Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Second Bulgarian Tsardom (Complete)

[hessam]

Despot's cavalry (and spearmen) have breastplates, brigandine with plate plackarts, corrazina coats of plate, gauntlets, bevors, plate leg and arm armor, you name it and still they're not heavy enough for you. I imagine you were expecting something like French gendarmes and if that's the case, let me put it this way: it's not gonna happen. and also, just saying "I can assure you" doesn't mean that I'm assured.

[lion8000]

Ok show me your sources about those clothes and hats, because I can show you sources about the clothes of the Bulgarian nobility during that period and actual equipment. The the tier 1 Despot's cavalry just doesn't look elite enough compared to other tier 1 heavy shock cavalrys and by some reason the horses of the Bulgarian nobles were armored during the X century, but not during the XIII century. Some men from tier 2 Despot's cavalry have lamellar armor, which is outdated at that time. Also some of the common tier 2 Bulgarian soldiers have brigandines and coat of plates and the nobles were richer than them.
In the royal palace in Veliko Tarnovo was found a coat of plates, which was dated from the 20s of the 14th century. It was buried, when the palace has been burned in 1393ad. The armor was in a store, obviously because it was already outdated. Obviously the Bulgarians had more up to date equipment.And I find the combination of eastern and western armor weird. Do they actually coincide with each other and how will it affect the mobility. Their legs are also relatively unarmed.

Marko's Monastery in modern day the Macedonia.


And some of them are wearing brown, which is very inappropriate, since the colors of the clothes were very important amongst the Bulgarian nobly. And even the peasants were pretty colorful.

About the tier 3 Despot's cavalry, I wasn't speaking about it and there is no need to be offensive. But as we are speaking about it, in terms of equipment it is more comparable to tier 3 English Mounted Sergeants.

[CrossTd]

So many troops, wow... and they looks amazing and badass af. The bolyars look like they are going hunting or something, is their role more like archery support and chasing routed enemies than shock cav? That's not a bad thing considering there is already a heavy/shock cavalry unit. One can use a lot of strategies with this rooster and the cuman support

[Teutonic]

Just how heavy the Bulgarian heavy cav were? Heavier than the Serbs or Hungarians (in the 14 & 15 centuries)? It's all relative. Oh, by the way, the answer is No, of course.

Also, for the Late era units, in Eastern Europe there was a tendency to shed their armour as time went on (there still were heavily armoured units of course).

In connection with the last point is the issue of the Bolyars horse archers unit. To address complaints of the unit- it is a "what if" unit from a period when the country didn't really exist. It matches similar units of neighbouring nations which undoubtedly heavily influenced each other. I think it is fine from this point of view. The problem could be with the name and description. If it is meant to be "Bolyars' Cavalry"- it's OK (i.e. cavalry retinue serving the Bolyars, NOT cavalry made specifically of bolyars).

I think it's a good idea to "sprinkle" some of the assets of the Bolyar unit in other Late era Bulgarian units to help with continuity- not only neighbouring countries influenced each other, people within the same countries too! It will also help to differentiate the faction, make it more unique.

I am surprised given the fuss that is made of the Bolyars that no one mentioned the "Voivods" infantry unit. "Voivoda" was, as far as I can tell, equivalent to a captain. I would guess in the whole of the Bulgarian lands there would've been a 100 or so at any one time.
So, as with the Bolyars, it would be ridiculous to imagine a unit specifically made up of them. Again, if it is meant to be infantry unit serving specifically Voivods, it's OK. But, IMO, it still doesn't make logical sense and I would prefer it to be renamed. Even something generic like Late Bulgarian Heavy Infantry.

[CrossTd]

Teutonic if you think i have a problem with the rooster you've misunderstood me. It's great and gives a lot of potential for army line up. I am just trying to figure out eventual role for the unit because its been heavily discussed. I don't mind if its cav with archery and support

[finix]

Of course we know what the names mean. Guys it's a f...ing game first.We trying to diversify and make the roster more interesting. Voivods present the veterans in this case. Captains in medieval Bulgaria was called "Stotnik"
If we listen to you, we must use names like Bulgarian Heavy Cavalry, bulgarian heavy infantry, bulgarian heavy archers .....Sooo boring ....come on

[hessam]

The argument of "there weren't that many boyars or that many voivods" is a realistically valid one. but the same can be said of Western European nobles or knights, or Eastern ghulams and kapikulu. so it's not really a breach of the "reality" of this game. rather a compromise to make the mod more interesting and fun.

And I should also address this misconception that the Boyars are light cavalry. in tier 1 they mostly have long coats over chainmail, in tier 2 they have coats of plate, tabard over breastplate, and scale armor, and in tier 3 they're all wearing breastplates. Sure, they're not wearing full plate armor and aren't exactly the heaviest unit around, but they're far from being light cavalry.

[lion8000]

hessam apart from the Bolyars, about which I highly disagree, I still think that you are doing a great job in this mod and I know that you are putting a lot of effort and time in it. Most of the units from the Bulgarian roster are looking awesome. For example the Despot's spearmen are looking so good and especially the tier 3 one's shields are just beautiful, they are probably some of the best looking shields in the entire mod. The tier 3 Bodyguards are great too. Their equipment is great, the only downfall is the wack of heraldry and it is kind of weird that the horses have armor only on their heads. The tier 2 Bodyguards are also looking great, but some of them are wearing brown and they lack heraldry as well, and maybe triangle shields would be more appropriate, but everything else is really good. And adding tier 1, 2 and 3 swordsman is a really good idea, since swords are really common to be found in Bulgaria. The Maceman are also a great unit, their equipment is really good, but some of them have outdated helmets and it doesn't make much sense that they will spend so much money in armor for the limbs and not buying a proper helmet, since the helmet is the most fundamental peace of armor. Their shields are also very outdated for such a unit. Also the maces from the Tarnovo museum would be more appropriate:

Attachment 347714

And since maces were obviously pretty popular in both First and Second Bulgarian empires (as we can see from the Preslav, Sofia and Tarnovo museums (I've posted pictures of them before)) tier 1 and 2 Maceman loud be a really nice addition to the roster. The Bulgarian guard is also a really great unit, it really looks cool. Maybe a tier 3 pike unit would be nice to. And maybe you could bring back the tier 2 Bulgarian heavy infantry, because that unit was looking really good.

