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Thread: Structure

  1. #1
    Tigellinus's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Structure

    Hey all

    So, I've been doing a lot of reviewing the last week - in between studying and actually doing my exams. Last one is on Tuesday!
    Anyway, it has come to my attention that, I think, one of my largest problems is structure.I know the end of a story, the beginning, and a few awesome things that I want to happen. The issue I'm finding is stringing everything together in a way that propels a story forward. So that you don't have a whole lot of unnecessary or boring scenes just to get to that one scene where you want everything to change.

    So, my writing friends, how do you do it? How do you create a coherence story and add in all the awesome parts that get you excited?

    Kind regards,

    Tigellinus




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  2. #2

    Default Re: Structure

    Hi!

    This is quite problematic for me as well. Like you, I tend to have a pretty good idea of what I want to do with the key moments in my stories but find myself struggling with the "filler." The obvious problem with the "filler" is that it shouldn't be filler - even though it will most likely never be as interesting as the climatic chapters, it must at least have a purpose.

    In my opinion, there can be no better purpose than character development. You must think carefully about those exciting moments and understand what impact they will have on your characters (if they produce no character growth, you have bigger problems than this). Assuming that they do, the key is to understand how to orchestrate the build up. If you know what steps the characters must take to reach a big scene in the state you want them to, you need only to plan the way between each of those steps. Interactions with the world, namely dialogue, are your allies. There are tropes, like the Hero's Journey, that may provide some blueprints. Even if you want to do something different, characters like the mentor and plot points like the tests and trials are useful tools.

  3. #3
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Structure

    I take a bit of a different view on structure. This is a huge topic though.

    There needs to be a hook of some sort early in the piece to give the reader a reason to keep reading. Character development takes too long to be such a hook. It can be an event -- well in Hollywood it is a perhaps a murder or a car crash, but it is a hook.

    Character development is important, but it needs to be balanced with the scenes, the numbers of key characters, and a host of other details. So the main character needs to also observe, experience, and comment on particular scenes or events. This is in addition or along side such development of the individual character. Bogart may play a hard boiled detective in the Maltese Falcon, but it is not just the Bogart character that needs development within the movie, but also the actual event of the 'black bird' that needs to be developed from scene to scene. In the movie it is not just the one character that gets developed, but a series of characters and how they tie into the story of search for the falcon.

    So, I guess I am saying that some sort of balancing within a story of an early hook, characters developed, and the events that allow for the character development all need to be tied together.

    Another device is the chapter segmentation of a story. This is a structure that can be used for your own advantage as well. A chapter can be an introduction of a character with their own story how they came about. A chapter can also be about a specific event that a number of previously introduced characters are involved in. A chapter can allow for a story to have several locations to the complete story so that first we are in one city and then the next chapter takes in a different city in the same time frame. Tom Clancy uses this chapter device for differing locations quite well. In the end each chapter needs some sort of completion on its own. And the sum of the chapters will complete the story.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Structure

    Hi, Norsething!

    I don't see our views as that different. I tend to prioritise character growth because it's what I enjoy the most in fiction. I always keep in mind that Faulkner quote about the human heart in conflict with itself.

    There needs to be a hook of some sort early in the piece to give the reader a reason to keep reading. Character development takes too long to be such a hook. It can be an event -- well in Hollywood it is a perhaps a murder or a car crash, but it is a hook.
    You're right, the hook has an urgency to it that can make it incompatible with character growth. However, it can always be argued that there's quite a lot of space for sowing its seeds. Some examples:

    The first thing Tolkien tells us in The Hobbit is: «In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.» The reader is intrigued by the creature and the writing style itself, but there is more here: Bilbo's attachment to Bag-End and its conforts is established. In the second sentence, the starting point for the character is sent on its collision course with the main plot. Even if you consider the plans to take Erebor the hook, they already implicate growth in this sense.

