Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 139

Thread: Board of Directors Management

  1. #41
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Reaching members for what???

    Again, this just looks like stiring the air to simulate activity.
    Do you know that the Curator can use the CMS articles if he wants to make an official communication able to reach all members at once?

    I've never said that StealthFox proposal would bring more activity but because simple, it can be easily tried to see what happens and without bad consequences in opposition to this proposal as pointed by Halie.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; November 27, 2017 at 05:16 AM. Reason: typos
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  2. #42

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    reach out to the community and create an open dialogue to discuss problems and possible solutions
    To echo Myself and Lifth, what exactly would they be reaching out for other than recruits? What kind of problems? An example on the latter would be appreciated.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulGamesInc View Post
    To echo Myself and Lifth, what exactly would they be reaching out for other than recruits? What kind of problems? An example on the latter would be appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Reaching members for what???
    The purpose of the Curia is to be a place for "Premium member" or Citizens to state their complaints and offer suggestions. However, it is ignored for a plethora of reasons. The activity of the site is decreasing (fast) now. People still enjoy the uniqueness of the site, but refuse to "get involve." Having a "citizen" reach out to other citizens in an official capacity is the best way to get valuable input on where this site is lacking. It will help nurture the sense of community that has been lost.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Again, this just looks like stiring the air to simulate activity.
    I have no idea what you mean, but I am not proposing a light and magic show. I wouldn't waste 5 minutes on that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Do you know that the Curator can use the CMS articles if he wants to make an official communication able to reach all members at once?
    Do you know the last time it was actually used?
    Do you know how many members actually read that specific areas?
    if a means of communication does not reach its intended audience then it is not communication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    I've never said that StealthFox proposal would bring more activity but because simple, it can be easily tried to see what happens and without bad consequences in opposition to this proposal as pointed by Halie.
    Simple is not a reason to support something. There is a problem and a the solution should resolve the issue. One of the issues with the lack of applicants for certain Curia positions is the lack of prestige. Stealthfox suggested giving the Curator more responsibility doesn't make it more prestigious. It gives the position more work. It is more likely the the duty will be ignored than fulfilled. Case in point the CMS article.

    Halie made a vague reference to something that happened in the past. It has nothing to do with what I am proposing. There are no bad consequences with my proposal, except that it doesn't work, but then it wouldn't matter anyway.

  4. #44
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
    Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Czech Republic
    Posts
    8,528

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Similarily to the posts before, Im slightly sceptical about usefulness of the liaison officers. What would they be doing (still waiting for info about that...)? I suspect most of their possible responsibilites would be similar to what is the staff already supposed to be doing (and as far as I can tell, the staff in general is doing good work on the site, at least in the parts of forum Im present). In the worst case (if we are very pesimistic), it could destabilize staff leadership in some parts of forums , and possibly lead to some unfortunate arguments between staff/liaison.

    On the other hand, I assume most of citizens suitable for those positions would be those, whom already are staffers (most likely the overseers/elder staffers/... to be specific), so such issues I mentioned would probably not happen, but then I ask why give the same people two more or less same roles. And if a liaison wasnt a member of staff, then we could have those issues I mentioned in the beginning. Anyway, I wonder how would he be able to effectively work in the area he was elected for, if he wasnt allowed to know about internal staff matters, due to the site rules?

    If we wanted to go with the idea of liaison officers in general, I think more relevant would be if we were talking about how to improve communication between staff and the curia. Instead of adding an office that could be, in theory, opposing the staff. More reasonable might be talking about what should the local staff be doing differently, adding some new responsibilities and tasks to them (for example encouraging members to become citizens), adding new kinds of local staff (so those sectins you suggested would have their local staff, if they dont have it already and need it) and for example establishing some sort of communication between curia and staff. What could work, I assume, is if the local staff elected their representative in the curia (those that also are citizens in the same time of course) for the roles you suggested, who would be representing interests of their sections. However, I suspect the curia doesnt actually have any say on what is the staff doing, thus such suggestions might have to be taken elsewhere anyway... (Can someone more known of these things than me enlighten me about a legal relation between the staff/curia? )
    Last edited by Jadli; November 27, 2017 at 08:44 AM.

