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Thread: The Smyrna Fire

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default The Smyrna Fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Sigh... There is amplitude of evidence, such as the investigation report from the chief of the foreign-owned fire department Paul Grescovich, that it was not Turks but Greeks or Armenians that burned the city so that the Turks had only the ashes to take.
    EDITED to be a better Opening Post.

    I disagree. All the sailors from the ships that were taking Greek refugees while Turks were shooting people and looting said the Turks were massacring, not Greeks. My grandparents were there. Other people's grandparents were there. Most of the looting was done by Irregular Turks. Kemal, having washed his hands off the massacre officially, having given his blessing behind closed doors let the looters and murderers of our people escape with literally a slap on the hand.

    The city was obviously set on fire by vengeful Turks as retaliation for what we've done. The scorched earth policy of the Greek monarchists (I won't call them as "army" of my country since they were killing women and children) targeted Turks, not Greeks. The burned villages were Turkish. Furthermore Plastiras forces were engaged in a fight to prevent more irregulars to enter the slaughter while the royalist scum, the woman-killers, have already fled. They left Asia minor before the civilians. That's the people that the King put in charge. Only Plastiras stood there to fight in order to give time to the Greeks to evacuate. So no, there were no Greek scorch-earthers to burn a majority-Greek city. There were many many angry Turks to do it.

    Some Sources: Here are some sources claiming Turkish responsibility.
    And here is an account by a scholar from the Greek side.
    According to Lou Ureneck, the Fire of Smyrna was not an isolated incident but the final bit act of ethnic displacement (i.e. Genocide) that the Ottoman Empire and the early nation of Turkey were engaged at for 7 years. I will not go as far as saying that this is the case, but I acknowledge the Fire of Smyrna didn't happen in a vacuum; the Young Turks were quite adamant in having a Turkey for the Turks.
    Last edited by alhoon; November 25, 2017 at 04:37 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    said the guy who provided zero links in this specific issue. Why bother, really...
    I didn't provide a link for everything I said, yes, but did I provide zero links? Nope, you're simply lying. Beside the fact that a lot of what I said is covered in your own Wikipedia link (since you relied heavily on it it should have been enough), I have provided a link in my post #9518. So, why did you make that up? Also, this is still you failing to address anything I said...


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Bullcrap. All the sailors from the ships that were taking Greek refugees while Turks were shooting people and looting said the Turks were massacring, not Greeks. My grandparents were there. Other people's grandparents were there. Most of the looting was done by Irregular Turks. Kemal, having washed his hands off the massacre officially, having given his blessing behind closed doors let the looters and murderers of our people escape with literally a slap on the hand.

    The city was obviously set on fire by vengeful Turks as retaliation for what we've done. The scorched earth policy of the Greek monarchists (I won't call them as "army" of my country since they were killing women and children) targeted Turks, not Greeks. The burned villages were Turkish. Furthermore Plastiras forces were engaged in a fight to prevent more irregulars to enter the slaughter while the royalist scum, the woman-killers, have already fled. They left Asia minor before the civilians. That's the people that the King put in charge. Only Plastiras stood there to fight in order to give time to the Greeks to evacuate. So no, there were no Greek scorch-earthers to burn a majority-Greek city. There were many many angry Turks to do it.
    Sigh... Are you claiming bullcrap on the fact that plenty of evidence exists? Or that those evidence are somehow forged? The idea that it was Greeks and Armenians who burned the city has logic, common sense and evidence behind it. On the other hand, your claims mostly have biased hearsay accounts on its side. There is no logic to why Turks would burn the wealthiest section of the city, especially when the city didn't suffer any kind of battle. Greeks were already fleeing in mass. What was burned was already Turks to own. Just like Greek ancestors told many horrible memories, so did Turish ancestors. These stories usually mirror each other and shift the blame around. We know very well how many of them are exaggerated or often completely made up. The amount of brainwashing one's ancestors can bring to the future is truly pathetic.

