Zheng He's voyages were they as large as claimed?

[Common Soldier]

The voyages of the Ming had been stopped for a number of decades before the Europeans arrived in China by sea, so they were not a factor in the Chinese stopping their westward voyages. The Europeans were filling a role that had been em pty.

There was considerable smuggling by Japanese pirates between Japan and China, even if there was no legal trade. Also, Chinese and Japanese merchants could meet in foreign ports outside of China to exchange goods, directly or indirectly.

Note, before the Song dynasty much of the sea born trade between China and further west was conducted by foreign ships. The Chinese monk Fasian took a non Chinese ship when returning from India, and while there were large populations of Muslim merchants in Chinese port in the Tang dynasty I don't recall a Chinese populations of similar size in Muslims areas at the same time, suggesting the sea trade was heavily in the hands of non Chinese at the time..

[Ludicus]

the.. Spanish also colonized Taiwan, then known as Formosa,to act as middlemen between China and Japan.

Not exactly. The episodic, unsuccessful expedition to Formosa was to attract Chinese traders to Manila, and also an attempt to curtail the Dutch expansion.The expedition to Formosa was an episodic/exceptional and unsuccessful joint venture approved by the State of India. Trade between Portuguese and Spanish overseas possessions had been forbidden by a royal order of 1581 and by viceregal decrees issued in Goa and New Spain.

The officials of Portugal and Spain in Macau and Manila (and even the private traders) sometimes didn't care too much about it...and accidents happen: in 1590 João da Gama who had been captain of Malacca avoided to be sent to Portugal in irons by making a trans pacific crossing directly to Acapulco....where he was arrested and sent to Seville to stand trial.

That said, the most important economic function of the Spanish possession in the east, Philippines - was to act like an entrepot between the New World and China. Chinese junks brought silk, porcelain and other goods from Canton to Manila.

The Portuguese were the middleman between China and Japan. Trade with the Chinese flourished unabated, particularly when the Ming dynasty cut off trade with Japan in 1523. It was the well known the triangular trade Guangzhou/Macau/Japan.
In fact,the Spanish aspirations to seek direct direct and diplomatic relationships with China led to aggravation and hostilities between Spaniards and Portuguese.
The Luso-Japanese trade attained unprecedented levels just before 1639 (the year of the Japanese ban); but the fall of Melaka to the Dutch at the start of 1640s, and then the closure of the Macau-Manila trade as a consequence of the Portuguese Restoration, was a severe - but not a definitive blow to Macanese traders.
After the formal Portuguese-Spanish relations were restored by 1668, the Portuguese (Macau) were trading again with Manila. Trade with China never ceased entirely, even during the Quing imposed ban in the 1660s. After 1670s the trade received again a Chinese formal blessing in 1680.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Little known but Tokugawa Ieyasu had sent two expeditions to establish control over Taiwan. The stated mission of the expedition was to establish forts and locations for trade with the Chinese and Europeans. Both expeditions ended in failure, the first landed having run out of supplies and picked off by the native tribes and the second expedition was largely destroyed by storms in the East China Sea.

[Roma_Victrix]

Not exactly. The episodic, unsuccessful expedition to Formosa was to attract Chinese traders to Manila, and also an attempt to curtail the Dutch expansion.The expedition to Formosa was an episodic/exceptional and unsuccessful joint venture approved by the State of India. Trade between Portuguese and Spanish overseas possessions had been forbidden by a royal order of 1581 and by viceregal decrees issued in Goa and New Spain.

The officials of Portugal and Spain in Macau and Manila (and even the private traders) sometimes didn't care too much about it...and accidents happen: in 1590 João da Gama who had been captain of Malacca avoided to be sent to Portugal in irons by making a trans pacific crossing directly to Acapulco....where he was arrested and sent to Seville to stand trial.

That said, the most important economic function of the Spanish possession in the east, Philippines - was to act like an entrepot between the New World and China. Chinese junks brought silk, porcelain and other goods from Canton to Manila.

The Portuguese were the middleman between China and Japan. Trade with the Chinese flourished unabated, particularly when the Ming dynasty cut off trade with Japan in 1523. It was the well known the triangular trade Guangzhou/Macau/Japan.
In fact,the Spanish aspirations to seek direct direct and diplomatic relationships with China led to aggravation and hostilities between Spaniards and Portuguese.
The Luso-Japanese trade attained unprecedented levels just before 1639 (the year of the Japanese ban); but the fall of Melaka to the Dutch at the start of 1640s, and then the closure of the Macau-Manila trade as a consequence of the Portuguese Restoration, was a severe - but not a definitive blow to Macanese traders.
After the formal Portuguese-Spanish relations were restored by 1668, the Portuguese (Macau) were trading again with Manila. Trade with China never ceased entirely, even during the Quing imposed ban in the 1660s. After 1670s the trade received again a Chinese formal blessing in 1680.

Thanks for the lengthy correction. My comment about the Dutch on Formosa/Taiwan still stands, though.