  5. #45
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The purpose of the Curia is to be a place for "Premium member" or Citizens to state their complaints and offer suggestions. However, it is ignored for a plethora of reasons. The activity of the site is decreasing (fast) now. People still enjoy the uniqueness of the site, but refuse to "get involve." Having a "citizen" reach out to other citizens in an official capacity is the best way to get valuable input on where this site is lacking. It will help nurture the sense of community that has been lost.
    So basically we're back to the point mentioned by Ngugi on the 1st page. I can't see the point to contact all citizens of this site anytime somebody basically post something in the Curia. That's useless considering that Citizens who want to be involved in the Curia come regularly in this place.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I have no idea what you mean, but I am not proposing a light and magic show. I wouldn't waste 5 minutes on that.
    See answer above.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Do you know the last time it was actually used?
    Do you know how many members actually read that specific areas?
    if a means of communication does not reach its intended audience then it is not communication.
    Last time the CMS was used was in January 21, 2016. That's basically the only article written by a Curator (Iskar in this case - see here for those who haven't noticed it). Considering that this particular article has so far about 12,700 views, that CMS articles can easily reach 2,000 to 3,000 views within a month, and that any member can comment them, I wouldn't say that it doesn't reach the intended audience. It is just under-used by the Curia.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Simple is not a reason to support something. There is a problem and a the solution should resolve the issue. One of the issues with the lack of applicants for certain Curia positions is the lack of prestige. Stealthfox suggested giving the Curator more responsibility doesn't make it more prestigious. It gives the position more work. It is more likely the the duty will be ignored than fulfilled. Case in point the CMS article.
    Unless I'm wrong, what SteathFox said is that to get more prestige, the Curator should act like any other Content Staff Director, with goals to achieve, not only for the Curia but for the site as well. In his task he would be helped by assistants or deputies. If you think that the task is too big for the Curator and 2 assistants, then we just need to add 1 or 2 more. From my opinion, if the Curator and his assistants have only the Curia and the LHF to take care, that's not a Hercules' task. The only thing we need is someone with the time and the will to do that.It doesn't need to be a huge thing at the beginning. Start small and it can grow with time. No need to rush.
    Now, if we're not already able to find applicants for Curial positions (1 Curator, 2 Censors and 2 Magistrates which is a total of 5 people), how do you expect to find 6 or 10 of them? The problem of finding applicants remains.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Halie made a vague reference to something that happened in the past. It has nothing to do with what I am proposing. There are no bad consequences with my proposal, except that it doesn't work, but then it wouldn't matter anyway.
    True (and I don't call that a "vague reference" btw) but as pointed, the consequences can be the same. Nowadays, with the current activity, it would just kill the Curia. I wouldn't take that risk.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; November 27, 2017 at 09:01 AM.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  6. #46

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    Similarily to the posts before, Im slightly sceptical about usefulness of the liaison officers. What would they be doing (still waiting for info about that...)? I suspect most of their possible responsibilites would be similar to what is the staff already supposed to be doing (and as far as I can tell, the staff in general is doing good work on the site, at least in the parts of forum Im present). In the worst case (if we are very pesimistic), it could destabilize staff leadership in some parts of forums , and possibly lead to some unfortunate arguments between staff/liaison.
    On the other hand, I assume most of citizens suitable for those positions would be those, whom already are staffers (most likely the overseers/elder staffers/... to be specific), so such issues I mentioned would probably not happen, but then I ask why give the same people two more or less same roles. And if a liaison wasnt a member of staff, then we could have those issues I mentioned in the beginning. Anyway, I wonder how would he be able to effectively work in the area he was elected for, if he wasnt allowed to know about internal staff matters, due to the site rules?
    I think you are confused between the what the Curia is and what staff does.
    Staff works for the administration of the site to perform specific task. For example; Content staff (the largest group) archives important content produce on the site in the Scirptorium. The specific staff charged with this duty are the Librarians. There are also content staff responsible for writing and publishing "articles" in a series of publication from "The Helios," The "Eagle Standard," "critics Quill," etc... Content is also responsible for the TWC media publications, like the Youtube channel, twitter account and the facebook page. There is also a wiki staff as well. Apart from content there is also a Gaming Staff. They organize and run hotseating/ multiplayer games. There also used to be a vault Staff responsible for saving smaller mods and tools for the modding community. Last but not least, is the Moderation staff.

    None of these position have much to do with the Curia. In fact, one of the best ways to earn citizenship is by joining staff. So, if any non-citizens out there reading this, and you want to be a citizen, then check out many of the opportunities this site offers. I digress. The Curia is place for citizens to address any issues they have or to make any suggestion they feel would be beneficial to the site. If you feel you have a worthwhile idea you can go to the Curia, draft and propose a change to the site. The Curia will debate the merits of your proposal, then if enough support it, it will go to vote. If pass, baring technical or financial issues, admin will implement the "will of the citizenship." There is a problem with that. The Curia have not made any significant proposals in years and when it did it had very little participation.

