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Thread: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

  1. #1
    Axis Sunsoar's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    As I was preparing to begin a new AAR recently, my first in a while, I spent some time thinking about the merits of each game as far as AAR writing, as well as in general. I'd like to share some of those thoughts now, and get some other ideas and feedback as well.

    Firstly, as a disclaimer, I only own 4 TW games: Medieval II, Rome II, and Warhammer I & II. Medieval II was my first total war game ever, and I didn't get it right after release either, so basically the result was that by the time I had finally played it enough to consider looking for another total war game, the most recent title was Napoleon, and I am not particularly interested in that time period as far as gaming goes (though it is historically fascinating). I purchased Rome II when it came out, was unimpressed and so I didn't buy Attila (or play R2 for a while, for that matter) though after the patches I recently picked it up again and got some good play time out of it. Then, like any good fantasy nerd, I purchased both Warhammer titles, which I have thoroughly enjoyed playing. I consider myself a mediocre player overall, though I am decent when it comes to Med2, but I don't think skill discrepancy really played a role in this experience.

    My first thought, since I have recently been playing Warhammer, was to write a Warhammer AAR. However, I discovered that my desire to actually write about the game I was enjoying was rather minimal. I came to the conclusion that between Warhammer and Medieval II, CA turned the game itself into a more narrative experience. This means that it has more replayability between the different factions being completely different experiences, and the different quest battles etc being woven together to form a story-based game (particularly with the introduction of the WH2 Vortex campaign.) This can make for a massively enjoyable actual gameplay experience for someone who is only approaching the game to play and try to beat it. However, because the game has a story by itself, writing about it seems to have less value to me, and trying to go back and replay a faction seems less enticing as well, since there's such a streamlined story already being told.

    Then I considered writing a Rome II AAR, because why not? Like I said, I have been enjoying the game more recently, and an AAR seemed like it would possibly be a good way to connect with it. The actual game systems are in many ways improved from Medieval II, presenting more of a challenge and allowing for different regions to develop differently. Choices must be made when it comes to what buildings will be constructed, and this adds replay value for the same faction, and even more between different factions. However, I couldn't really generate any connection to the characters, especially since they could just be plucked out of thin air to command my armies, and the trait system feels a little tired and repetitive before long. I will say that from my limited experience the new politics patch has fixed many of these issues. In fact, in many ways I still think Rome II can make for a good AAR, in fact, there are several fantastic Rome II AARs on the forum right now. For my personal preference however, the game systems get in the way of storytelling.

    So finally, I was back to old, reliable (modded) Medieval II. Unlike WH, and to a lesser extent even Rome II, it does not have much replay value on the surface, even between different factions. Someone playing the game purely to play the game is going to wind up doing the same thing over and over, the only thing that might change is start position and unit colors/models, but at the end of the day, all the cities are going to be totally upgraded, and all the armies are going to be elite, heavy-cav centric with some infantry to hold a line and archers and artillery to tear to poor, unsuspecting ai apart. However, this belies the true value of going back to the game over and over, because someone who isn't interested in the game only to beat it, but to tell a story will find more ways in Medieval II to make the story their own. Varied general traits, different self-imposed playstyles and limitations seem more possible. The more simplistic settlement system means that a migration-style campaign won't be punished or rendered impossible. Because not every army needs a general, and generals don't spike the upkeep costs so severely, characters can be more than just commanders, they can stay back to govern settlements, or they can lead a specialized cavalry strike force for home defense without it being a massive resource drain.

    Of course, the thing everyone will point to is the family tree which ultimately makes Medieval II so rewarding for storytelling purposes, and this is true, but I think there's a lot more to it than that. In some ways, as gameplay is improved and expanded on, it becomes harder to find a story to tell between the threads of what is happening (or at least for me, since even for Medieval II I tend to ignore actual game mechanics and reasons to focus on my own, and the more of these mechanics there are, the more I have to ignore). To an even greater extent, as the game itself becomes a story, as we saw with Warhammer, it becomes even more difficult to find your own story to tell about the game. These are just the very rough sketch of the thoughts I initially had when considering my options. I'd love to hear what other people think.
    Last edited by Axis Sunsoar; December 03, 2017 at 11:30 PM. Reason: I missed a space in the thread title. It was bugging me.

  2. #2
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Every campaign I do in the total war series is a story. The stories can be difficult to articulate at times, and I wouldn't dare post my mind's work for most of them (so easy to write it, when it's not actually written down), but I've always found the total war series to be a very good outlet for building stories and especially building characters. The family tree is a very minor part of that, but it's just another thing in the mix of elements that made Medieval 2 and Rome optimal for me.