    The Turkish Myth
    Finally, there could be no more complete refutation of the long-perpetuated charges against Turkey than the behavior of the Turkish army during the recent offensive in Smyrna. All the events of this advance have been reported by British and American papers whose policy has been consistently anti-Turkish. When the victorious army entered the region, the Christian population, remembering the precedent of 1919 when the Greeks slaughtered 4,000 Moslems, began sending out panic-stricken appeals for protection, anticipating retaliation on the part of the Turks. And the Council of the League of Nations at Geneva sent to Angora a mild request that no reprisals be made for the Greek atrocities. A strange turn of phraseology: the League of Nations admitting Greek atrocities! Gradually it dawned upon the Christians in Smyrna and upon the Christian nations of Europe that no reprisals were to be made. But the retreating Greeks in complete demoralization behaved so badly that even the efficient British censorship could not stop the leaking of news. The pillaging and burning by the defeated Greek army grew to such proportions that it was difficult for Izmet Pasha to restrain his troops from retaliation. But restrain them he did, and his men behaved with such dignity and orderliness as to profoundly impress Western observers. (How different from the actions of our own marines in Haiti!) The first Turk troops to enter Smyrna were military police who prevented looting and did their best to still the panic among the hysterical Greek civilians. The correspondents of the Chicago Tribune, the London Daily Mail, and Reuter’s stated emphatically that the unfortunate burning of the city was not in any way traceable to the Turks. In spite of these reports by correspondents who were on the spot and who have no reason to favor the Turkish cause, we still hear that the Turks burned Smyrna.

    During the retreat, Reuter’s correspondent was warned by Greek officers to leave Ouchak as that town was to be burned. I quote his dispatch from Smyrna: “The demoralization of the Greek troops was complete and the behavior of most of the Greek officers disgusting. On the retreat to Smyrna many Greek officers personally led the looting and pillaging.”
    Anything aside, the investigation by Paul Grescovich, who was the Austrian national of Serbian descent foreign-owned fire department chief of Izmir, trumps any and all witness accounts. His own men battled Armenians disguised as women or Turkish irregulars that were setting buildings on fire and shooting around.

    THE JOURNAL OF OTTOMAN STUDIES IX
    As to the source of the fires which ultimately destroyed the city «it was on Wednesday [Sept. 13th] that Grescovich himself found evidence of incendiarism. He told me that early that morning he had seen two Armenian priests escorting several thousand men, women and children from the Armenian schools and Dominican Churches where they had taken refuge down to the quays. When he presently went into these institutions, he found petroleum-soaked refuse ready for the torch>>.

    Grescovich further stated «that his own firemen, as well as Turkish guards, had shot down many Armenian young men disguised either as women or as Turkish irregular soldiers, who were caught setting fires during Tuesday night [Sept. 12th] and Wednesday [Sept. 13th] morning>>.
    Protestant Diplomacy and the Near East - (1810-1927)
    The view of Turks in Barton's message to Harding and Hughes was in- appropriate, as remarked by President MacLachlan of International Col- lege. The Turks did not massacre Greeks, as Greeks had done to Turks in May 1919. About the worst the Turkish Army did was force captured Greek soldiers to shout "Long live Mustafa Kemal" as they marched into detention. Turkish soldiers protected International College during the disruption of the occupation; a Turkish cavalryman rescued MacLachlan from irregulars who nearly beat the missionary to death while trying to loot the agricultural buildings of the college (MacLachlan suffered broken ribs and badly injured arms and legs; it took him nearly two months to re- cover). A three-day Smyrna fire (September 13-15), which Turks made every effort to control, destroyed nearly a square mile in Greek and Armenian areas and made two hundred thousand people homeless. Included in this loss was the American Board's Collegiate Institute for Girls. MacLachlan's investigation of the fire's origins led to the conviction that Armenian terrorists, dressed in Turkish uniforms, fired the city. Apparently the terrorists were attempting to bring a Western intervention.
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #3