Little known but Tokugawa Ieyasu had sent two expeditions to establish control over Taiwan. The stated mission of the expedition was to establish forts and locations for trade with the Chinese and Europeans. Both expeditions ended in failure, the first landed having run out of supplies and picked off by the native tribes and the second expedition was largely destroyed by storms in the East China Sea.

Heh! That's interesting. His predecessor failed to take Joseon Korea. I guess the Japanese had bad luck when it came to overseas ventures, but on the other hand had incredibly good luck when faced by the monstrous naval invasions of the Mongol Empire. Those typhoons are brutal.

[Ludicus]

. My comment about the Dutch on Formosa/Taiwan still stands, though. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\PROPRI~4\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

Absolutely. Always love your posts.Keep them coming!
Just to clarify, in 1607 the Ming Dynasty refused to permit the Dutch to trade with China, so the Dutch East India Company established the base in Taiwan -that was the main reason.

Little known but Tokugawa Ieyasu had sent two expeditions to establish control over Taiwan

Indeed. But in the end the Japanese trade with China was successful.
Just out of curiosity, in 1609 the Shimazu clan took control the Ryukyu Islands/Okinawa. At the time Ryukyu was a trading kingdom submitted to the Chinese tribute system. So what they did? the Shimazu kept their control secret from the Chinese so they could profit from the trade. In 1611 Yeyasu encouraged Chinese merchants to trade in Nagasaki. so during several years it was an active trade between Taiwan, Luzon (Philippines), Siam (Thailand) and Ryukyu.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Was that meant to be a question?

[Ludicus]

Was that meant to be a question?

No.
I would like say that the key to success in the Ryukyu islands was the military conquest followed by the tributary system, and the failure with the Japanese Christian expeditions to Taiwan was the impossibility to implement a tributary system: Taiwan had no ruler, there was no central authority with whom to make contact.

There was no real attempt to conquer Taiwan in the first military expedition (in fact there were 3 expeditions, latu sensu), because Arima s's commission didn't contain any orders to permanently occupy the territory. They just took some aborigines prisoners, they were presented to Ieyasu, who soon realized that he was not dealing with ambassadors, and they were allowed to return home.

The second expedition was not a military expedition, was just an attempt to regain favour of a rich merchant, called Murayama Toan, the leading Christian layman in Nagasaki, daikan of Nagasaki in 1605, a very interesting character, a man with an amazing story of life, also involving his superior in Nagasaki, and Arima. The name "Toan" cam from his baptismal Portuguese name "Antonio".

The first "expedition" in 1593 was not a true expedition, it was a diplomatic approach, a letter that was impossible to deliver, there was nobody to receive the letter in Taiwan.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Not just that but they didn't have enough men to conquer Taiwan anyway. They basically just wanted to establish some outposts and establish trade in the area.

[athanaric]

Good point. I don't know what to say.
That said, let's hear the author of book, Perpetual Happiness: The Ming Emperor Yongle, page 188,

"...Saifi-d-Din, the ruler of Bengal (who often sent live okapi to Yongle as tribute)..." etc.

That would mean (unless there's an error somewhere) that the Bengal rulers got those animals from Africa via some kind of Muslim sea trade network (Europeans - at least educated ones - are unlikely to have been involved, since they only discovered the Okapi in the 19th century); not entirely unlikely, since this guy's name is obviously Arabic.

[Ludicus]

Not just that but they didn't have enough men to conquer Taiwan anyway.

That is a very interesting question.
In fact,it's hard to understand the motivation behind sending the expedition to Taiwan.The number of the soldiers remains unknown, no Japanese records of the voyage survived, but according to a primary foreign source there were only 13 ships in the fleet, so the term "invasion" would be inappropriate.By comparison, the invasion of Ryukyu involved 3,000 soldiers conveyed on between 70 and 100 ships.
And it seems that only one ship reached Taiwan.The three large ships of Murayama ended up in Cochin and only returned to Japan over one year later.It seems that they went raiding in China, according to Richard Cocks, in a letter to Richard Wickham ( july, 1616) : " the three ships went out upon the coast of Chin, where they killed 1,200 chinas and taken all the barkes or junks they met w'thal..."
July 7, diary entry "3 of the Twans barkes returned which should have gone for TacceSangue, or the island of Formosa,but went no thither, but rather a boot-haling on the coast of China, where they taken 11 boats or junks..."
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Stephen Turnbull argues that it was largely the nature of Taiwan itself that frustrated Japan's schemes.The Japanese favorite approach was an approach based on the tributary model, and Twain had no ruler who could participate, willing or not, in the modus operandi that has been applied to Korea (1592) and Ryukyu (1609).
He argues that Taiwan's fragmentary structure (tribes without a leader) lead it open to a more western-style form of development involving the establishment of a military base and colonization.

Anyway there are records of pirates trading peacefully with the Taiwanese mainly for deerskins, and these were the exports most prized in Japan, where there was an increase demand for leather for use in military equipment.In 1624 there is a record of the export of 18,000 deerskins on a single japanese ship.

