The chivalry attribute, a horrible doubt?

[selv]

Sorry I did a search but can't find a straight answer. I never paid much attention to the choice of a governor when several fm are in a settlement until now, and I just realized that unless of a hidden attribute, it is the chivalry attribute that decide.

I mean, If a 'dread' general is governor and a lesser dread or chivalric general move in, the highter value of chivalry become governor no matter of other qualities. I just tried several things, a general move in the settlement of a highter chivalry governor, and therefore the latter keep his governorship, ect.

If I remember, chivalry/dread used to be management in RTW and CA changed it to this double attribute right? Well that's all fun except that dread/-chivalry is counted by the engine as negative points of management and vice versa.

I would like someone to tell me I am wrong but I doubt it, and I have to rethink again the whole use of CA great idea of a double attribute (without cleaning it's previous effects) for DBM...
I don't hope we can force the engine to pick a other attribute to decide who is governor....? No chance I bet.

[paleologos]

A high number in either chivalry or dread improves public order.
The difference is that a high chivalry governor "makes people happy to have him" in their city/castle.
So it increases population growth.
You can easily confirm that by checking settlement mechanics.
The game is programmed to assume that both you and the AI want to upgrade the settlement, so a governor that boosts population growth is preferable.

I have no idea how this would work between governors with a small difference in chivalry when the guy with the lowest chivalry has many attributes/ancillaries that reduce squalor.

Now, dread in by no means useless in governing.
It just takes longer to become useful.
If a city has maximum population then what you want is simply to keep the order.
A high dread increases law, which in turn lowers the amount of money lost to corruption.

All in all I find this a useful mechanic but it does come with a twist.
The surest way (at least in SS) to increase the general's chivalry is to release prisoners after battle.
The BIG problem with that in my opinion is not that they return to their master but that they return to their master with all their gear, ready for action.
We know from documents of the Carolingian empire that equipping a numerically adequate force was difficult enough to have municipalities and local lordships pay they taxes in the form of shields and spears.
I only wish it was possible to keep the shields and spears of captured soldiers and simply return the living bodies to their masters.

[selv]

No doubt, no doubt that chivalry/dread is a useful mechanic, or could have been if I didn't stumble in the problem described above. I was wrong on the management, it's the influence for generals from RTW that dread/chivalry replace in M2... But it doesn't change the problem, regardless of the other bonus on governing.

If you have a super experienced governor with dread or a lowest chivalry than a young inexperienced general with a superior score in chivalry, the youngest will be seen as a 'better' governor and take the post of the experienced no matter what other traits or attributes they have. Extreme example:
a -10 chivalry, meaning a 10 dread governor with good admistrator and such is a 'lesser' governor than a young without any experience in governing, but that has 0 chivalry, or -1 or -8, or +3.
This is systematic, for all case. dread point are counted as negative influence against all logic. the highter chivalry become governor. And I believed all this time that it was 'piety'/management but no. I discovered it by 'chance' when testing some triggers for characters in settlements but not governor. And it force me to rethink the all approach of the 'chivalry' attribute. I even tested it in vanilla and tweaking some numbers in descr_campaign and even settlement_mechanic against all hope.

So, goodbye, chivalry/dread, democraty/aristocraty from DBM. Welcome back, Influence or whatever else I will name it from RTW. I have to rework every traits and triggers with 'chivalry', and make sure it never drop below zero or find the 'dread' side a new name and appropriate system... I am gonna have the greatest fun of my life...

Rafmc, if you stop by, sorry but I can't let this go and it will delay me a few days, so no update in two days, more likely the week-end, unless of a genious lighting, or a genie granting me a wish... But I would use the wish for something else so still count a few days more.

[paleologos]

Keep in mind that generals with a lot of dread are more useful in battles and in the control of maxed out cities in late game.

Chivalry-positive traits of the general increase the morale of your own troops so that they can take a lot more punishment before they rout.
It is only useful in defensive battle when you are being ambushed and don't have the time to deploy your forces properly to face the enemy.
In a normal case, where your troops are at least moderately seasoned (such as in mid game) and you have positioned them properly so that they do not present exposed flanks to the enemy, the morale boost from a chivalry-positive general will not make a difference because your troops won't be needing it.