    Staff performs a specific task. They write articles, edit the wiki, moderate the forum and organize and run games. The Curia Officer will do none of that. His not to support or hinder staff tasks. His role, regardless of which option, is to be point person for citizens and non-citizens to state issues they may have. In other words, instead of expecting the citizen to come to the Curia, the Curia comes to you. Instead of having citizens articulate and defend their proposal, they can share them with the Liaisons and have the Liaisons advocate for it. Many people do not want to deal with a bureaucracy. They would much rather have someone else deal with it. Thi will improve citizenship efficacy, increase the sense of community and thus give greater value to citizenship, thus making it more desirable to become one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    If we wanted to go with the idea of liaison officers in general, I think more relevant would be if we were talking about how to improve communication between staff and the curia. Instead of adding an office that could be, in theory, opposing the staff.
    Staff is made up of citizens and non- citizens. As I mentioned above, it is how best to become a citizen.
    Curia is citizens only.
    Staff performs specific tasks under the direction of the administration.
    The Curia is a collection of citizens who are the key contributors on the site sharing their thoughts about what they think the site should/ ought to provide.
    There is no conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    More reasonable might be talking about what should the local staff be doing differently, adding some new responsibilities and tasks to them (for example encouraging members to become citizens), adding new kinds of local staff (so those sectins you suggested would have their local staff, if they dont have it already and need it) and for example establishing some sort of communication between curia and staff. What could work, I assume, is if the local staff elected their representative in the curia (those that also are citizens in the same time of course) for the roles you suggested, who would be representing interests of their sections. However, I suspect the curia doesnt actually have any say on what is the staff doing, thus such suggestions might have to be taken elsewhere anyway... (Can someone more known of these things than me enlighten me about a legal relation between the staff/curia? )
    It was content staff that kept citizenship going for years on the site. The Curia was the RPG playground of content. When the CdeC was removed, the playground disappear and declining interest in content has led to the current state of thing. It is great to have staff encourage and patronize "staff" for citizenship, but what next? As it is now, the Curia has virtually no activity and in the past two years it has only played around with its own forum and "its constitution." That is hardly an attractive place to visit. Most citizens do not bother with the Curia, patronization or anything. This proposal is about encouraging participation through reaching out to each community for the betterment of the site. The only way to increase activity is by creating an environment where ideas about how the site can proceed can be discussed. Unless this happens, this site will slowly become .org sadly.

  7. #47
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    I can't see how this "board" will make the Curia more attractive, especially considering that this "board" will play into Staffs' turf
    ... Or it means that this "board" will just be useless and will hurt more that helping. I won't change my mind until you give that clear and simple example asked by SoulGamesInc. So far, you have failed.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; November 27, 2017 at 09:44 AM.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  8. #48

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    So basically we're back to the point mentioned by Ngugi on the 1st page. I can't see the point to contact all citizens of this site anytime somebody basically post something in the Curia. That's useless considering that Citizens who want to be involved in the Curia come regularly in this place.
    See answer above.
    The embolden part doesn't make sense. I never made any such statement.
    Secondly, the lack involvement is the point of the proposal. The citizenship is useless without consensus. You cannot have consensus without participation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Last time the CMS was used was in January 21, 2016. That's basically the only article written by a Curator (Iskar in this case - see here for those who haven't noticed it). Considering that this particular article has so far about 12,700 views, that CMS articles can easily reach 2,000 to 3,000 views within a month, and that any member can comment them, I wouldn't say that it doesn't reach the intended audience. It is just under-used by the Curia.


    Unless I'm wrong, what SteathFox said is that to get more prestige, the Curator should act like any other Content Staff Director, with goals to achieve, not only for the Curia but for the site as well. In his task he would be helped by assistants or deputies. If you think that the task is too big for the Curator and 2 assistants, then we just need to add 1 or 2 more. From my opinion, if the Curator and his assistants have only the Curia and the LHF to take care, that's not a Hercules' task. The only thing we need is someone with the time and the will to do that.It doesn't need to be a huge thing at the beginning. Start small and it can grow with time. No need to rush.
    Now, if we're not already able to find applicants for Curial positions (1 Curator, 2 Censors and 2 Magistrates which is a total of 5 people), how do you expect to find 6 or 10 of them? The problem of finding applicants remains.


    True (and I don't call that a "vague reference" btw) but as pointed, the consequences can be the same. Nowadays, with the current activity, it would just kill the Curia. I wouldn't take that risk.
    This is my point. The Curator is not even communicating anything via the CMS. My PMs have been 10x more effective than the CMS. Views mean diddly squat. As a former director once said, "we need everyone to open and READ their emails."

    Again, as I stated, the position that we currently have lack prestige and a real purpose!. Assigning additional menial tasks will not add prestige, just more work. How is that making them more attractive?
    In Option 1, it is 6 member board. They have in their responsibilities to work with the various communities. They do not open and close threads and or open and close polls. The Curator position is a coordinator of this effort. In addition to their role of liaison with various communities, they assist in the daily chores as well. The chores are in addition to their role of community liaison duties. That is a whole new ball of wax. In other words, stealthfox's suggestion doesn't go far enough to address the prestige issue and it actually adds more work. In option 3, it is more clear that there is a set purpose.