    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    The city was obviously set on fire by vengeful Turks as retaliation for what we've done. The scorched earth policy of the Greek monarchists (I won't call them as "army" of my country since they were killing women and children) targeted Turks, not Greeks. The burned villages were Turkish. Furthermore Plastiras forces were engaged in a fight to prevent more irregulars to enter the slaughter while the royalist scum, the woman-killers, have already fled. They left Asia minor before the civilians. That's the people that the King put in charge. Only Plastiras stood there to fight in order to give time to the Greeks to evacuate.
    No, things are not white and black. Firstly, the soldiers and officers fleeing en masse from the pursuing Turkish Army were both royalists and Venizelists, especially considering that the hierarchy had not changed dramatically. Plastiras was a Venizelist captain and like many others (e.g. Trikoupis, who was actually appointed briefly as the overall commander, until the government realized he had already been captured) was allowed to remain in command. Secondly, the Greeks committed a number of atrocities even before the overwhelming defeat of Venizelos in 1920. The Erbeyli mass execution, the crimes following Izmir's occupation and the massacres of Aydin and Menemen, for example (all this between May and July 1919), occurred while Greece was under Venizelos' regime. Thirdly and most importantly, Venizelists are directly responsible for the Greek Navy being totally absent during the Great Fire of Smyrna. When chaos ensued, the retreated army and navy, under the leadership of Venizelist officers, instead of protecting the civilians, was busy launching a military coup (euphemistically called a revolution, I suspect that Greek historiography suffers from lack of impartiality) against the democratically elected government. Absolutely shameful behaviour, if you ask me, as the army, ignoring its obligations, decided to overthrow the legitimate authorities, in order to blame them for the disaster, thus absolving itself of its grave mistakes. I understand this is a sensitive topic, because of modern regional and domestic policies, but I highly recommend Llewellyn-Smith's Ionian Vision, which may be a bit outdated, but at least presents an objective summary of the events, without justifying the Venizelist policy, because they managed to eventually prevail over the royalty.

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    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    @Abdulmecid I
    Without supporting alhoon's black and white representation of Venizelist heroes vs royalist scum. I would like to point out that your post does feel rather biased too. Your comment on Greek historiography lacking impartiality for instance, which I will certainly not dispute, should not stand on its own in this discussion. The fact that Turkish historiography is just as bad if not worse should be mentioned along with it. Be that as it may, on the fire issue, you do bring up Llewellyn-Smith, who also supported the view that the Turks lit the fire. Which no matter what people wearing blinders here and/or elsewhere say is also the most logical conclusion.

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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Be that as it may, on the fire issue, you do bring up Llewellyn-Smith, who also supported the view that the Turks lit the fire.
    Llewellyn-Smith's only rationale for his decision to blame Turks in his book was refugee testimonies from a single source. Page 308. So, he's not exactly a source that you wanna rely on for that blame.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Which no matter what people wearing blinders here and/or elsewhere say is also the most logical conclusion.
    Said the man being blind to overwhelming evidence and logic in the very same page he posts in...
    The Armenian Issue

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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Llewellyn-Smith's only rationale for his decision to blame Turks in his book was refugee testimonies from a single source. Page 308. So, he's not exactly a source that you wanna rely on for that blame.
    I did not bring him up as a good objective source. I'm simply pointing out his view on the issue after he was brought up. If you take issue with him being used as a source discuss it with Abdulmecid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Said the man being blind to overwhelming evidence and logic in the very same page he posts in...
    Oh please, all you have is Grescovich's testimony. A man who had it in his best interest not to annoy the Turkish authorities that would be hosting him from now on. Plus Mustafa Kemal, not that impartial either. So no you have no evidence. As for the logic of demoralized and defeated civilians, with a very uncertain future, burning their own homes to spite the invaders, just no. That's not how logic works. I am shocked I even need to point that out. So yeah blinders. Red ones, with a nice white star and crescent on them.
    Last edited by Alastor; November 23, 2017 at 07:45 AM.

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    @Ioannis so when you said they are criminals, you actually meant they were doing the crime of holding a job? That's not a crime. It's illegal but not crime.

    And do you think it's a great leap of logic for me to assume you meant violent crime when you were mentioning rapes and murders?

    @Abdulmecid, the navy didn't exactly expect the city to be burned but yes, it doesn't do them honor. As I said, it was mostly Plastiras that tried to protect the civilians. Yes, not every commander was a Monarchist, but the majority were especially the top echelons and they have fled like rabbits.
    Also, I didn't say we committed warcrimes only during the retreat, but it was then that the monarchists adopted the scorched earth policy.
    The revolution of 1922 was of course justified because the Monarchist leadership of the army got a hard won victory and turned it to the worse disaster in Greek military history after Manzikert. And of course, it targeted the King and his puppets and not any kind of democratically elected government. They were asking the abdication of the King and new, free elections.
    I remind you that the elected government of Gounaris had resigned following the defeat and the king has chosen a government What kind of "Democratic" election is that where the king appoints a prime minister?
    Last edited by alhoon; November 23, 2017 at 08:13 AM.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    @Setekh, I brought to you even turkish sources verifying that the fire was set by the Turks. The turkish military did exactly the same in Armenian cities, some years before that, so it was not the first time they did this. The firse were set by the TURKISH PLUNDERERS, mainly irregulars. It's EXACTLY as alhoon and Alastor are telling you.
    You said a lot while ignoring everything I said, yes... What Armenian city did Turks burned a few years before? Whats funny though is that you try to use unrelated and unreferenced burning of other cities as a ground for your position while you completely ignore what Greeks were doing in the region right before that big fire happened...

