Why was mail used and not scale/lamellar armor used in Western Europe?

[Common Soldier]

I wouldn't trust my life to any armor that hasn't been maintained. If you don't keep maille maintained it rusts and loses its usefulness in a few years too.



The lamellar cuirasses I mentioned are all late 6th century (Rome extends into 7th century, variety of finds of different hole patterns, plate cuts, etc as it was an arms manufacturing center for the empire). Some of the lamellar helmets are 8th century. Kirchheim and Dilingen-Reis are 6th-7th centuries.

Scale armor is widespread in the West in the 6th century AD, we see it in art all the time]

while lamellar might not require much maintenance, mail requires even less. As long as you store it dry, it shouldnqt rust, and shaking it a bag should eliminate any little surface rust.

If a lamellar had been sitting on the shelf for 50 yrs, even if the lacings lookee good, but I would trust the mail, as long as it was not rusted.

as for scale being widespread, I have already given the reasons that the art is not necessarily a reliable guide. Let me ask you this question - if scale or lamellar were common as claimed, why aren't they listed on the Ripurian code? If you have any legal code from the early medieval period listing scale or lamellar, I would like to know. I would be interested to know the cost difference berween scale/lamellar and mail.

I have only seen mail cost listed, not scale or lamellar on various medevial documents. Does that indicate that mail was considered the mail type of metal armour, so much so that the cost of scale and lamellar aren1t even listed? .

[Condottiere 40K]

Successful recycling would require besides corrosion maintenance regime, some way to tailor the armour suit to the next wearer.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

while lamellar might not require much maintenance, mail requires even less. As long as you store it dry, it shouldnqt rust, and shaking it a bag should eliminate any little surface rust.

I have both. I know how to maintain it.

If a lamellar had been sitting on the shelf for 50 yrs, even if the lacings lookee good, but I would trust the mail, as long as it was not rusted.

If you oil it every few months (maille or lamellar) it will almost never rust. Leather will have to be replaced every 10 years-ish (properly oiled of course to maintain it).

Let me ask you this question - if scale or lamellar were common as claimed, why aren't they listed on the Ripurian code?

I'm guessing you're using a translation? Last I checked Ripuarian Law says lorica which just means armor.

Successful recycling would require besides corrosion maintenance regime, some way to tailor the armour suit to the next wearer.

That's not really an issue for maille or lamellar. Plates can be added or removed easily. Maille is usually one-size-fits most. This is basically why Lorica Segmentata fell out of use, because it HAS to be custom fitted (speaking from experience, because it's literally painful if it isn't).

[Common Soldier]

I'm guessing you're using a translation? Last I checked Ripuariai
n Law says lorica which just means armor.

You are correct, the original said lorica. Other codes and documents refer to brunia But if there was a significant difference between scale or lamellar and mail/armour then you would think the code would some how distinguish between the 2. The fact it doesn't implies either mail wasn't more expensive, or that only one kind of ar our was being used, the other armours being uncommon enough not to bother to mention in the code?

If scale and lamellar were commonly being used with mail, the lack of different words in the document for armor indicates they didn't think there was a significant difference in either cost or performance between the different tyoes of armor.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Probably the latter. Armor was extremely rare and the cost of having any hauberk (maille, scale, or lamellar) was probably roughly the same.

[Condottiere 40K]

The cost of half a Scottish village.

[Roma_Victrix]

One might want to consider the inside of brigandine jackets:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...rnal_view).JPG

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

It's arguable whether the brigadine or the coat of plates constitutes as lamellar. Aren't they riveted, not stapled/sewn?

[sumskilz]

It's arguable whether the brigadine or the coat of plates constitutes as lamellar. Aren't they riveted, not stapled/sewn?

Yeah, but if you think of it from the perspective of function rather than construction, it seems to have served about the same role as the lamellar jawshan did in the Near East, which does address the thread topic question to some extent.

[Common Soldier]

Yeah, but if you think of it from the perspective of function rather than construction, it seems to have served about the same role as the lamellar jawshan did in the Near East, which does address the thread topic question to some extent.

Brigandine did not have quite the same role as jawshan. Brigandine was popular because it was cheaper than full plated mail, or just mail. Thd popularity of jawshan armour was not because it was cheaper than the other armour aavailable.

Nor does the existence of bbrigandine really answer the issue raised by the topic. Why was true lamellar, with the metal exposed on the outside, not used medieval western Europe? The plates in brigandine are part of a jacket, not all/by themselves as in a mail shirt or a true lamellar armor.

Lamellar and scale was common in Eastern Europe, the east/ but not in medieval western Europe..