A highly dreaded general on the other hand can make enemy troops rout much sooner therefore limiting the casualties your troops will take during the battle.
The problem is that generals that execute prisoners and massacre conquered civilians (two sure ways to get them a high dread rating) lower the reputation of your faction dramatically, thus making diplomacy even more difficult that it normally is. These are all considerations to be made when using generals. If you are playing a game with intend to conquer the world you will need to put some attention in the development of you key people.

[rafmc1989]

just saw, ok two little considerations:

1)chivalry/dread is useful, but it all depends by the values you choose for the settlements mechanics "modifiers" and "pips", so you are the one to decide they have great or minimal effect

2)in battle dread is better, on map chivalry is for the "green management" (let's call like that xD).. all in all, again, in battle it also a lot depends by the value of morale, heat, discipline and other parameters you choose for units... the generals are a piece of the pie

[Titus le Chmakus]

Did you do your tests with Piety ? Because it is the attribute that replaces managment in RTW. It is the one with double effect, not influence !

EDIT : I've done a quick test and it seems I was right, the guy with the higher Piety becomes governor of the city ! Chiv/Dread has nothing to see in the choice.

[rafmc1989]

yes, it's piety the regulator...

[selv]

Did you do your tests with Piety ? Because it is the attribute that replaces managment in RTW. It is the one with double effect, not influence !

EDIT : I've done a quick test and it seems I was right, the guy with the higher Piety becomes governor of the city ! Chiv/Dread has nothing to see in the choice.

Nope, or you are playing a mod that somehow managed to change which atrribute govern the choice of governor. And I would like to know the secret. On what did you test?
Or it's always possible that I explained badly. Negative 'chivalry'/dread is counted as negative governing points by the engine, and the hightest chivalry always win.
Try this, a ten dread and max piety is governor, move a 9 dread with less piety in the settlement and you will see he become governor, or stay the governor if you do the opposite, move the super piety and 10 dread in his settlement. Try again with a 3 chivalry vs 4 chivalry and any score you want, you will see what I mean.

I tested on two DBM versions, including the new official build, and vanilla M2. So unless my gold version has a alien inside, it must work that way for everyone, unless it's not hardcoded but I doubt it. I wish it was changeable? (not a genie wish that one eh, just a thought)

Keep in mind that generals with a lot of dread are more useful in battles and in the control of maxed out cities in late game.

Chivalry-positive traits of the general increase the morale of your own troops so that they can take a lot more punishment before they rout.
It is only useful in defensive battle when you are being ambushed and don't have the time to deploy your forces properly to face the enemy.
In a normal case, where your troops are at least moderately seasoned (such as in mid game) and you have positioned them properly so that they do not present exposed flanks to the enemy, the morale boost from a chivalry-positive general will not make a difference because your troops won't be needing it.

A highly dreaded general on the other hand can make enemy troops rout much sooner therefore limiting the casualties your troops will take during the battle.
The problem is that generals that execute prisoners and massacre conquered civilians (two sure ways to get them a high dread rating) lower the reputation of your faction dramatically, thus making diplomacy even more difficult that it normally is. These are all considerations to be made when using generals. If you are playing a game with intend to conquer the world you will need to put some attention in the development of you key people.

None of this is hardcoded, nor is the dread itself responsible for bad reputation, it's the action that cause dread that lower reputation, among other things. Look in descr_faction_standing.

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0100b_prisoners_executed_decrease_global
    WhenToTest FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor


    Condition RansomType execute


    FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 30
    FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 120
    FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise -1.0 360

You will find plenty of triggers, you can even make new ones and rethink the entire ways of CA, but this file is sadly ignored, like almost everything related to the ai. I know there are plenty of hardcode in the engine but there are also plenty of moddable in the files or this game woudn't have lasted the way it keep lasting, don't you think?

To get back on my problem, I started to change the 'chivalry/dread' into a governor/general system, so it will be actually consistent and logic that a highter score win the post of governor. I am changing the triggers and effect of + chivalry to events and traits actually related to governing, while replacing the old ones, and - chivalry to military events and traits. It won't mean that a hight chivalry make a absolute looser on battle but he will be less efficient, and vice versa, so I can keep the related bonus of 'dread' and chivalry, it save me a little work.

Don't tell me that you guys find logic that the current system, whether it's dread/chivalry or aristocraty/democraty, same principle in DBM, decide who is the 'better' governor?
Granted, I never paid attention myself until I needed it for some triggers but it now seem like a other of CA land mines.

Regarding the characters preferences of people/aristocraty or the like, I am converting the old traits in a other system. The all business pains my backside but I already sailed away so...

[rafmc1989]

when the ship sails, it has to navigate then...

btw, apart jokes, ok, but do not force when impossible, diversify is ok too

[paleologos]

@ selv:
I know.
I believe I sufficiently made the point that a Dread 8 general is better than a Dread 3 general.
I was referring to the way you would need to use a general in order to have him develop the higher dread rating.
Using a general this way would damage faction reputation.

[selv]

I hate to contradict you, Paleologos... But this is only the way that is set in the default system, in EDCT. I renamed the dread/chivalry to civil/military management and I am moving all effects to traits and triggers that have nothing to do with the old ones, so executing prisonners, for example, will still affect a faction reputation, unless I change the descr_faction_standing but no reason in that case, but not the dread. Instead, commanding armies, command level, and other military thing will raise 'dread', troop moral and such, while governing will decrease it/raise 'chivalry' and other appropriate effects.

I prefer it to the old system anyway, it was too black and white, 'heroes/vilains' to my taste, I would have ended up doing something about it some day.

Almost forget, Rafmc and Titus, yes piety can influence some governing effects, but not the choice of governor, unless two candidates are equals in 'chivalry', maybe.

[Titus le Chmakus]

Well I've just done the test a second ago. I had a general with 8 Piety 10 Chivalry and another with 10 Piety, 8 Chivalry. The one being governor is the one with 10 Piety ...

[selv]

So did I, several times... Now I am lost, on what mod did you test? Somehow there must be a way to change which attribute has priority or my gold version sure has a big fat alien thing... I bought it in a store here on earth, you know...

edit, just to be sure we are on the same page and not mixing up what is a governor for the game, it's the one that has his portrait and name above the scroll when you double click on a city without anything else selected.

edit2, Rafmc, can you try on your official build and tell me if it work the same for you? I didn't change the new descr_campaign_db or settlements since merging over it... I don't understand, and even vanilla med2 work that way for me.

[selv]

Alright, halfway or so in my change of the 'chivalry' system, I tested again and surprise, now the chivalry attribute has no more influence on the choice of governor, piety does. I didn't touch the descr_campaign_db or settlement mechanic, only the EDCT and shared, tooltip txt so far. I reattributed some chivalry effects to other traits, replaced the old ones, made some new triggers and voila, the mystery is getting bigger.

I know I am not crazy because vanilla med2 still favorize the greater score of chivalry over piety to pick the governor. All I can think is that some other attributes not displayed at the top must have their role or the like...

Oh well, I still prefer my new system for using 'chivalry' and the boat has long left the port, I will have to explain a little detail for the player to know how to trigger a few things that's all. Thanks for trying to help.

[rafmc1989]

Haha, nice discussions here...

btw, as mentioned, piety is the regulator take a look at the files...

[selv]

Rafmc, but I did look at the files, and nothing say that piety is the regulator. And it's not, not by itself anyway. Really, in the DBM build you have, just try, put the nearest democratic/chivalry character in rome with the leader that is aristocratic/dread, and you will see that he become governor despite the leader having more culture/piety.
Try various combinations and you will see that the 'democrates', or less dreadful aristocrats win every time.

But it is not that simple, nor set in stone if some changes which the nature aren't clear yet are made to the system. Please, bear with me.

Anyone that want, Let's take vanilla as a demonstration. In the attachment, you will find a descr_strat if this thing bother you too. It's vanilla, slighly modified to include a dietrich test character near bologne and the emperor. Vanilla for me is bare_geomod of course.
test dietrich has 10 piety and two chivalry, the emperor has 7 chivalry and 3 piety. Put the new dietrich in bologne and you will see that the emperor stay governor.
Now, in the descr_strat, find dietrich entry below the emperor and raise his battle chivalry by one level. He now has 3 chivalry, 10 piety, and retry in game.
Yes, this time, with 4 level of chivalry below he still become governor over the emperor. So here piety does appear to play a regulator role, but no, the class doesn't end here, kids.

We have established that with only two chivalry, dietrich can not become governor over the 7 chivalry emperor. Let's now turn dietrich battle chivalry into battle dread, let's retry him and see that he still don't become governor. Let's add him the max level of battle dread, strategy dread and captor dread to see the exact same results. Below 3 chivalry, diedritch can not supplant the 7 chivalry emperor regardless of his 10 piety.

This is vanilla and the class is not over so stay where you are. In my new system for DBM, I am completely revamping the place of some traits effects, for example, generals can now gain some 'dread' with military actions, not the morale side but their competences in general, and sometimes with some harsh traits giving them also some bonus in law but less popularity and other effects that fit the style. And guess what? Now I am seeing some 'dread' generals getting chosen over 'chivalric' ones, something that was never happening before. Sometimes the piety seem to play a role, but sometimes not at all. This is now and my work is not over, I have yet to properly set the 'chivalry' side to my new system, so I will come back to tell you if things became clearer, unless it doesn't interest you at all.

My immediate point is that piety is possibly a regulator, but one among others and not the most important, as it seem. I am almost convinced that the game after all also look at the other attributes related to governing, law, farming, unrest and so on... If I am right, then my system will fall right back on it's feet once I am done with the + chivalry side.

And I repeat, I didn't touch the descr_campaign_db or settlements mechanic for these tests, nor does the piety mode from vanilla or the alternative piety from brittania seem to change something to the choice of governor.

[Withwnar]

Interesting topic. Never certain myself of how it worked though I thought it was piety. A quick web search yielded four results, all different:

1) Command then chivalry/dread (presumably the latter only to break a tie in command)
2) Chivalry/dread
3) Authority
4) Piety

Authority caught my attention as it's not seen so would explain the mysteriousness of the choice. But your experiments, Selv, of changing traits seems to refute this, as those were not affecting Authority.

Maybe it's a combination of things, e.g. a sum of them.

[Titus le Chmakus]

Selv, are you running the 1.05 version of Kingdom ? If you have the Gold only, then you are 1.04 ... That could explain it ?

Anyway, I prefer Piety to regulate, as I've removed the religions from my mod and changed Piety to Managment as in RTW. Btw, you can notice that Piety really is Managment. Governors get more income if they have a higher Piety !

[selv]

Yep, Titus, I am updated to 1.5, I am from a time where auto updating was not existing, so I always think of patching. And I really doubt that there was a difference with 1.4 regarding the matter at hand but I won't downgrade to check. I know the effect of piety on income but it doesn't explain the rest. It seem that nobody want to try my descr_strat test in baregeomod, fair enough but I am telling you, I can't be the only one, it probably isn't important enough in your modding that's all.

I am starting to feel like David Vincent but at least Withwnar believe me, I tell you, I saw them and piety isn't the only regulator of governorship choice. However it seem that other governing attributes like law and such are no regulators at all after further testing.

It is still hard to see clearly what is the formula or the pattern but let's try what seem a 'simple' example. Remember that I completely redistributed the gains of chivalry and dread for DBM. We have three levels of three differents traits, and these are the effects:

		Effect Unrest  -2
		Effect Trading  10
		Effect Law  2
		Effect TaxCollection  10


		Effect Unrest  2
		Effect Trading  -10
		Effect Law  -2
		Effect TaxCollection  -10


		Effect Unrest  -2
		Effect Trading  10
		Effect Law  2
		Effect TaxCollection  10
		Effect LocalPopularity 1

We then have four characters, two 4 chivalry and five piety, versus two 4 dread and 7 piety, and one of the last two is a leader with 10 authority.
In my current system with all the dread reassigned mostly to military exploits and competences, the two dread win the governorship against the two chivalry.
Now we assign the two positive trait levels of governorship to the chivalry types... And nothing change, the two dread are still seen as 'better' governors.
Next, we are adding some + chivalry effects to the positive traits... And all of a sudden, the two chivalry become 'better' governors than the two dread who still have a better piety, and a better authority in the leader's case.
We then add some negative chivalry effect to the negative trait and assign it to the two dread. And the chivalry are still better governor. All this without fluctuations of piety and authority.

Not as simple as it look is it? The only thing that is getting clearer is the fact that chivalry is as much of a regulator than piety, and possibly a more important one, but it depend, MAYBE, on a balance and distribution of the both sides of chivalry effect which remain hard to establish.

I didn't have that much time today, so more later. But I saw them, they are here. And on top of all that, who know what might happen if I started to redistribute the piety effects?

[Titus le Chmakus]

Well I really don't know what to say ... I belive you when you say this, otherwise you wouldn't have posted !

In my mod, I cannot test such a thing as I have assigned the Dread to Evil factions and Chivalry to Good factions. Each character starts with at least 5 points in his faction's alignment ... And they get unrest if they go too much towards the other side !