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    . Armenian transvestite arsonists, and dressed up as turkish irregulars. The story smells so much of , that one need only ask the question, how did his men know that they were Armenians dressed up as turkish irregulars and not turkish irregulars? Did they speak to them, while they were fighting. What a load of crap.
    His team got to shot a few as they fought the flames. It's quite easy to spot whose an imposter if a Christian is trying to loosely pass as a Muslim...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I did not bring him up as a good objective source. I'm simply pointing out his view on the issue after he was brought up. If you take issue with him being used as a source discuss it with Abdulmecid.
    So, he should agree with 100% of what he said? He didn't present it as an infallible source. He presented it as a good source and you picked it up at the part where it had least substance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Oh please, all you have is Grescovich's testimony. A man who had it in his best interest not to annoy the Turkish authorities that would be hosting him from now on. Plus Mustafa Kemal, not that impartial either. So no you have no evidence. As for the logic of demoralized and defeated civilians, with a very uncertain future, burning their own homes to spite the invaders, just no. That's not how logic works. I am shocked I even need to point that out. So yeah blinders. Red ones, with a nice white star and crescent on them.
    Grescovich actually left Izmir after the fire... Grescovich is the most qualified source for this issue. Normally, the issue would have been over after invoking him, but, the blinders kick in. How? By trying to blur stuff. I never used Atatürk's testimony for example, as I would label it as a biased source, but I used different foreign ones. Yet, you invoked a source I didn't use while ignoring the others claiming I only have Grescovich.

    You claim that its illogical that the defeated would burn their own property that they were leaving behind, while Greeks did just that through out western Anatolia, while you seem to find it logical that Turks would burn what they managed to win over by taking back the city. Ridiculous...
    The Armenian Issue

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    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    So, he should agree with 100% of what he said? He didn't present it as an infallible source. He presented it as a good source and you picked it up at the part where it had least substance.
    Totally, the point you disagree with is suddenly the one with the least substance. Bah, I said my piece on that. Discuss it with Abdulmecid if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Grescovich actually left Izmir after the fire... Grescovich is the most qualified source for this issue. Normally, the issue would have been over after invoking him, but, the blinders kick in. How? By trying to blur stuff. I never used Atatürk's testimony for example, as I would label it as a biased source, but I used different foreign ones. Yet, you invoked a source I didn't use while ignoring the others claiming I only have Grescovich.
    I don't know what happened to Grescovich after these events. So feel free to provide a source. Make sure it shows how Grescovich had nothing to gain by lying for the Turkish authorities. That he was perfectly aware his post was over. That he was guaranteed safe passage. That he was in no way threatened/influenced by the presence of Turkish soldiers all around him etc. Also I did not see you point out another contemporary source. I mentioned Kemal, because he is the only other contemporary source I know of that claims the fire was not started by Turkish irregulars. If there is another contemporary source you mentioned, please do so again, I missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    You claim that its illogical that the defeated would burn their own property that they were leaving behind, while Greeks did just that through out western Anatolia, while you seem to find it logical that Turks would burn what they managed to win over by taking back the city. Ridiculous...
    The Greek civilians did just that? Not the Greek army? That for the record was not in control of Smyrna when the fire started. And it was their own homes? Please present your sources. Where did Greek civilians burn their own homes? And no what is ridiculous is that you claim that civilians burning their own homes is more likely than vengeful, undisciplined irregulars that just had their own homes burned by the enemy army doing the burning in retaliation. And I didn't even touch the absurdity of the argument that armies wouldn't damage what they "won over".
    Last edited by Alastor; November 23, 2017 at 09:23 AM.