    Lastly, it was a vague reference. Apart from what you read in that post, what else do you know about it? I suspect nothing. You have only his analysis of the situation. I suggest that you read up on it yourself.
    For the record: It has been years since any meaningful proposals about the site have been passed and implemented. The last citizenship application was in June. The censor position has been contested twice (once involving me to make interesting and the other were two members I had personally PM'ed to give the Curia another shot. The Curia has flat lined! We can go much lower than this. I hope not!

    All of this being said, my proposal is design to address both the issues;
    Lack of activity
    Lack of prestige and purpose
    lack of community

    In my proposal;
    it promotes activity by increasing communication to each community
    By electing members specifically with the task of reaching out to the communities, it adds both prestige and purpose to all elected positions.
    Through community action, it increases a sense of community by increasing citizen efficacy. It will always bring communities together.
    This in turn will promote citizenship and patronages because it will have real meaning and purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    I can't see how this "board" will make the Curia more attractive, especially considering that this "board" will play into Staffs' turf
    You mean after I wrote everything above explaining the difference you still don't understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    ... Or it means that this "board" will just be useless and will hurt more that helping. I won't change my mind until you give that clear and simple example asked by SoulGamesInc. So far, you have failed.
    I gave detailed explanation of the role several times. As long as the Curia remains as is, it is as good as useless now.
    I do not think you have any intention of "changing your mind." I think in your mind you think by being argumentative that i will somehow see an error, but i thought this through already. I know it will work. It is question if other's see as well. When you want to see it you will see it too. Until then, I just wait. Things certainly will not get better.
    Last edited by PikeStance; November 27, 2017 at 09:59 AM.

  9. #49
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
    Patrician Citizen Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    20,306
    Blog Entries
    46

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    Similarily to the posts before, Im slightly sceptical about usefulness of the liaison officers. What would they be doing (still waiting for info about that...)? I suspect most of their possible responsibilites would be similar to what is the staff already supposed to be doing (and as far as I can tell, the staff in general is doing good work on the site, at least in the parts of forum Im present). In the worst case (if we are very pesimistic), it could destabilize staff leadership in some parts of forums , and possibly lead to some unfortunate arguments between staff/liaison.

    On the other hand, I assume most of citizens suitable for those positions would be those, whom already are staffers (most likely the overseers/elder staffers/... to be specific), so such issues I mentioned would probably not happen, but then I ask why give the same people two more or less same roles. And if a liaison wasnt a member of staff, then we could have those issues I mentioned in the beginning. Anyway, I wonder how would he be able to effectively work in the area he was elected for, if he wasnt allowed to know about internal staff matters, due to the site rules?

    If we wanted to go with the idea of liaison officers in general, I think more relevant would be if we were talking about how to improve communication between staff and the curia. Instead of adding an office that could be, in theory, opposing the staff. More reasonable might be talking about what should the local staff be doing differently, adding some new responsibilities and tasks to them (for example encouraging members to become citizens), adding new kinds of local staff (so those sectins you suggested would have their local staff, if they dont have it already and need it) and for example establishing some sort of communication between curia and staff. What could work, I assume, is if the local staff elected their representative in the curia (those that also are citizens in the same time of course) for the roles you suggested, who would be representing interests of their sections. However, I suspect the curia doesnt actually have any say on what is the staff doing, thus such suggestions might have to be taken elsewhere anyway... (Can someone more known of these things than me enlighten me about a legal relation between the staff/curia? )
    This is a sensilbe post, based on a clear understanding of what the things actually are in the Site (at the least for the most part); for convenience I higlighted all the parts that I deem very relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post

    The only way to increase activity is by creating an environment where ideas about how the site can proceed can be discussed. Unless this happens, this site will slowly become .org sadly.
    This is your personal opinion in any case and you keep mixing up the Curia with the Site; I really don't know why you are convinced that if the Curia fades away (something I wouldn't like to see happening, just to clarify) the site has to end the same way. You have been told many times, from different sources, that the site is ruled by the Staff and if you keep ignoring this simple fact and pretend that the Curia can in any way be made into a sort of lesser site mangement (or similar role) then you shouldn't be really surprised if people keeps rejecting your proposals.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  10. #50
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Again, give us an example of what the b oard will do. So far, you haven't described anything different that the Curator and his assistants do or even worse, that any Citizen can do (open htread in the Curia). Do you want to limit that basic Citizen right???
    So by "reaching communities" what do you mean? Be clear, simple and go straight to the point please. So even I would be able to understand. I thank you in advance.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  11. #51