    I was able to attach to characters in the original Medieval, and that was one reason why I played the living hell out of that game. Eastern contexts are far harder for me to connect to, so the original shogun only appealed partially for the mechanics, but Medieval saw me actually attach to the series. In no small part was this due to the fact I could treat each element of a campaign as a story, and each piece on the map as a character. I don't flesh out every single character. I do end up fleshing out at least a couple of them. Rome's mechanics were even better suited for that, and I consider Medieval 2 the game to do it best of them all. The varied and sometimes long lists of traits helped create the baseline for my various characters. The traits helped build proper connections to the characters, which is one of the main reasons why I've stuck to Medieval 2 for so long.

    The future entries, with their simplification of character mechanics and more focus on the action and min/maxing characters, are far less relatable to me. Fewer traits, less connection to units and the like. The traits that do exist are designed to be min/maxed to an extent where I am simply disinterested. I therefore stick to the older games for actual characters and such.
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Hi!

    I'm not an expert on AARs: I never wrote one and read but a few (quite some time ago, in fact).

    From my experience, I'd agree with both of you, since I think I've only gotten into M2TW AARs. However, Shogun 2 is a very solid game that combines the family tree and flexibility of the olden days with some great new features and, of course, better visuals. Also, there are legendary Shogun 2 AARs available here that I've been wanting to read for a while. Gameplay wise, I join the crowd in claiming that it's the best in the series.

    If you have a chance, try S2 as an interesting middle ground. If you like the setting, I think it has the possibility to be quite fertile.

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    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Van Tromp View Post
    If you like the setting, I think it has the possibility to be quite fertile.
    That's the problem. Shogun's context is neither relatable nor interesting to me, and in good part that kills my inspiration to play it.
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    That's the problem. Shogun's context is neither relatable nor interesting to me, and in good part that kills my inspiration to play it.
    Yes, you said so in your post. But since Axis didn't mention his take on it, in case he likes the period himself, I think it's worth his attention.

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    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Van Tromp View Post
    Yes, you said so in your post. But since Axis didn't mention his take on it, in case he likes the period himself, I think it's worth his attention.
    Ah. Aimed at him, it's worth a shot.
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



  7. #7
    McScottish's Avatar The Scribbling Scotsman
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    I can honestly say that I find the older games so much easier to write AARs around, and this is for a variety of reasons, with perhaps the largest being that - in my opinion at least - the games from Rome I to Medieval II just had more what you might call 'role-playing elements'. These include the obvious family tree, the simple trait and ancillary system, diplomacy being done through diplomats (as well as princesses in Medieval II), and - especially important during the Classical periods - being able to move a singular unit from one army to the other without having to move the whole 'effin army! The latter most being something that really annoys me to this day.

    I believe that if you like a specific time period then you can pretty much write an AAR on/about anything - and I state that as someone who has written AARs about periods as early as the Trojan War, to as late as WWI - but, depending on the base game and on mods if you like them, this can be made easier/harder as well as more exciting or not.

    Let me use one of my most recent AARs as an example, that being an Empire: TW AAR focused on a Highland Regiment of the British army; I was able to shift the regiment from general to general, able to keep track of regimental casualties, to see what officer was commanding them, to pretty much write a story about them as a microcosm in the wider army. SeniorBatavianHorse, one of our greatest AARtists, made an AAR that focused on the Legio quinta Macedonica (Fifth Makedonian Legion), documenting their trials and tribulations in the eastern deserts of Persia.

    I personally do not feel that such a thing is even possible now, I feel that 'regional capitals' and the inability to shift forces about as you'd like, as well as the veering toward more 'arcade style' game play has really put a dint in my inspiration and even want to write another AAR set in any of the later games. That's not to say I dislike them, I've bought and played every TW game from Shogun I for Joves sake, but in general I'd have to agree with CommodusIV on this - while I could easily write a tale based around an Undead Count or a Roman legion as a whole, I would much rather go back to Europa Barbarorum I or II (one on Rome I and the other using Medieval II) and see what I can get from them.

    Let me just say that the only two AARs I have ever written to completion have been while using Roma Surrectum II during my university days, so there has to be something in it for me personally I'd think.

    P.S.

    I am thinking of using modded Rome II/Atilla or Warhammer for my newest AAR...so we shall see.

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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    All this talk about Shogun 2. I do not have the game and that is mainly because doing so online is a pain (so I think) if there is no home based internet connection. I am interested though. Time to check out the written AAR collection and start some light reading.

