Factions get destroyed without a reason

[Sagopa]

I'm playing in late campaign and whenever i see a faction destroyed message i just toogle on and try to see how borders are changed. And i see for example hre died but when i check i see 5-6 rebel settlements. And this is when i am on 50-60 turn. So i even see rebel generals on the map in hre lands. So something is wrong. Its family tree or anythng else is wrong. I see this alot. Factions die when they have at least 3-4 settlements and at least one generals that can be king. So how can i fix this pls help me

[Roma_Victrix]

I played a campaign recently where Scotland and Norway were destroyed without being conquered, all because they lost too many family members in battle and their faction leaders and faction heirs who were left died of old age. Norway had over 6 provinces, unlike your incarnation of the HRE, so I think it's just a thing that occasionally happens. It really shouldn't, though. There should be better safeguards against that sort of thing, with more avenues for marriages. It might be a hard-coded problem with M2TW and not necessarily something the Stainless Steel team is responsible for. Perhaps it could be fixed with better scripting, though.

[Riva]

Usually this will happen if both, faction leader and heir, are in the same army and being killed in the result of battle. At this point the faction will be destroyed, even though there are other family members left. The Ai is not smart enough, to keep them seperated. On late campaign I saw the CS being wiped out countless of times, because Jerusalem was captured during a Jihad and King + Heir were in the garrison.

[Duck of Death]

Not unheard of in this game.
Ive had a few times where I was nearly wiped out (having 10-15 settlements) because of bad luck with plague, old age, and death in battle all hitting in close proximity.

That being said, it would be nice if there was a game mechanic that just randomly assigned a general or something to take over in that kind of scenario, as long as the faction had at least 1 settlement left.

Real world, if an entire royal family got wiped out, the country probably wouldn't collapse. Somebody down the line would take over.
I can imagine some political upheaval... maybe settlements take a big approval hit, possibly some rebellion.

Doesn't the Byzantines have a similar mechanic to that?
They start off with 3 separate family trees somehow.
The Doukas, Comennos and err the other one... Laskaris.

[NorseThing]

but I am not modder, but I think Duck of Death has an idea worth pursuing. Many factions historically had rival families waiting in the wings. I am also not an Historian (I am not a lot of things), but I know that England, France, and the HRE had plenty of rivals. Most factions start with generals that are not family members, so even within the SS mod we start with rivals.

[Roma_Victrix]

^ Yeah, the only way I legitimatize such an event is to use my imagination, pretending that the rival families engaged in a destructive civil war, hence the rebel settlements and breakdown of central authority. A situation ripe for the picking! Especially since rebel armies generally suck compared to factional armies led by a competent family member and containing at least some elite units.

[Sagopa]

Guys thx for your answers. Is there a way to change this? Sonthis is the mechanic of game right? If there is no general faction dies. How xan we change this? So it will be the only way to be destroyed when faction is out of settlements. Because this is really annoying. Even ai has generals and still it dies and i didnt see this in other modda. I think this is something with ss

[Roma_Victrix]

Guys thx for your answers. Is there a way to change this? Sonthis is the mechanic of game right? If there is no general faction dies. How xan we change this? So it will be the only way to be destroyed when faction is out of settlements. Because this is really annoying. Even ai has generals and still it dies and i didnt see this in other modda. I think this is something with ss

Some M2TW mods, like Europa Barbarorum II for instance, have things like faction reemergence after a faction has been destroyed. However, this cannot happen with a rebel settlement. Another faction has to own key settlements like former capitals of destroyed factions for this to work. They can then be allowed to rebel against the faction occupying their former capital city or other chief starting city. Perhaps the mod team of Stainless Steel could adopt this for their own mod. I assume it takes a lot of scripting work, though, so don't hold your breath. It also wouldn't be save-game compatible, so whatever campaign you're playing now wouldn't be able to incorporate it.

[selv]

It depends on the size of ai family tree I think. And if the game had the time or opportunity to assign a new heir/leader before the old ones get kill... Family trees and leaders/heirs are among the very hardoced things, we can manipulate the choice of the heir sometimes but if both get 'wacked' at the same time, or somehow there is no candidate of age to replace the heir when the cuurent dies, there is not much to do...