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Having a "citizen" reach out to other citizens in an official capacity is the best way to get valuable input on where this site is lacking.
    This still doesn't answer the question of what exactly these offices would be reaching out to accomplish, beyond recruiting, problems within communities are handled by Staff (who know the section) and not the Curia (who largely do not). If you envision these offices having any legitimate say over Staff decisions then I'm fundamentally against the notion. Gaming Staff simply wouldn't accept any 'proposals' made that in any manner drastically changed the community or it's running without the prior agreement of Gaming Staff itself and/or Hex. The vast majority of the Curia is not in the least qualified to decide anything of an imposing nature on Hotseaters behalf and I doubt any staff Gaming or Content or otherwise would be accepting of interfering in cases where the majority Curia may have near no knowledge of the area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    On the other hand, I assume most of citizens suitable for those positions would be those, whom already are staffers. And if a liaison wasnt a member of staff, then we could have those issues I mentioned in the beginning. Anyway, I wonder how would he be able to effectively work in the area he was elected for, if he wasnt allowed to know about internal staff matters, due to the site rules?
    It depends on exactly what Pike expects these liaisons to be proposing because there is a very clear line for me where (especially if it's a non-staff member) it could easily be interfering even if by simple ignorance, and that's where I draw a big scary line in the sand. It's either a case of a Staff member taking the office and arguably doing little differently or a non-staff member taking it and at best potentially interfering; at worst going over staffs head to implement something (potentially harmful) that staff disagrees with. Unless these proposals have no effect on the running of any section under staff... and if that's the case... what exactly would they be proposing? New medals? Awards? Citizens?

    If it's primarily reaching out to recruit... why the extra pomp? Would they not just be glorified Curia recruiters? Not that I'd be against a 'Recruiter' role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadli View Post
    What could work, I assume, is if the local staff elected their representative in the curia for the roles you suggested, who would be representing interests of their sections.
    Every member of staff that becomes a Civ is already representing a branch, it's why I've aimed to scout more members and have a decent list of names, so GS/HS has more presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Gaming Staff. They organize and run hotseating/multiplayer games. Staff performs a specific task. They write articles, edit the wiki, moderate the forum and organize and run games. The Curia Officer will do none of that. His not to support or hinder staff tasks. His role, regardless of which option, is to be point person for citizens and non-citizens to state issues they may have.
    Gaming Staff run games, create mods, manage players, awards, structure and general policy on things like tournaments/events/threads/rules etc. If there are changes to be made or improvements to be done or things to discuss, we do it among ourselves, or approach the community if needed. With all of this covered I fail to see exactly what any Curia Officer would serve to propose (in Hotseating at least, not speaking for Content) that staff isn't already handling.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by Flinn View Post
    This is a sensilbe post, based on a clear understanding of what the things actually are in the Site (at the least for the most part); for convenience I higlighted all the parts that I deem very relevant to the discussion at hand.

    This is your personal opinion in any case and you keep mixing up the Curia with the Site; I really don't know why you are convinced that if the Curia fades away (something I wouldn't like to see happening, just to clarify) the site has to end the same way. You have been told many times, from different sources, that the site is ruled by the Staff and if you keep ignoring this simple fact and pretend that the Curia can in any way be made into a sort of lesser site mangement (or similar role) then you shouldn't be really surprised if people keeps rejecting your proposals.
    Actually, I have not mixed anything up. I have never stated half the things you claimed above.
    What I have stated is that this sites popularity was based on a sense of community. That is absent.
    The Curia (citizens of the site) represents the synergy of the site. Within synergy, this site will wither and die.

    The Administrators of the site are responsible for administration of the site. I do not recall ever stating the opposite.
    The Staff serves the membership as they do with all sites. If a site is poorly administer people simply go to another site.
    Sites with good administration are well supported and successful.

    Citizenship value is integral its own maintenance. As its relative value drops so does the appeal. Citizenship is what distinguishes this site from other sites. If this is lost, then this site uniqueness will fade thus its place (business terms) market share will drop.
    As I said, if this site wants to be the next .org, then it is well on its way of accomplishing this goal. I hate to see that happen. My proposals are based on that.

    Again, as I said, staff is not where one turns to if they have a complain or a suggestion. The Curia is. The proposal is about empowering citizens to utilize that feature so that administrators, like you, can be more effective in proving the platform for their enjoyment. How that is a conflict and not harmonious with staff is beyond me. I mean is this what this all about? Staff vs Curia. That seems odd and very counter- productive.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulGamesInc View Post
    This still doesn't answer the question of what exactly these offices would be reaching out to accomplish, beyond recruiting, problems within communities are handled by Staff (who know the section) and not the Curia (who largely do not). If you envision these offices having any legitimate say over Staff decisions then I'm fundamentally against the notion. Gaming Staff simply wouldn't accept any 'proposals' made that in any manner drastically changed the community or it's running without the prior agreement of Gaming Staff itself and/or Hex. The vast majority of the Curia is not in the least qualified to decide anything of an imposing nature on Hotseaters behalf and I doubt any staff Gaming or Content or otherwise would be accepting of interfering in cases where the majority Curia may have near no knowledge of the area.