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I found those Carolingian-era manuscripts I was referring to. Lots of scale armor:

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sear...gs=%22scale%22

[Roma_Victrix]

I found those Carolingian-era manuscripts I was referring to. Lots of scale armor:

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sear...gs=%22scale%22

You're doing God's work there, Magister Militum Flavius Aetius, by both defeating Attila, hence saving Christendom, and simply sharing these pics with us today. The righteous shall not go unrewarded, either, as I have filled your coin purse with +1 rep. Go! Find a tavern, a mug, a wench, and be merry.

Seriously, though, these illustrations were pretty cool...and illustrative of the fact that medieval artists from England to Italy and Germany to Spain clearly depicted soldiers and knights wearing scale armor. I'll grant the OP that it was not as common as chain mail or plate armor during the later period, but it was a thing that existed. It could also be said that it was rather common in medieval Spain, even among Christian knights and soldiers.

[Common Soldier]

I found those Carolingian-era manuscripts I was referring to. Lots of scale armor:

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sear...gs=%22scale%22

Actually, many of the illustructions toward the bottom of the page ..of what you say is scale armor is in fact mail. While the armor shown in the famous Bayeux Tapestry of the Battle if Hastings might look like scale, it is just how the artist drew mail. It is difficult for some artist to show the small rings that make up mail.

Some of the armor, the ones at the top, are ideed scale armor. However, based on the shape of the helmets, they don't appear to be western European soldiers being shown. You will find a lot of depictions of scale armor on peoples from other lands, and in pictures of Old Testament battles. The European illustrators knew the Byzantine and others used scale armor, and so would draw characters from the easr with scale.

When you look at the archaeological record, of what was buried in western tombs, and such, mail is what you find, not scale, as I already showed on previous post. Scale in Western Europe is found only on warriors originally from the East, such as Avar or Maygar warriors. I can find only one Frankish grave with scale armor, over dozens with mail, from the early middle ages, for example. You might find an occasional piece of scale armor in Western Europe and its colonies, such as in a Viking site in Sweden, or a Spanish site in the New World, but those are cases of foreign armor being used. A soldier isn't going to pass up a perfectly good piece of armor that they got cheap from trade or conquest (such as during the Crusades) in place of no armor at all.

But when you look at the archaeological record, and when the artistic rendering is good, like in the stone effigies of coffins, mail is completely dominates. In the battle of Visby, we have numerous examples of mail, virtually none of scale. In the Sutton Hoo burial, we have remains of mail, none of scale.

PS - When it comes to biblical maunuscripts, European illustratios often copied illustrations from Byzantine manuscripts, especially in the Carolingian times. So the armor in these copies often are similar to what Byzantine soldiers were wearing. One of the illustration is clearly David and Goliath,

If you look at Renaissance biblical paintings, they are often a mix of what artist thought eastern clothing and contemporary European. So Mary and Jospeph might be wearing robes of what the artist thought people of the mideast would wear, and the soldiers wearing a mix of contemporary armor and ancient Roman. So you have to be careful using artistic pictures to make judgements on the armor of the period based soley on the picture. The artist might use a mix of what he knew foreigners of the region wore with what local soldiers wore. A helmet and armour shirt mixed with a sword of European design for a biblical Old Testament scene.

[sumskilz]

It looks to me, like this is scale and mail side by side:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Same here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[hellheaven1987]

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sear...gs=%22scale%22

Mmm, nice site.

[Mamlaz]

I believe those depictions are indeed scale, especially those with pronounced edges, to that, there are even images that depict both mail and scale on the same dude;

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/921-24.jpg

not sure how you could argue that both being mail.

[Common Soldier]

I believe those depictions are indeed scale, especially those with pronounced edges, to that, there are even images that depict both mail and scale on the same dude;

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...nal/921-24.jpg

not sure how you could argue that both being mail.

I agree, that definitely is scale. But the helmet design/hat doesn't match anything I have seen for European medieval warriors, looks like more something a Byzantine or someone from the east would wear. When you compare a Sutton Ho helmet or those on the Bayeux Tapestry, it doesn't look like anything.

As I said, especially in the case of biblical illustrations, many European ones were copies off of Byzantine originals, and the illustrators in biblical stories might have reflected what the artist thought the OT warriors would wear.

It looks to me, like this is scale and mail side by side:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Same here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It does appear that some of the soldiers are wearing scale armor. And these soldiers don't appear to be foreign ones, their helmets and shields, are the same as the other soldiers in the picture. The artist may have taken some license, since the different armor styles allowed him to better separate the individual soldiers. So while that picture does seem to indicate scale/lamellar armor is more common than I had assumed, we have to be careful using art work to make definite conclusions. I would be interested in knowing the background of what the illustrations were trying to depict.

It is just one you look at the archaeological remains, the lack of scale armor is very clear. I know of only one Frankish grave with scale, and of the Viking sites, only one or 2 out of dozen have any scale armor. In the Battle of Visby, there is a distinct lack of scale armor evident, out of hundreds of examples of mail. So while scale or lamelar armor might have been used, it seems based on the physical remains it was nowhere near as common as mail.