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    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    @Abdülmecid I
    I accept your clarification, at this point we agree.
    That said, I would still like to hear your opinion on the fire thing, if you have one.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    His team got to shot a few as they fought the flames. It's quite easy to spot whose an imposter if a Christian is trying to loosely pass as a Muslim...
    Oh yeah? How exactly? Because I've personally passed for a muslim many times.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Totally, the point you disagree with is suddenly the one with the least substance. Bah, I said my piece on that. Discuss it with Abdulmecid if you want.
    Sigh, it's the one with the least substance because I actually checked the primary source and what he bases his conclusion on is very limited as I already pointed out. Your piece was quite pointless. It's yours, not Abdulmecid I's.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I don't know what happened to Grescovich after these events. So feel free to provide a source. Make sure it shows how Grescovich had nothing to gain by lying for the Turkish authorities. That he was perfectly aware his post was over. That he was guaranteed safe passage. That he was in no way threatened/influenced by the presence of Turkish soldiers all around him etc. Also I did not see you point out another contemporary source. I mentioned Kemal, because he is the only other contemporary source I know of that claims the fire was not started by Turkish irregulars. If there is another contemporary source you mentioned, please do so again, I missed it.
    Sigh... You have absolutely no proof or sensible reason that Grescovich lied, hence, the amount of detail you ask is quite unnecessary. And I did not point out another contemporary source? You're not even on a different page and you were talking about blinders...


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    The Greek civilians did just that? Not the Greek army? That for the record was not in control of Smyrna when the fire started. And it was their own homes? Please present your sources. Where did Greek civilians burn their own homes? And no what is ridiculous is that you claim that civilians burning their own homes is more likely than vengeful, undisciplined irregulars that just had their own homes burned by the enemy army doing the burning in retaliation. And I didn't even touch the absurdity of the argument that armies wouldn't damage what they "won over".
    In fact, you didn't touch anything I said. You're making little twists to the topic and trying to push things into defensible positions. It's pathetic. Greek and Armenian civilians, whether they supported the invading Greek army or not, became part of the defeated, hence many, if not all, fled. I already provided sources. You can go in circles all you want.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Oh yeah? How exactly? Because I've personally passed for a muslim many times.
    A) You would be cricumsized, Turks wouldn't be.
    B) You likely would wear a cross, Turks wouldn't.
    C) Your inner clothes would differ from the one Turks wear since we're talking about different cultures, Turks wouldn't have.
    D) You might have been spotted hiding in a church, Turks wouldn't be.

    It's not rocket science.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; November 23, 2017 at 11:14 AM.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #13
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Sigh, it's the one with the least substance because I actually checked the primary source and what he bases his conclusion on is very limited as I already pointed out. Your piece was quite pointless. It's yours, not Abdulmecid I's.
    Of course it was pointless. You disagree with it so it must be. Either way you still fail to understand that I'm not defending him as a source, I'm simply not playing that game. He was brought up, I mentioned what he said on the subject, the end. So yes, it's up to Abdulmecid to defend the source he brought up, not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Sigh... You have absolutely no proof or sensible reason that Grescovich lied, hence, the amount of detail you ask is quite unnecessary. And I did not point out another contemporary source? You're not even on a different page and you were talking about blinders...
    A man at the mercy of the Turkish authorities surrounded by soldiers would have no reason to lie to avoid displeasing them? Right. And I checked your post again and still don't see the second contemporary source you are referring to. You brought 3 sources, an article written 10 years ago, the journal of Ottoman studies that quotes Grescovich (claiming some Armenians arsonists were shot) and a book written 50 years after the events claiming the responsible were "Armenian transvestites", which however laughable a claim it might be still doesn't claim it was Greek civilians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    In fact, you didn't touch anything I said. You're making little twists to the topic and trying to push things into defensible positions. It's pathetic. Greek and Armenian civilians, whether they supported the invading Greek army or not, became part of the defeated, hence many, if not all, fled. I already provided sources. You can go in circles all you want.
    Yes it is pathetic, since in fact I answered to your point fully and reasonably. Try doing the same. Because if anyone is going in circles here its you. Of course, I am not really surprised.
    Last edited by Alastor; November 23, 2017 at 11:42 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    A) You would be cricumsized, Turks wouldn't be.
    B) You likely would wear a cross, Turks wouldn't.
    C) Your inner clothes would differ from the one Turks wear since we're talking about different cultures, Turks wouldn't have.
    D) You might have been spotted hiding in a church, Turks wouldn't be.

    It's not rocket science.
    A) You would be cricumsized, Turks wouldn't be.
    I think you mean that Turks would be circumsized, but I wouldn't be, because Orthodox Christians aren't circumsized. And how exactly did they spot that detail on fully dressed (dressed up as turkish irregulars) men? Were these disguised Armenians walking with their dicks out, or what?

    B) You likely would wear a cross, Turks wouldn't.
    Some wear a cross, some don't. But even so, they usually wear the cross from the inside. They would most definitely not go into all the trouble of disguising themselves as Turk troops and wear the cross from the outside.

    C) Your inner clothes would differ from the one Turks wear since we're talking about different cultures, Turks wouldn't have.
    Again, as A.

    D) You might have been spotted hiding in a church, Turks wouldn't be.
    If they were dressed up as Turkish irregulars, they wouldn't do that in order to "hide". They would do that in order to escape. It would be utterly stupid to go into the trouble of disguising themselves only to hide somewhere.
    And you said that they were caught burning the city. Were they burning the city from inside a church while hiding? How did they do that?

    Generally, what you are saying is not making any sense whatsoever.
    From burning the city when there was no plan of escape for them to being disguised as Turks and go and shoot "enemies" ie practically commit suicide, rather than escape, it's just one big turkish lie, like most of what Turkey says in order to cover its criminal past. It makes me wonder, though, how it's possible that so many people in Turkey actually believe that . I think deep down inside most Turks know what Turkey is all about, but they don't want to admit it and are just grasping at straws. I would advise Turks to take the red pill.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  15. #15
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    OK, to be brief and avoid further of topicness. My unshakable opinion on the Smyrna Fire is: Turkish irregulars did it partially as retaliation for what the monarchists were doing and they were shooting people (including shooting at some Turks of Smyrna that were rich \ collaborationists my grandmother said). The monarchists have already packed and left mostly, following our defeat leaving the civilians to suffer for their crimes. Plastiras was the only one fighting to buy time for the people and the refugees love him for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    That said, I would still like to hear your opinion on the fire thing, if you have one.
    You know what? When it comes to historical discussions, I hear very good things about the Vestigia Vetustatis!

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    It is both illegal and a crime to work illegally. Why? Because if you don't pay anything to insurance organisations, if you don't pay due tax for what you do, it is unfair for the person who works legally and pays the aforementioned dues, and it is also unfair because you can ILLEGALLY compete with said person, and put him/her out of business. THAT is why. SO it is both illegal, AND a crime (toward the person who pays all his dues, and because of that, he cannot survive in the busines, and so is the VICTIM).
    At the same time, BECAUSE they are not "seen" as working people, they get all sorts of benefits ILLEGALLY. Again, we have the victims, the people who are poor and thus LEGALLY entitled to get said benefits, but don't get them.
    You do know that resources are actually FINITE.

    Add to all that, the fact that most of non-violent, (but potentially violent) crime such as selling drugs is in the hands of various "refugees" or "immigrants". Someone who sells drugs will potentially act violently but this is only the by-product of his activity, if he doesn't have to act violently he won't, so it's not counted as violent crime per se.

    And as I said, at best, even when they are not involved in any crime, violent or not, apart from the crime of entering the country illegally, they are an added burden to the social system, which is already strained beyond measure.
    In all of those you have a point. I don't agree with everything, frankly I think you go too far, but there's something to debate here. At last. That's a position rooted in reality.
    "See what the immigrants are doing EVERY DAY!" + A long list of murders and rapes and then "all immigrants are criminals!" is not. It is a rant. In your previous posts you were talking about rape, murder and very violent crime, that is something done by 0.4% of the immigrants (according to my estimation).

    Now, you talk about things like tax evasion, taking jobs of Greeks, tanking the welfare system and things that yes the presence of 1.5M immigrants does. I can understand and discuss things like "When it comes to unemployment \ social services, we're 3 feet under the ground and the immigrants keep digging!"

    So keep it at this level instead of insinuating Greece has ~1.5M murderers. If that was true, Greece would see more deaths per year than under the axis occupation.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    A few days ago, one homeless man in Chania, died. http://www.naftemporiki.gr/story/129...ros-se-upogeio
    He was well known in Chania, as he was selling cookies on the street, trying to survive. Nobody helped him. Yet, for the "refugees" there are special houses in Chania, and there have been since July. Where were the "humanists" of the Steki? where were the anarcho-"humanists" of the Rosa Nera squat?
    He didn't starve you know. And he was welcome in Rosa Nera and had stayed in some of those buildings for the homeless and drug users. He was homeless, not starving. His death was not from hunger or exposure. He had a heart problem or so he was saying. He was also ... not young. Not sure how old.
    Also, are we sure he died? I would swear I saw him near the Supermarket I go a week ago or so. Not to mention that when the other homeless died from the cold (the one you can legitimately complain we abandoned to his fate) there was a sensation in Chania for days.
    Last edited by alhoon; November 23, 2017 at 08:53 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  16. #16

    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Of course it was pointless. You disagree with it so it must be. Either way you still fail to understand that I'm not defending him as a source, I'm simply not playing that game. He was brought up, I mentioned what he said on the subject, the end. So yes, it's up to Abdulmecid to defend the source he brought up, not me.