    It depends on exactly what Pike expects these liaisons to be proposing because there is a very clear line for me where (especially if it's a non-staff member) it could easily be interfering even if by simple ignorance, and that's where I draw a big scary line in the sand. It's either a case of a Staff member taking the office and arguably doing little differently or a non-staff member taking it and at best potentially interfering; at worst going over staffs head to implement something (potentially harmful) that staff disagrees with. Unless these proposals have no effect on the running of any section under staff... and if that's the case... what exactly would they be proposing? New medals? Awards? Citizens?
    Citizens do not "recruit" citizens. Patronages are far more personal than that. It is also not exactly relevant either.
    One of the reasons why I like option 3 better is precisely what you had stated above. In fact, some time ago, I made a suggestion that the Curia might be better off being decentralized. I called it the "Little Communities." approach. Since TWC is made up of many diverse communities with their own ideas and their own way of doing things then it makes sense to have each community decide for themselves how best to manage the site. I told at the time that I would destroy the Curia. In my mind, it would be several "council" each patronizing its contributors and managing itself. The Curia would be a collection of "assemblies" rather than one giant one. The Curia would exist as a General Assembly. Anyway, I digressed again.

    There isn't a conflict between citizens and staff. The representative whether elected in option 1 or by the community itself in option 3 could very well be a "staff member themselves." Moreover, there will be crossovers. A person can be patronized as a Artifex, but then later choose to be a Librarian. The point of the outreach is to make citizens aware of their position within the site and have them exercise their citizenship in a positive way to improve the community. This empowerment would had value to citizenship and promote patronages and so on. In regards to the Gaming side of the site. It is the leadership that should promote citizenship and its value to the site. It should strengthen the community, which in turns will increase activity because people like to belong to a community, virtual or otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulGamesInc View Post
    If it's primarily reaching out to recruit... why the extra pomp? Would they not just be glorified Curia recruiters? Not that I'd be against a 'Recruiter' role.
    Curia doesn't recruit, it rewards.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulGamesInc View Post
    Every member of staff that becomes a Civ is already representing a branch, it's why I've aimed to scout more members and have a decent list of names, so GS/HS has more presence.
    Like I said, the goal is to empower citizens. By doing so, it will strengthen the community promoting citizenship.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulGamesInc View Post
    Gaming Staff run games, create mods, manage players, awards, structure and general policy on things like tournaments/events/threads/rules etc. If there are changes to be made or improvements to be done or things to discuss, we do it among ourselves, or approach the community if needed. With all of this covered I fail to see exactly what any Curia Officer would serve to propose (in Hotseating at least, not speaking for Content) that staff isn't already handling.
    This proposal would not change or hinder that process.
    The Curia is a place to discuss complaints and grievances for citizens. The Curia represents all citizens. Even know communities may be an island to itself, they are all part of the site in general. Another reason why I like option 3 is one, there will be badge that recognizes Gaming as a valuable contribution unique onto itself, and two, the community will have there own person on the board that can help guide all communities together creating a universal bond.

    I also advocated for a Modding Staff and that did not go over so well. This proposal and that proposal would work hand in hand. The focus is different.

  14. #54
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    City of Jan Baert
    Posts
    13,950
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    You still don't explain how this "board" will make citizenry more appealing. You still don't explain how this "board" will reach communities.
    So let's take an example: Let's suppose that SoulGamesInc is part of this board and responsible for anything related to HS/MP community. What would be his task and duty as "board officer"?

    Below, several points you seem to have missed in your reasonning above:
    1. TWC is not one community but rather many communities with no or almost no connexion. How many Medieval II gamers go on regular basis to Napoleon or Rome II or Warhammer forums (and the other way around of course)? How many hotseaters go to the Mudpit? How many RPG go to the Creative or Graphic Workshops?
    2. Why members would use more the Curia instead of existing forums such as "Questions & Suggestions" or "Moderation Commentary" or by contacting directly the concerned persons (Moderators and/or Content Staffers and/or Hexers)?
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  15. #55