    Martin starts A Game of Thrones with: «"We should start back", Gared urged as the woods began to grow dark around them. "The wildlings are dead."» The reader is pulled into the world by the uneasiness and urgency. The whole chapter seems to have little implications on character growth if you consider that none of the involved live for very long. However, it establishes the true danger lurking beyond the Wall, giving you an instant "moral" compass for the characters. This is key with Jon Snow. When you realise what he'll face when joining the Watch, you appreaciate the selfness he's found in being an outcast. You can also pit anyone's motivations against the common peril - the awareness of some rises above the comparatively petty squables of others.

    In Breaking Bad, after seeing pants flying off, you are introduced to a half naked man running away from syrens in a caravan equiped with a meth-lab and full of likely dead bodies. There is a paradox between the mundane, naive appearence of both Walt and the caravan and the rest of the scene. The contradiciton is reinforced with his clumsy recording for his family before deciding to wait for his end with a gun pointed at the horizon. Such chaos is a great hook, but also a condensed look into Walt's growth during the episode and even the series as a whole.

    Movies need to do everything faster. In something as simple as the first Pirates of the Caribbean the first scene establishes Elizabeth's connection to piracy quickly and in three fronts: daydreaming (the song), Will and the medallion. At least two of those may be considered hooks or the build up to the big one - the Pearl's first appearence. At the same time, they establish three one-dimensional characters - the lonely, cocky pirate hunter, the exposition device/comic relief and the protective father. There's still time to start Barbossa's development by showing his ruthlessness (the burning shipwreck).

    In other words,
    So, I guess I am saying that some sort of balancing within a story of an early hook, characters developed, and the events that allow for the character development all need to be tied together.
    I strive for this, but trying to never loose sight of character growth as the main objective.

    As for the chapter structure, when posting on TWC, I tend to think about it like a TV series. Since time passes between updates, despite the need for individual completion, you can play with suspense and cliffhangers a lot.

    PS: Sorry for the long post.

  5. #5
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Structure

    Good topic, Tigellinus (and good luck with your exam!)

    As I see it, Admiral Van Tromp and NorseThing both make good points. I agree with Admiral Van Tromp that events which don't advance the main plot can develop character. NorseThing made a good point that character development needs to be balanced with other things which keep readers interested and that different characters can develop.

    How can we develop structure? One way, when writing an AAR, is to play a few turns ahead (looking for in-game events which could become the basis for story arcs) and write a few chapters before publishing the next one, if you can. (I do this sometimes, but not always). Does it help to create a timeline for your story and to map out major and minor story arcs, reflecting major challenges and events, friends and enemies and so on?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Structure

    Incidently i was going to post a similar thread here.Now generally stories set in exotic or unknown locations are about a journey.My Blood and Diamonds story however is about a small war and then it turns into a more personal war.How to keep readers interested.
    Basically can anyone give me tips
    1)General tips and if you like then...........
    2)Specific tips for ME.Knowing my history of writing.I really want to write my story as best as i can because all my previous stories have become too boring and stagnant.What do you think is my problem.Why are my stories so boring.
    100% mobile poster so pls forgive grammer

  7. #7
    Caillagh de Bodemloze's Avatar to rede I me delyte
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    Default Re: Structure

    People have given you really good advice already, so this may be no use at all, but I'll say it anyway, just in case...

    Obviously (and I know this doesn't really need saying), different people approach structure in different ways. Different things work best for different people. But it seems to me that this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigellinus View Post
    I know the end of a story, the beginning, and a few awesome things that I want to happen.
    is structure.

    I know you want to avoid the things you consider 'boring', but some of them are necessary. You need some changes of pace within a story - unremitting drama eventually becomes tedious. You also need some explanation now and then - if your readers don't understand the first thing about what's going on, nothing you do will make it exciting. (That doesn't mean your readers have to understand everything about what's going on, of course. But complete incomprehension isn't excitement.)

    You can, of course, flesh out your plan for your story more than the sort of outline you describe. Some people find having a detailed plan helpful, others find they lose interest if they know the whole story in advance. But however much you flesh out your plan, it'll still basically be the kind of thing you've already got (just with more, smaller, details added to it). And I'm guessing you'll still worry about the 'boring' scenes. I don't think you should. Take out the ones that are unnecessary, yes, but hang on to the ones you need.