    A man at the mercy of the Turkish authorities surrounded by soldiers would have no reason to lie to avoid displeasing them? Right. And I checked your post again and still don't see the second contemporary source you are referring to. You brought 3 sources, an article written 10 years ago, the journal of Ottoman studies that quotes Grescovich (claiming some Armenians arsonists were shot) and a book written 50 years after the events claiming the responsible were "Armenian transvestites", which however laughable a claim it might be still doesn't claim it was Greek civilians.

    Yes it is pathetic, since in fact I answered to your point fully and reasonably. Try doing the same. Because if anyone is going in circles here its you. Of course, I am not really surprised.
    With such a statement you post is not even worthy of a point by point response.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    I think you mean that Turks would be circumsized, but I wouldn't be, because Orthodox Christians aren't circumsized. And how exactly did they spot that detail on fully dressed (dressed up as turkish irregulars) men? Were these disguised Armenians walking with their dicks out, or what?
    Some wear a cross, some don't. But even so, they usually wear the cross from the inside. They would most definitely not go into all the trouble of disguising themselves as Turk troops and wear the cross from the outside.
    Again, as A.
    If they were dressed up as Turkish irregulars, they wouldn't do that in order to "hide". They would do that in order to escape. It would be utterly stupid to go into the trouble of disguising themselves only to hide somewhere.
    And you said that they were caught burning the city. Were they burning the city from inside a church while hiding? How did they do that?
    Generally, what you are saying is not making any sense whatsoever.
    From burning the city when there was no plan of escape for them to being disguised as Turks and go and shoot "enemies" ie practically commit suicide, rather than escape, it's just one big turkish lie, like most of what Turkey says in order to cover its criminal past. It makes me wonder, though, how it's possible that so many people in Turkey actually believe that . I think deep down inside most Turks know what Turkey is all about, but they don't want to admit it and are just grasping at straws. I would advise Turks to take the red pill.
    Sigh... You're talking from a perspective as if they had no chance to examine the bodies they managed to shot down... Just because you disguise yourself as someone else doesn't mean you wouldn't at one point hide in a church... You're making issue out of really simple stuff which shows how meritless your position is. These are not based on Turkish lies, but on common sense, logic and foreign investigations. You're not just making really senseless examination of whats been said but you're trying to use a level of detail that you don't feel the need to use against your own position.
    The Armenian Issue

  17. #17
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    You know what? When it comes to historical discussions, I hear very good things about the Vestigia Vetustatis!
    You engaged in this discussion here earlier and longer than me. So you know what? Back at you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    With such a statement you post is not even worthy of a point by point response.
    Aka your arguments were smashed to the ground, your logic exposed for the delusional fallacy it is... and it's now time to save some face. Sure sure, I get it. But it's ok, I will spare you the embarrassment of trying to go down that path further. However hypocritical alhoon's stance above might have been, he still has a point. Not the place.

  18. #18
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: The Smyrna Fire

    MOVED from the Political Mudpit to the Vestigia Vetustasis. Keep it Civil.

  19. #19
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You engaged in this discussion here earlier and longer than me. So you know what? Back at you.
    Aka your arguments were smashed to the ground, your logic exposed for the delusional fallacy it is... and it's now time to save some face. Sure sure, I get it. But it's ok, I will spare you the embarrassment of trying to go down that path further. However hypocritical alhoon's stance above might have been, he still has a point. Not the place.
    It was not hypocritical. I made a mistake and strayed deeeeeply off topic. Thankfully it was moved to the right place so we can all talk about it to our heart's content.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
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    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  20. #20
    gastovski's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Smyrna Fire

    Fire started by Armenians after Greeks left the city. Police Chief report is a solid evidence. From 7 September to 9 September city burned and Fireman couldn't stop it. Then Turkish vanguard troops entered and seized the city.
    Last edited by gastovski; November 25, 2017 at 09:31 AM.

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