit : exactly as the infantry ones, they have one shield pattern per unit, there is no shield diversity among regular units. Concerning foederatii, i guess it will remain a mistery
    Last edited by Majorien; December 22, 2017 at 10:26 AM. Reason: typos

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    From what I've read the cataphractarii are sarmatians using sarmatian tactics and armor who were settled in gallic provinces and derived their names from where they were living while the clibanarii were based on persian heavy cavalry and used their armor, only going to have one unit with bows for the equites sagittarii clinanarii tho.

    One of the main reasons I decided to give the cataphractarii and clibanarii different armor is due to the fact that there were several armor factories designated specifically to create armor for the clibanarii.

    I'll put a little preview showcasing the differences I've made between them but I will also take into account the information you offered above.

    Really appreciate the information by the way, thanks for the taking the time to research that for me

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Quote Originally Posted by Athos187 View Post
    From what I've read the cataphractarii are sarmatians using sarmatian tactics and armor who were settled in gallic provinces and derived their names from where they were living while the clibanarii were based on persian heavy cavalry and used their armor, only going to have one unit with bows for the equites sagittarii clinanarii tho.

    One of the main reasons I decided to give the cataphractarii and clibanarii different armor is due to the fact that there were several armor factories designated specifically to create armor for the clibanarii.
    This makes sense. Furthermore, i don't know if it helps but still, some quasi general consensus is that clibanarii were more heavily armored than cataphractarii i.e. cataphractarii being without horse armor and possibly having slightly less armored rider but thus being faster and more maneuverable.
    Last edited by avatarius; December 22, 2017 at 01:34 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Ya you'll see the difference when I post them both side by side, one is more persian influenced and the other is more sarmation.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Clibinarii vs Cataphractarii:


    Clibinarii based on Persian heavy cavalry, only available to the Eastern Roman Empire





    Cataphractarii based on Sarmatian heavy cavalry:




    You can also check out the Eastern Roman army units above...
    Last edited by Athos187; December 24, 2017 at 03:03 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Dark Ages: 356 AD

    Looking really good. I always thought that Persian heavy cavalry was more heavily armored than Sarmatian counterparts due to Persia being powerful and rich empire vs Sarmatians being tribe (with much less money i'd say). But i'm really not expert on this, perhaps someone else knows better.

    Eastern units are great. Btw, Comes is not really a unit name, perhaps you can spare that unit slot for something else. You deserve more rep points!

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