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That would mean (unless there's an error somewhere) that the Bengal rulers got those animals from Africa via some kind of Muslim sea trade network

Most probably, yes.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

To establish control in Taiwan I would say the method used in Hokkaido and Sakhalin would have sufficed. The problem being that the Japanese would have needed to send troops there to establish some sort of control based on the feudal system. Well for that to succeed you of course need a feudal lord who is capable and willing to establish feudal control there. That or the Bakufu itself to send their own resources and give control to someone else, which as you might imagine is problematic in and of itself.

[Common Soldier]

To establish control in Taiwan I would say the method used in Hokkaido and Sakhalin would have sufficed. The problem being that the Japanese would have needed to send troops there to establish some sort of control based on the feudal system. Well for that to succeed you of course need a feudal lord who is capable and willing to establish feudal control there. That or the Bakufu itself to send their own resources and give control to someone else, which as you might imagine is problematic in and of itself.

Yet the Dutch managed to control Tawain until the Chinese kicked them out. The Japanese must not have wanted to put much effort into controlling Tawain. Perhaps after Korea, Japan did not want to get invovled in a major campaign.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

The Dutch also had better technology to reach Formosa. Though their real goal was to subvert the Spanish and the Portuguese by establishing forts in areas which the others had not claimed yet. Indeed the Portuguese and Spanish presence on Formosa was short lived as well. The Chinese did not so much kick out the Dutch as it was Koxinga's Ming Loyalist Army. Though judging by how rapidly the Qing conquered Taiwan one could probably assume that a well funded expedition by the Ming themselves could have done the same, I mean if one ignores all of the problems that the Ming were experiencing just prior to their invasion by the Jin Jurchens.

The Japanese only wanted to establish trade in the area. It was not a well funded or organized campaign to conquer Formosa. The Japanese also struggled with their naval capabilities so that sailing to Formosa without encountering problems, especially storms, was extremely difficult. In fact if one looks at the Japanese presence abroad most of it was accomplished with Chinese style sailing ships.

[LaMuerte]

The only boob who argues otherwise is Gavin Menzies, who is not a historian (a submarine commander turned charlatan and book merchant more or less), so I'm surprised you bothered to mention him.

True story: I got Menzies' 1434: The year a Magnificent Chinese fleet sailed to Italy and ignited the Renaissance. It's the only book so far I removed from my collection. I couldn't give it away in case it infects the flock , couldn't burn it out of fear for being called a zealot. So I hid it behind a false wall when renovating my place. No mortal shall lay eyes on it during my lifetime. It's really that awful...

@Gavin Menzies: How can you sleep at night?

[LaMuerte]

delete

[LaMuerte]

delete (o dear,triple post)

[Ludicus]

True story: I got Menzies' 1434: The year a Magnificent Chinese fleet sailed to Italy and ignited the Renaissance.... It's really that awful.

Well,judge by yourself (post 13) Navegações chinesas no século XV. Realidade e ficção -Chinese navigation, reality and fiction, 15th century. A few critical comments on the book 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, by Gavin Menzies.

[Common Soldier]

True story: I got Menzies' 1434: The year a Magnificent Chinese fleet sailed to Italy and ignited the Renaissance. It's the only book so far I removed from my collection. I couldn't give it away in case it infects the flock , couldn't burn it out of fear for being called a zealot. So I hid it behind a false wall when renovating my place. No mortal shall lay eyes on it during my lifetime. It's really that awful...

@Gavin Menzies: How can you sleep at night?

Acrually, I think his book would be useful in teaching a class of history. His errors are so obvious, they would be used to train students to evaluate other history claims who's flaws are not as obvious.

While a particular bad example, Menzies' flaws in his methods are not unique.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I've never read that book but I don't want to.

[Roma_Victrix]

True story: I got Menzies' 1434: The year a Magnificent Chinese fleet sailed to Italy and ignited the Renaissance. It's the only book so far I removed from my collection. I couldn't give it away in case it infects the flock , couldn't burn it out of fear for being called a zealot. So I hid it behind a false wall when renovating my place. No mortal shall lay eyes on it during my lifetime. It's really that awful...

@Gavin Menzies: How can you sleep at night?

His next book (probably): 3500 BC: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Atlantis and Ignited the Bronze Age.

Gavin Menzies is an infamous hack. It's a shame that you can't return the book in good faith. You should reconsider burning it, though, as good kindling. Or keep it just for a laugh and how not to write a bogus "history" of something. The most annoying part about it is that the journeys of Zheng He's Treasure Fleet form a very fascinating episode in Chinese history, arguably the sheer height of their imperial power projection overseas as far as East Africa. This topic in and of itself is rather fascinating. Unfortunately now there is a small segment of the population, thanks to Menzies' first book, that believe it was actually a mission to discover the Americas before Columbus. He poisoned the narrative and sowed discord into a serious academic study and historical event so that he could enrich himself as a shamelessly proud and open phony.