    McScottish -- I think your AAR with the battalion was a good idea and worth even another go in a different game as an AAR.

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    McScottish's Avatar The Scribbling Scotsman
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    McScottish -- I think your AAR with the battalion was a good idea and worth even another go in a different game as an AAR.

    Well I've got ideas, but what would you suggest?

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    Axis Sunsoar's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV
    Every campaign I do in the total war series is a story. The stories can be difficult to articulate at times, and I wouldn't dare post my mind's work for most of them (so easy to write it, when it's not actually written down), but I've always found the total war series to be a very good outlet for building stories and especially building characters.
    Well said

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV
    The future entries, with their simplification of character mechanics and more focus on the action and min/maxing characters, are far less relatable to me. Fewer traits, less connection to units and the like. The traits that do exist are designed to be min/maxed to an extent where I am simply disinterested.
    This is an excellent way to put what I was trying to get at - gameplay has been simplified and streamlined, at the cost of a lot of stories that could be told. Back in Med2 you can wind up with some legitimately sucky generals, and those make for some legitimately fun stories, whether you're writing them out as an AAR, or just having some fun trying to narrate what's happening for yourself.

    Shogun 2 is a very solid game that combines the family tree and flexibility of the olden days with some great new features and, of course, better visuals. Also, there are legendary Shogun 2 AARs available here that I've been wanting to read for a while. Gameplay wise, I join the crowd in claiming that it's the best in the series.
    This sentiment is echoed a lot, and it seems like eventually I'll have to give in and play Shogun II. Perhaps it will be a good one to have on my less capable computer that can't run all the newer titles. I've certainly read some of those Shogun II AARs you mention (Way of the Bow, In the Light of Dusk, Takeda, and Yokai all come to mind), and there are some truly spectacular ones, so there must be something worth storytelling about in there. Too many more comments like this and I'll actually have to give it a try I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by McScottish
    I personally do not feel that such a thing is even possible now, I feel that 'regional capitals' and the inability to shift forces about as you'd like, as well as the veering toward more 'arcade style' game play has really put a dint in my inspiration and even want to write another AAR set in any of the later games. That's not to say I dislike them, I've bought and played every TW game from Shogun I for Joves sake,
    Another excellent phrasing of the core of what I was trying to reachwhen I started my rambling post. Certain game mechanics, whether or not they make the game enjoyable, seem to make it a lot more difficult to write about or, as you say, even want to write about. I'll always remember the first time I was playing a Med2 campaign and thought "wow, I really want to share this story" (It didn't even make it past a prologue, like so many of my projects but hey, the bug had been caught by then), and that just doesn't happen with many of the later titles, as much as I still have a good time.

    Quote Originally Posted by McScottish
    I am thinking of using modded Rome II/Atilla or Warhammer for my newest AAR...so we shall see.
    New McScottish AAR incoming: you heard it here first folks!



    I will add that at the end of the day its obviously up to the writer to create the story, and I think a very compelling story can be dug out of any TW game. I found WH to be a particularly interesting case because the way the game is structured it seems like so much story is already written there's not even much left to dig. Just different ways to explain what's there for everyone. At some point in the near future I might even try my hand at a Rome II AAR, but I doubt I'll ever touch Warhammer. The way the world is already so developed and set up narratively makes it pretty fun to play through, but not particularly inspiring writing material, though I certainly think with a little more effort there's probably something worth writing, just maybe not about any of the Legendary Lords. Perhaps a hero or something recruited near the beginning of the campaign?

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    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    As you can probably guess if you have read Andraste's Children, I'm enjoying both playing and writing an AAR for a newer game, Rome II. Like Axis Sunsoar, I like the way that Rome II requires players to think strategically by restricting our building options and numbers of armies. We can't build everything everywhere, we can't recruit all units everywhere and we usually can't guard every border. This means that diplomacy and spying matter more. It also helps to pay attention to natural choke points on the campaign map (such as the bridge east of Burdigala in Gaul, between the regions of Burdigala and Nemossos). Of course, I know that other players see it differently and that some aspects of the game's design (such as not having a family tree and requiring a general in each army) really annoy some players, as McScottish mentioned.

    McScottish wrote that you like being able to shift a unit from general to general. Of course, you're right that this can only be done by moving one army to meet another in Rome II. For what it's worth, I often use a 'supply general' whose job is to shuttle units between armies. When I can recruit useful mercenaries on one side of my empire, my supply general delivers them to armies on the opposite side. When I can recruit cavalry, artillery or high-tier units in one area but not others, my supply general takes them where they need to go. For me, the good consequences of this feature (more strategic game-play, avoiding the 'Ottoman turn bug' which blighted some campaigns in Empire Total War or repetitive battles against tiny armies) outweigh the bad - of course, other players see it differently.