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Just do be clear, I'd sooner vote to dissolve the Curia than allow any curially elected person to interfere with the RPG section in any form.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Below, several points you seem to have missed in your reasonning above:
    1. TWC is not one community but rather many communities with no or almost no connexion. How many Medieval II gamers go on regular basis to Napoleon or Rome II or Warhammer forums (and the other way around of course)? How many hotseaters go to the Mudpit? How many RPG go to the Creative or Graphic Workshops?
    If you note above, i recognized this nearly three years ago. I made this suggestion. (The Little Communities Idea) Option 3, is a take off of that concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    2. Why members would use more the Curia instead of existing forums such as "Questions & Suggestions" or "Moderation Commentary" or by contacting directly the concerned persons (Moderators and/or Content Staffers and/or Hexers)?
    Curia description: Come to discuss matters of the republic, complaints, grievances, and nominations. Citizens only!
    It is literally the place where any citizen should go. The proposal makes it easier by having a dedicated member reach out to citizens to be involve.
    The more dynamic the site is the better. You don't want to attract people here, you want to keep them here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    You still don't explain how this "board" will make citizenry more appealing. You still don't explain how this "board" will reach communities.
    I said so numerous time. This is why I say you are argumentative. I explain it and literally the next post, you say I don't. I can only type it so many different ways. If you don't like or agree with the mechanism then so be it, but why make me write it over and over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    So let's take an example: Let's suppose that SoulGamesInc is part of this board and responsible for anything related to HS/MP community. What would be his task and duty as "board officer"?
    Each community is different. I know what i will do within the modding community, but I know little about the gaming area. The primary duty will be communication with citizens within the community. If it was me, I would find out which citizens are gamers. Then I will develop a survey to see if the site is meeting their needs. If not, I will ask for suggestions. Depending on the responses, I will decide the best course of action. If on staff, i will see if it something internally that can be change. If not, see how I would go about drafting a proposal. Now once, these lines of communication is open, you keep it open. As new members come in, ensure they are welcome. If you are staff already, then that will be within your duties (assuming here).

  17. #57
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Frankfurt, München, somtimes my beloved Rhineland
    Posts
    6,395

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Site allegedly lacks community spirit -- make proposal for hydrocephalic board of ten Curialists to administrate those ten Curialists -- everyone is united against the proposal -- community spirit strengthened.

    Brilliant! Mission accomplished. Tea and crumpets for everyone. Then back to work, layabouts.
    Last edited by Iskar; November 27, 2017 at 03:50 PM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Citizens do not "recruit" citizens. Curia doesn't recruit, it rewards.
    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    There isn't a conflict between citizens and staff. Option 3 could very well be a "staff member themselves.
    Recruit, scout, patronize. Whatever term you wish to use, these offices seem to exist primarily to result in more citizens with these 'proposals' being either largely embellishment or at worst encroaching. If there is no conflict in these proposals (meaning no proposal interferes in any meaningful way with Staffs running of sections) then what are they worth? What's the extent of the proposals without encroaching on staff matters?

    Allow me to give some examples. GREEN is acceptable. RED is unacceptable. I will leave a brief note as to why...
    "To implement a 'Best Hotseater' Curia medal for X requirements over Y and Z" - This would be an acceptable proposal, although I'd point out the many flaws in such a thing, the proposal is Curia business.
    "To implement more frequent tournaments offering more or different rewards" - This is a Gaming Staff decision. Not a Curia decision. We regulate such things for a reason and is Gaming Staff business.
    ^ The difference between these is simple. One is a harmless arguably honorary addition while the other is changing a fundamental approach to how GS runs it's sections and events.

    If a Gaming Staff member filled the role they'd be privy to how we run things, but the rest of the board would not (SnD) and again if decisions or improvements needed to be made that would be a matter for Gaming Staff to decide upon, not the Curia. Now if a Non-GS filled the role he'd be completely out of the loop and (using my 2nd example above) be 'proposing' things without staff agreement; even potentially offering outright harmful ideas through simple ignorance. And if these proposals do NOT in fact encroach upon Staff then I ask, again, what exactly such proposals would entail and why we'd need a whole office built around proposals that the average citizen could make without said offices existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Staff is not where one turns to if they have a complain or a suggestion. The Curia is.
    While on paper the Curia may state "matters of the republic, complaints, grievances, and nominations" the truth of the matter is, if somebody has a complaint about Hotseating then I hear it as Gaming Staff. If there is a grievance I hear it as Gaming Staff. If they went to the Curia they'd find the only people qualified to address their issue(s) were easier to find back home as opposed to about 3 staff and 3 non-staff HS Civs. That number will grow with time but at present there is under half of GS represented within the Curia and a pathetically small percentage of non-staff; hardly suited to make any meaningful decisions that effect the other 99% of the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Site allegedly lacks community spirit -- make proposal for hydrocephalic board of ten Curialists to administrate those ten Curialists -- everyone is united against the proposal -- community spirit strengthened.
    ^ This genuinely made me laugh in what's become a very tiring conversation. Beyond any striking changes/answers I'm simply going to say Opposed until further notice and go make some tea...

  19. #59
    m_1512's Avatar Quomodo vales?
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    10,128
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Alright, this post is not intended to bash the proposal, so I am looking to help by asking some questions. I know this will sound strange, but do bear with me. But first things first.
    I would like to float the idea of a "Board of Directors" approach to management.
    This proposal is actually based on Council–Manager Form of governance. This is very common in small town USA.
    We kind of have this already - they are basically known as Hex and senior staff. Okay, now to the proposal.