    And if the characters (or something else about the story) won't let the plot progress the way you want it to, ask yourself why. Is it because those characters wouldn't want to do what you'd like them to? Is it because the geography isn't right for what you want? Is it something else about the world that doesn't quite fit with the plot? And then change either the problem thing (characters, geography, whatever), or the plot.


    mad orc, I'm afraid this is another thing where you just have to try things out and see what works for you personally. Admiral Van Tromp, NorseThing and Alwyn have all given really good advice, I think. The only way to know what works for you is to try!






  8. #8

    Default Re: Structure

    Please delete this post.
    Last edited by Owlparrot3; November 25, 2017 at 09:48 AM.
    100% mobile poster so pls forgive grammer

  9. #9
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by mad orc View Post
    But even then,do tell something.
    I know from conversations with various people that my stories tend to be boring,is there some huge mistake i am doing that nobody has noticed.

    Edit-Ah,now i got my problem,i write and start many stories at once so none of them are developed enough to compete with the other submissions in competitions,it feels great to see my problem after all.Hence i have decided to concentrate only on 'Blood and Diamonds.'

    What do you think friends.
    I think that the topic of this thread is how to structure stories, in response to the questions from Tigellinus.

    Do you have questions about structure or ideas about how to structure stories? If you want to talk about something else, you need to start a separate thread.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Structure

    Quote Originally Posted by Caillagh de Bodemloze View Post
    And if the characters (or something else about the story) won't let the plot progress the way you want it to, ask yourself why. Is it because those characters wouldn't want to do what you'd like them to? Is it because the geography isn't right for what you want? Is it something else about the world that doesn't quite fit with the plot? And then change either the problem thing (characters, geography, whatever), or the plot.
    This is very well said.

    I've had some instances of characters and plot clashing and it's usually the same problem - depth. Sometimes the character is quite shallow: this happens a lot with Mary Sue types (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue). In an effort to force empathy with the reader, you create someone who's either too righteous or too innocent for your plot needs (the latter is a particularly easy hole to fall into, since an innocent point of view is a great way to justify expositional dialogue).

    The key is to add flaws. But when you add them, you must keep the bigger picture in mind. Because the other problem with depth is that you may find yourself digging in the wrong direction. You can create really good characters that would never do what you need them to. This is what's difficult when you write without a plan (which I always do ) - when you are creating the story and the "cast" on the fly, striving to unite those key moments, even small problem-solving inside a scene can create deviations that will cause big problems later.

    Like Caillagh said, it's perfectly fine to write without a detailed plan, but it isn't such a bad idea. If you do it, use Alwyn's advice:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Does it help to create a timeline for your story and to map out major and minor story arcs, reflecting major challenges and events, friends and enemies and so on?

  11. #11
    Tigellinus's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Structure

    Wow! This has been amazingly insightful all! I was reading through this on my phone last night, and it was great!

    Thanks for all the help and insight! If you have anything more to add, feel free!

    Kind regards,

    Tigellinus




    Proudly under the patronage of McScottish

  12. #12
    Axis Sunsoar's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Structure

    Not much to add, lots of spectacular advice here already, but I will note that I always like to make sure as I go along that I'm creating characters, not just plot devices. Something I suffered from a lot in some of my older writing is jumping rapidly between those pre-planned scenes like you mentioned. However, this takes away pretty much any impact from these significant events, because there is no actual connection to the characters. So deaths, dramatic escapes, fulfillment of goals etc means nothing because there is no connection to the reader. The occasional cardboard character to advance plot is useful, but overall I like to make sure even lesser characters have some sort of development and become actual people instead of just objects in a story.

    This will make your writing more empathetic, and also has the convenient side effect of adding some extra bulk to your writing.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Structure

    Hey Tig,

    I've been perusing the old threads here on the WS and just found this. I just put a post on a similar thread about structure and figured rather than rehashing that answer here I'd just link you to that discussion, in the hopes that maybe you can get something out of it. Here is my post in that discussion, but there are good points made above it as well, so maybe give them a quick look-over too. I hope there's something of help in all of that.
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