    For anyone considering a Rome II AAR, I recommend using a More Aggressive AI mod (I use this one) and Mitch's Guaranteed Major Faction Empires. With these two mods, I see AI factions attacking each other more as well as the player (the AI mod makes AI factions which don't like the player more likely to declare war and more likely to send armies to attack when they are at war with you).

    Admiral Van Tromp mentioned the enjoyable game-play in Shogun II; I agree. When playing Shogun II, I like the way that AI factions expand quickly (usually faster than I can) and that different factions succeed at creating empires in different campaigns. When playing Rome II with Mitch's Guaranteed Major Faction Empires mod, I see AI major factions expanding in a similar way to Shogun II, so that the player's expanding empire will be challenged by rival empires. I particularly like the feature in Mitch's mod that we can customise its effects, for example by selecting which factions are treated as major. (Major factions get a bonus in auto-resolved battles which the player cannot see.) If, for example, you want a specific faction(s) to create a large empire to challenge the player, you can select only one or a few factions as 'major'.

    As I see it, Mitch's mod offers exciting opportunities for Rome II campaigns and AARs. If you want to set up a historical scenario, such as a world in which Carthage defeated Rome, or in which Eastern horse archer armies came west to threaten Rome long before Attila was born, or in which one of the Greek successor states created an empire to equal or exceed that of Rome, then you can using this mod (without needing to play Carthage, or the Eastern horse archer faction or the Greek successor state.)
    Last edited by Alwyn; December 09, 2017 at 06:15 AM.

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    McScottish's Avatar The Scribbling Scotsman
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Good idea, Alwyn...may have to try that! I usually see it as a waste of a general, but it could well work.

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    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    It works for me! Of course, there are other options. It depends how strictly you want your AAR to represent characters in the game. Some AAR writers might decide that, for a character to be mentioned in a battle, a specific unit containing that character has to be present in that army - and the character must always be represented by the same unit. That's one option and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Alternatively, your characters could move between units (and could join a unit in a different army), even if the character's original unit remains with the same army. In Andraste's Children, Mabon was initially represented in-game as the commander of a mercenary Briton Scout Riders unit, then a unit of Veteran Riders and now a Heroic Riders general, as his career progressed. Similarly, Rhiannon began as the commander of a unit of Heroic Noble infantry; she is now represented in-game as the veteran training the army led by Mabon.

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    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Many, many years ago, when Empire Total War came out, I remember writing a now long forgotten blog post on some website or other, where I bemoaned the trajectory of the Total War series. Having played since the original Shogun Total War, I got to experience the changes as they came and I honestly didn't really like it. The most beautiful aspect of the original Shogun (which I still hold in high regard, rose tinted glasses donned perhaps) was its simplicity. It was a very tight game, in the sense that there weren't many superfluous elements. Everything had a function and everything worked together; units, buildings, agents, religions and all that jazz we now accept as staple mechanics of the series. Campaigns were smooth and often quite rapid, and allowed me personally to become better invested in the 'story'.

    From here on out, I felt that things went a little downhill. Rome and Medieval II obviously remain classic games, but I noticed a trend whereby the original elements of the series, which worked so well together previously, became increasingly 'innovated' - to put it kindly. For example, by Medieval II, micromanaging agents had become a game in and of itself, where you're moving princesses around to try and get them married off correctly, or getting into coin sack-swinging contests with your merchants over ore mines and spice routes. And the campaign became slower and more stuttered, as you had to spend increasingly more time trying to sort out all the affairs away from the frontline. Empire and Napoleon Total War both took this even further, where you now have to manage your government ministers and so on - which is where I really fell out with newer titles. Although I haven't played much Rome 2, Attila or Warhammer, from what I've seen it it continues much in this fashion.

    *I don't mention Shogun 2 here, because I see it as something of an anomaly - which people have mentioned above. Whilst it did continue with many similar Empire and Napoleon mechanics, it also seemed like a lot of superfluous elements had been pruned - for example, folding economic buildings back into the city panel, so you're not going through all your little towns and upgrading buildings as in ETW and NTW.

    So, from my perspective, in terms of ARRs, the game mechanics of old and new titles lend them to two different types of stories. Shogun, Medieval, Rome and Medieval 2, all lend themselves to grander historical narratives, where smoother and faster gameplay allow you to progress more quickly through campaigns. Later games, Empire, Napoleon and so forth, seem to work a little better for more character driven stories, where you spend more time working with your characters and building their relationships, as opposed to blitzing through your enemies without a break.