    You've listed two issues in the proposal.
    + The Curia currently lacks activity.
    Here you need to look at what you mean by activity. If you are the boss of a company, you can force your employees to move around an empty mall that you own. It will be activity for sure. But will this activity be meaningful? So what are you aiming to achieve in terms of activity here? That needs to be clear - activity to what end.
    + Citizenship efficacy is at a all time low.
    Now we are on to something. Yes, this has been echoed many times in the past. But then again, on namely which areas is the efficacy low on? Yes, tied to the above but still key to understand the issues on more than the surface level.

    Now to the goals.
    + Restore value to Citizenship by raising awareness thus raising efficacy.
    Raising awareness is good, but how will this raise the efficacy? And so we have to check what we're defining the efficacy as.
    + The purpose is to provide a management apparatus that promotes activity and provide the central purpose of the Curia
    Again, activity is good, but what kind of activity will this promote? Also, what is the central purpose of the curia? What are your thoughts on this very concept itself?
    + The propose system creates a management structure to promote citizen action. It centralizes purpose while still allowing an individual citizen to actively participate.
    And again, a management structure is good, but for doing what? What is the chief purpose here that the citizen is unable to achieve?

    And now the positions.
    1. The Curator: The position would be responsible for developing an overall vision and and appointment of certain positions. The Curator will be elected by the board.
    We have this already, plus much more power with the curator.
    2. The"Chief" Praetor: The position would focus on proposals regarding the site and allocating and coordinating the Liaison Officers of the board. The position will be elected by the board.
    Yes, the proposal guy.
    3. The "Chief" Censor: The Position would be responsible for ensuring referral procedure is followed. The Censor will not vote, but may engage in discussion in cases. The Censor will be elected by the board.
    The referral guy.
    4. The "Chief" Historian The Position would focus on cataloging and maintaining historical record of the site and Curia (a question of debate). The position will be appointed by the Curator among board members.
    Pretty sure, we have this already.
    5. The "Chief" Quaestor (Registrar) will responsible for recording all voting, registration of citizens, etc....
    This is the poll guy.
    6. The "Chief" Aedile: The position would oversee and coordinate with the admin all award (e.g. Modding Award). When not coordinating the awards effort, this position will be assigned by the Curator to assist other projects.
    Lastly, the award guy.
    Now if I am to consider points 2,3, and 5, these are duties of the curator and assistants. So what is new here? Further, the position 6 is basically something any citizen can volunteer to help us with. But not many do, and we don't like forcing anyone into it either.

    What I'd recommend is reading up on the history of curia, how it formed, evolved, and what purpose it had served. You'll also there find a reason of how and why it started losing the purpose. And there you may strike upon a solution to actually initiate curia towards rejuvenation.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by m_1512; November 27, 2017 at 11:03 PM.


  20. #60
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
    Patrician Citizen Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    20,306
    Blog Entries
    46

    Default Re: Board of Directors Management

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    A
    What I have stated is that this sites popularity was based on a sense of community. That is absent.
    This is where you are wrong; there is a community spirit and it's very strong, at the least it is so amongst the staffers. If you failed to feel and enjoy this sense of community, then it's just your issue. For the umpteenth time, if anyone is looking for a stronger community spirit and more opportunities to contribute, then joining the staff is the way to go. On the other hand, contributing on the local "communities" is perfectly fine and welcomed, and the purpose of the Curia should be that of looking around for such members and reward them with Citizenship (if they like the idea, ofc) which should be a simple award, without any immaginary "higher standard" or without any claim to "rule" or "decide" anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Just do be clear, I'd sooner vote to dissolve the Curia than allow any curially elected person to interfere with the RPG section in any form.
    I guess this says it all about this proposal, especially if we consider that Ponti is a very long term member. Every single "community" of this site has its own world and doesn't like to get interferences from outside, lest from a group of people which presents itself in a very pompous, elitarist and arrogant way and that knows nothing or very little about the "community" in question; heck, if anything, this is what the Curia should avoid at all, IMO. The staff is here to help such "communities" to grow and we are always open to listen about feasible projects and ideas, while on the other hand we also try to bring more activity and visibility to as much as possible of those communities with our own projects (ie, the Eagle Standard supporting the Modding Awards, the WS supporting the local community of writers, etc). Just consider this; the Modding and Member awards were basically project run by the Curia; the former was abandoned, the latter had become a farce, then one day a fool decided to revive both of them, and now they are under the wing of the staff and of the Hex and are running perfectly well.
    I don't think I need to add anything else; if one cannot see the facts as they are, it's not certainly our fault and it does not make sense to spend more words on that regard.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •