A clear case of murder by a police officer

[ggsimmonds]

Yep, I read it. The story has had some corrections, so may be that's it.

Just that your post reads like you think the article is defending the shooting, when in reality what you said echoed the article.

[Basil II the B.S]

Can we add a poll: would you like to face officer Phillip Brainsford armed with his AR-15 rifle while slightly intoxicated?

[B. W.]

Firstly, I added a short paragraph to the OP asking readers to share their experiences with police officers. Maybe that will give everyone an idea of what to expect when they encounter a situation with authorities when they're in different countries.

I know that some of you here love having many guns around but reading all the personal stories you guys post here from the US the level of tense going on just seems ridiculous from my point of view!

I was only stopped by police once in my life, similarly to your stories I was with a group of friends and we were on our way to a seminar then we got stopped by police on the road they blocked, they had us come out of the car and just told us to empty our pockets, I guess they were looking for drugs or whatever. It was probably not exactly legal to have us do that, but still, I was 20 years old when it happened, I just put my hands naturally in my pockets and took some stuff out and showed them.

I didn't have to beg them not to get shot for putting my hands in my pockets to follow their instructions

Then they looked around in the car for a bit and let us go.

I imagine if I did anything of the sort in the US I'd probably get shot on the spot. Well that's what having more firearms than people gets you I guess!

I don't mean to hijack the thread and turn it into a gun control thread, but I just wanted to point out how more relaxed our policemen are when they do their job, which is safer for everyone involved.

I also don't mean in anyway that we don't have idiots or power hungry policemen here, we do and plenty, but at least they aren't scared of getting shot, unless they are responding to an actual gunfire related call.

Just that your post reads like you think the article is defending the shooting, when in reality what you said echoed the article.

An interesting assessment. Although I was in a very specialized unit we still occasionally pulled regular patrol duty. On rare occasions we would be assigned to patrol the Bahnhoff and we would have to check in with the GPs at their station before we went on duty. Once, when I was checking in, I saw a man sitting in a chair in the back of the room with a German doctor examining him (taking his pulse) and the doctor looked up and said, "Kaput."

The GP's had beaten him to death. They had these rubber clubs that had balls of shot on the end that would wrap around a persons head and knock him out. A strong person could use something like that a couple of strokes and that would be it.

On the other hand, we had small clubs. I could bump a person into submission pretty quickly using one of those clubs without ever hitting them in the head or causing major injury. It may have looked pretty rough, but it was far better than shooting them. Company commanders didn't mind getting their men back a little roughed up, but they tended to frown on having them shot dead.

My disagreement was with the fact that he found the shooting justified because the officer was in fear for his life. Even back in the day as an MP, we were given training on how to conduct ourselves in court and what words and phrases to use and how to express ourselves. The average citizen has had none of this and probably isn't even aware that police officers are trained on how to conduct themselves in a courtroom. I disagreed with his conclusion because I know from personal experience that it was unjustified. With his shooting skill and reaction speed he could have waited a split second to see if there was anything in the guys hand.

Even at my age, I could have done that. He just used it as an excuse to shoot somebody.

Can we add a poll: would you like to face officer Phillip Brainsford armed with his AR-15 rifle while slightly intoxicated?

I think the answer to that question would be a resounding NO!

[Elfdude]

BW, you should note that in the US police are not trained to use de-escalation tactics and if they are it's a rare 1 off training they might spend a couple of hours on. The US err's on the side of liability protection and protection of the officer from bodily harm. This means police are never taught to wound or disable, they are taught to not rely upon tazers or non-violent methods and are trained to escalate to the maximum use of force asap to gain compliance. The US would need to massively overhaul our police system to create a system where folks don't do that. Hell we only banned arbitrary pistol whipping (using your 3-4 pound metal weapon as a club) on folks in 1990's because of a string of deaths caused by skull compression fractures. That resulted in massive protests by the police.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Suddenly we are blessed with the presence of half a dozen experts in policing techniques, which are of course uniform throughout the entire country despite the possible presence of up to seven different policing authorities within the same jurisdiction. We could solve all the world's problems in the mudpit.

[Elfdude]

An appeal to expertise does not an argument make. If you want to make a point base it on something.

https://policemanuals.neocities.org/

You're correct, some cities an municipalities have more rigorous standards. State and Federal government requirements emphasize self-protection, eliminating the totality of the threat and use of deadly force with center body mass. Officers are not expected to retreat, and they are not expected to subject themselves to any level of risk of harm (they can get in trouble for doing so in most places). They do all use the Graham Standard for the authorization of force however which is what allowed the inciting incident of this thread to occur.

This is almost opposite the policy that the military uses when facing potential non-combatants, civilians, or even aggressive individuals. BTW

[ByzantinePowerGame]

These things happen unfortunatelly. I am more annoyed from the fact that the police officer was found not guilty

Juries in the USA will almost always [99% of the time] acquit a police officer for conduct that would land anybody else in prison.

It starts when prosecutors stack the deck in favor of the cops by how they present evidence to the grand jury. Grand juries can be swayed to do just about anything. Few cases even get beyond a grand jury. They seldom result in an indictment.

[Heathen Hammer]

Prosecuting cops will make it less likely for them to do what establishment would want them to do in case of mass civil unrest.

[athanaric]

Prosecuting cops will make it less likely for them to do what establishment would want them to do in case of mass civil unrest.

Yeah... but letting them off scot free essentially creates lawlessness and rewards shady characters of the force. That's why it's important to have an impartial justice system and not one that is "out to get" members of any particular group, be it cops or anybody else

[Heathen Hammer]

Yeah... but letting them off scot free essentially creates lawlessness and rewards shady characters of the force. That's why it's important to have an impartial justice system and not one that is "out to get" members of any particular group, be it cops or anybody else

And establishment needs those shady characters to mow down protesters in case of mass unrest and riots. The last thing establishment needs is "conscious" cops refusing to open fire on rioting plebs.

[swabian]

But you know... before actually shooting, you might want to see the guy's weapon. Also there's ''shoot to disarm'' and ''shoot to kill''. The cop shot to kill. He didn't even think twice.

In a largely unarmed society, it would be preferable if police were using tasers... you know, "stun guns" and the like. But in the USA this all makes sense. Assume this (truly) pitiful wretch wasn't so harmless and pulled a knife on an officer, or a small gun.
In such a situation it makes only sense to shoot with leathal weapons in order to neutralize the target by killing it.

The leading officer would be (socially) massacred by his peers and immediately be relieved of duty, if he managed to get one of his co-workers killed in the process. There is a lot more pressure on police in the US than there is in Europe. So i am willing to give the benefit of the doubt, although i think the officer in command is an utter douche unworthy of public responsibility.

[B. W.]

And yet another completely innocent man is gunned down by an overreacting police force. It makes one wonder what they're teaching in police academies these days. They should make them spend 80 hours watching the Andy Griffin Show to learn about common sense reaction before they let them out on the streets.

https://michaelsavage.com/2017/12/30...lice-shooting/

Seriously, after receiving a call like this, did they actually expect a suspect to calmly open the door to his home? Note to all: if the "police" come knocking on your door, call the dispatcher before you open it so they know who you are and you know why they're at your door in the first place.

I remember some years back there was a disturbance at my neighbors house and the police knocked on my door to see if I knew anything about it. It was dark and my dog was at the door with me barking. Upon seeing my dog the cop started reaching for his gun. I promptly told him "Do not pull your gun on my dog!"

Fortunately he didn't. I wonder what he was expecting? You knock on someone's door in the middle of the night and the dog, if he's doing his job, will bark. The fact that my neighbors were giving the police (and everybody else) a problem shouldn't be a problem for me.

I used to have full confidence in the police, but I'm losing that confidence. What are they teaching at the police academies these days?

[mongrel]

You and you dog were fortunate, your actions certainly saved your pet's life. I do find it astonishing that all other professions , notoriously postmen , but also delivery guys, nurses, utility workers can encounter dogs without slaughtering pets. it is reckoned that police kill 10, 000 dogs a year .In the process of killing dogs some have also killed or injured owners.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...licing/533319/

[B. W.]

You and you dog were fortunate, your actions certainly saved your pet's life. I do find it astonishing that all other professions , notoriously postmen , but also delivery guys, nurses, utility workers can encounter dogs without slaughtering pets. it is reckoned that police kill 10, 000 dogs a year .In the process of killing dogs some have also killed or injured owners.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...licing/533319/

You and you dog were fortunate, your actions certainly saved your pet's life. I do find it astonishing that all other professions , notoriously postmen , but also delivery guys, nurses, utility workers can encounter dogs without slaughtering pets. it is reckoned that police kill 10, 000 dogs a year .In the process of killing dogs some have also killed or injured owners.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...licing/533319/

Thanks for posting that. Before I comment on it, I want to say that I just heard that the jury in the case I described in the OP was not allowed to see the video of the police shooting. Apparently it wasn't released until after the trial.

Now as to police shooting dogs, I would say that it is a bigger problem than I could have imagined. Apparently, police are told if confronted by a dog to shoot it.

In the video, there is no way the officer was threatened by those dogs and, in fact, the officer lied on his report. He should be fired.

The law should also be strengthened to regard someone's yard as property that can only be entered without a warrant, unless there is overbearing probable cause.

In this case, the alarm company should be liable for a civil suit because they didn't fulfill their obligations and property damage was done.

You are also right about postmen, meter readers, etc. confront dogs all the time and they aren't armed with guns and by and large deal with them without harm on either side.

When I was a kid we didn't have air conditioning (it was another age and time) and we would leave the front door open with only the screen door shut to let air in. We had an attic fan and this helped to keep the house cool. We also had an old dog whose vision was going.

One day the postman come up to the mail box, which was by the door, and the old dog, which was sleeping at the time, woke up startled and literally jumped up and ran through the screen door, jumping up on the postman.

I was sitting in the room and it startled me as well. I jumped up and ran outside and there was the postman laying on his back with my dog licking him on the face. There was mail all over the yard from the postman's bag.

The postman wasn't even mad. He knew the dog and as he gathered up the mail he commented about the fact that it was ashamed the dog was going blind. Living in a small community does have advantages.

One can only imagine if that happened today.

[Mithradates]

the jury in the case I described in the OP was not allowed to see the video of the police shooting. Apparently it wasn't released until after the trial.

???
WTF Really?

[B. W.]

???
WTF Really?

I'm not sure if it's true, but that's what I'm hearing. If true, it explains the jury's verdict and, as the saying goes, "somebody's got some splanin' to do".

[Phier]

I used to have full confidence in the police, but I'm losing that confidence. What are they teaching at the police academies these days?

I have a good friend who is a long time soon to be retired cop. He has complained for a while that the new recruits are crap. Most wash out the first couple of weeks. Mentally and physically unsuited for the job. The negative feelings towards police, which was really pressed under Obama, made a lot of good people look elsewhere for a career.

[Elfdude]

How were negative feelings about cops pressed under Obama?

[Phier]

How were negative feelings about cops pressed under Obama?

Were you in country the last 9 years?

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...y-group-225291

[Cope]

How were negative feelings about cops pressed under Obama?

In 2015, Gallup presented data suggesting that confidence in the police was at its lowest point for over 20 years. The data doesn't link declining confidence in the police with President Obama though.