Maybe trying to spawn a male family member in some conditions, he should get quickly adopted if he isn't yet but it might require creativity, as I am not aware of conditions checking the 'status' of family trees...
And even that woudn't be a complete failsafe in case of silmutaneous death of both leader and heir. Still, I rarely saw the phenomenon, ai generally adopt a lot, preventing this kind of glitch, in general.

Some M2TW mods, like Europa Barbarorum II for instance, have things like faction reemergence after a faction has been destroyed. However, this cannot happen with a rebel settlement. Another faction has to own key settlements like former capitals of destroyed factions for this to work. They can then be allowed to rebel against the faction occupying their former capital city or other chief starting city. Perhaps the mod team of Stainless Steel could adopt this for their own mod. I assume it takes a lot of scripting work, though, so don't hold your breath. It also wouldn't be save-game compatible, so whatever campaign you're playing now wouldn't be able to incorporate it.

What you are describing is the way EB2 chose to set theirs scripts, but it isn't the only way.
The faction_emerge command work just fine on slave owned settlements, and there is no limits on what city can be targeted, aside from the public order/malus that can be beated by the engine in case of a too big difference between the target and a other random city, but it's rare with the full chain of PO buildings.

Here are all my results thought on the subject, if it interest someone, with links to other tutorials on it. Euh, not likely for beginner scripters, maybe.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-not-shadowing

I doubt that EB2 use the false shadowing method but the principle and scripts remain the same, except mine is actually more convenient I think, no spawns required and it work in all situations flaweslly, a hidden faction is never lost... Sorry for the shamless publicity... (well no, not really)

[Roma_Victrix]

Sorry for the shamless publicity... (well no, not really)

No worries, and thanks for the clarification.

[FearThePenguinz]

Hi,

Is there any solution on this? It kind of ruins the game for me when good factions just die.

I have two recent examples. Playing late era (don't know if it makes any difference).

Playing around 130 turns then Hungary gets destroyed. They were pretty big at this point and having at least 9 regions. The second is Sicily playing around 100 turns before they self died, they had 6 regions.

Its cause they dont got any heirs. In Sicilys case they didnt even went to war against anyone. Hungary im not sure but i think he died cause of the plague. Is it any fix on this?
Best fix imo is that a new king is selected like an adoption with a new blood line if the last blood line fail to produce an heir.

I dont know if family members and regular generals is co-related. What i mean by that is like there is a cap on regions vs family members/regular generals. Lets say u got 5 regions and 4 generals 1 faction leader maybe u wont get an heir until a general is dead? In that case is it possible to remove the recruiting of regular generals (generals bodyguard) to make space for family members and prevent this?

[Used2BRoz]

There is a simple solutiion to this problem.

Code in the campaign script that checks for number of family members and number of faction settlements.

If a faction has one or more settlements and less than 4 family members then it should spawn a new family member near its original capital.
Preferably with a couple of units.

This is an example (without the extra units)

monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType hre
    and not FactionIsLocal
    and I_NumberOfHeirs hre < 4

    spawn_army
        faction hre
        character    random_name, named character, age 20, x 143, y 207, family
        traits MilitaryInclination 2 , Military_Edu 2 , NaturalMilitarySkill 2 , GoodCommander 1 , Loyal 2 , ReligionStarter 1
        unit    NE Bodyguard        exp 2 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    end
terminate_monitor
end_monitor

[Khan_Omurtag]

https://www.moddb.com/mods/rise-of-b...4-mod/#7118410

Try the Rise of Bulgaria submod, it fixes all those issues.

[barterski]

There is a simple solutiion to this problem.

Code in the campaign script that checks for number of family members and number of faction settlements.

If a faction has one or more settlements and less than 4 family members then it should spawn a new family member near its original capital.
Preferably with a couple of units.

This is an example (without the extra units)

But which campaign_script file shall I use to put this code when using SS 6.4?
That one?
D:\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\mods\SS6.3\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign

Or one of these?
D:\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\mods\SS6.3\data\campaign\early\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign
D:\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\mods\SS6.3\data\campaign\late\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign

And finally, where shall I put your code? Does it matter in which line I put your code? At the end of the file, or rather at the part that concerns on interesting faction?