    Another aspect to consider in the shorter timeframe of many later games, such as Napoleon and Fall of the Samurai, where it shifts to 12 turns per year - here, you really can't pen the grand historical epics of other (unmodded) titles, because you're unlikely to really go past one or two generations. So here you'll spend much more time with individual characters and their actions. We also can't forget how the weird, unsynced ageing of characters in the earlier games affected their own stories.

    This doesn't mean that old games in the series are only good for grand, impersonal narratives, or that newer games are only good for character driven stories - just that that's what I see them generally being better at. Take for example, Radzeer's first ARR, Chronicles of a Hungarian Freeman, which uses Medieval II to tell the story of one single man. This is a short ARR of only around 13 chapters and Radzeer's comments on how difficult it became to use the game in such a way are very interesting - and well worth a read. Even if you look at an ARR such as I am Skantarios, yes it concerns the life and times of one character, but stylistically as an ARR, it's much more focussed on telling a grand narrative of the campaign. Skantarios - rather than being a three dimensional character with real development or an intricate character arc - can actually be regarded more as a glorified narrator (someone should write a CQ article about that! Just who is Skantarios?). Meanwhile, Lugotorix's Attila ARR Vandalarius and Robin's Shogun 2 ARR Takeda (and well, pretty much every Shogun 2 ARR I can think of), whilst tracking a campaign narrative, are much more character driven.

    Now this might partly be because of the changing styles of the times and the different trends in ARRistry (I wrote a very long CQ article about that, which I still like to plug from time to time), as well as down to different authors, but in general, I think that's some interesting food for thought, on what older and newer titles might be better suited at in terms of the actual game mechanics.

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    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    When Ancient Empire's gets released, def an AAR on that!

    But guys, when writing a Warhammer 2 AAR, aren't you literally writing your own lore?

    Say I wanted to do Cahtay, Nippon or Ind even though they're not included, is that allowed? I heard Warhammer writing isn't that great.
    Last edited by The Wandering Storyteller; February 03, 2018 at 08:13 PM.





















































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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Anything is allowed! No rules that I know of. No rule book on an AAR. To a degree that is my problem. If you want to use pictures -- use them. If you want to do a play by play -- go for it. If you want to create a fantasy faction -- no problem.

    Now to click on you sig link and take a look.

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    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Anything is allowed! No rules that I know of. No rule book on an AAR. To a degree that is my problem. If you want to use pictures -- use them. If you want to do a play by play -- go for it. If you want to create a fantasy faction -- no problem.

    Now to click on you sig link and take a look.
    Thanks, although my sig is just a normal one, it's for AE.





















































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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    That' okay -- I spied on your post history and found the Attila Mod.

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    Caillagh de Bodemloze's Avatar to rede I me delyte
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by San Felipe View Post
    When Ancient Empire's gets released, def an AAR on that!

    But guys, when writing a Warhammer 2 AAR, aren't you literally writing your own lore?

    Say I wanted to do Cahtay, Nippon or Ind even though they're not included, is that allowed? I heard Warhammer writing isn't that great.
    NorseThing's pretty much right.

    The line between AARs and Creative Writing is notoriously blurry. It's possible to write an AAR that's only very loosely connected to a game campaign. (Hitai's Yōkai is probably the clearest example of this.) And it's possible to write Creative Writing that's inspired by a game. If you want to write a Warhammer AAR including Cathay, Nippon or Ind, then go ahead. If it ends up being more Creative Writing than an AAR, we can always move it for you.






  20. #20
    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default Re: Old vs New Total War games, and Telling Their Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Caillagh de Bodemloze View Post
    The line between AARs and Creative Writing is notoriously blurry. It's possible to write an AAR that's only very loosely connected to a game campaign. (Hitai's Yōkai is probably the clearest example of this.)
    Oh there never was a campaign for mine The idea was to eventually tie it all in to a play through of Shogun 2's historical battle challenges, which would have kept it (in my mind at least) still something akin to a true AAR actually based on gameplay. But as it is now, it isn't even loosely connected to a campaign - and after the great photobucket scandal, it's probably lost whatever claim it had to being an AAR with all the screenshots now lost. But folks like Robin, M and initially SBH also pushed those particular boundaries too; in the latter's case, probably far better than any of us who came after him.

    I'm also totally on board if someone wanted to do a Cathay AAR for Warhammer Total War! Would be fun to read that.
    Last edited by Hitai de Bodemloze; February 06, 2018 at 12:46 AM.

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