Some suggestions about the coat of arms:

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license

Some rings from the Tarnovo museum (again suggestions for the heraldry):



The fraction icon is still brown, which is not right, it should be red. I don't know why they made it brown in the first place. The flags are really good, but again they should be red not brown. The flag of emperor Kaloyan had a cross and the keys of saint Peter. And the roster needs more crosses on their shields, because the Bulgarians were Christians after all. The Double-headed eagle was the dynastic emblem of the Shishman dynasty, so it can be added to the shields of the tier 2 units. And again I really respect your work.

[CrossTd]

The argument of "there weren't that many boyars or that many voivods" is a realistically valid one. but the same can be said of Western European nobles or knights, or Eastern ghulams and kapikulu. so it's not really a breach of the "reality" of this game. rather a compromise to make the mod more interesting and fun.

And I should also address this misconception that the Boyars are light cavalry. in tier 1 they mostly have long coats over chainmail, in tier 2 they have coats of plate, tabard over breastplate, and scale armor, and in tier 3 they're all wearing breastplates. Sure, they're not wearing full plate armor and aren't exactly the heaviest unit around, but they're far from being light cavalry.

So basically a medium cavalry jack-of-all-trades? I like the idea and probably going to use them more than the heavies for that reason

[Teutonic]

CrossTd, I wasn't replying to you specifically, but to general concerns earlier. I also like the idea of the Bolyar cavalry, whatever their name . I argued in a few posts ages ago that Bulgaria needed to have a native missile cavalry of some kind.

finix, I know that you know . But there is no point in debating medieval military ranks, they were very vague. My point still stands- these guys weren't that many and wouldn't have fought together in one unit. I understand your point too, of course. You know these things but want units to be more interesting and are not too pedantic.
I like the unit name examples you gave . But seriously, I was thinking about this. There are these levels 1- Royal; 2- the big, almost independent bolyars; 3- the usual admin units (called a "hora"?). You could name the militia cav, spears, and archers after level 3. I just can't think of a good example. Maybe whatever the name of the official who was in charge of such lands?

Edit: did some research, admin divisions, besides Hora were maybe called oblasts, zemyas, etc. Doesn't matter. The local boss Kefalia (I knew that ) doesn't matter too. The militia cav, spears, and archers could be renamed Provincial instead of Militia. Kefalia/oblast don't sound good in English language based game IMO.

hessam, indeed, this issue is a general one, not just here. I've been seeing this through the years across many TW mods. As I said to fenix, I know that you use these names to make the unit names more interesting. It's just a pet peeve of mine which I solve by assuming that these type of units are made of the retainers of the bolyars, nobles, etc.

As an aside, there were enough knights and in Late era men-at-arms to be reasonable to see them together in units. Plus they really fought together and in their ranks had many similarly armed and trained men who weren't officially knights, which further swelled their numbers.

PS because it gets lost in all these words, the main thing is that the work you've done is great! The late era shields are especially beautiful.

[lion8000]

Teutonic for example the city Samokov was founded in the beginning of the 14th century as a mining settlement. At that time the Bulgarian craftsman were in direct contact with the Saxon miners and in their model were introduced saxon furnaces, forges with blowers and huge hammers (called samokovi) driven by water power. Till the fall of the city under Ottoman control (1372ad.) Samokov was an economical and cultural center. An other example: The Ottoman commander Lala Shahin describes that there was an huge amount forges, black smiths, metal working and trade in the city Sofia. So I think that the Bulgarians were able to make arms and armor by themselves. Also Lala Shahin describes the army in Sofia as large and elite (I doubt that their equipment was outdated). Other advanced mining centers were Kratovo, Novo Burdo, Chiprovtsi and others. So I don't think that the difference between Bulgaria and Hungary was all that big during the 14th century.

Edit: And as I said in one of my previous posts:" In the royal palace in Veliko Tarnovo was found a coat of plates, which was dated from the 20s of the 14th century. It was buried, when the palace has been burned in 1393ad. The armor was in a store, obviously because it was already outdated. Obviously the Bulgarians had more up to date equipment."

In terms of the Bolyars the so called "irreverent" text from the X century describes the Bulgarian nobles as heavily armed (including the horses) and that they used long spears. Obviously they used shock tactics and there are even examples where the Bulgarians defeated the Byzantines by using heavy cavalry. But by some reason in the XIII century they dropped most of their armor and put on long coats over chain mail (about which isn't even a single mention in the sources) and put on those hats (which again doesn't appear in the sources) and as I said before there are actual manuscripts and chronicles that show actual Bolyars and by some reason dropped the long spears and became house archers, then why did the Bulgarians used Cumans all that much? And the tier 2 Bolyars put on those tabards, about which again there are no evidences and the tier 3 Bolyars are basically the same thing. The Bolyars units are just pure fiction, based on nothing.

[Teutonic]

Oops, don't know what happened here, turned into a double post somehow.

Sorry, it can be deleted.

[Teutonic]

lion8000, I also think that Bulgarians used pretty heavy armour. I am sure that the depictions of later 14 century Bulgarian soldiers fighting Ottomans looking like 13 century Kievan Rus soldiers fighting Mongols are outdated, wrong, and most likely politically motivated. They would've no doubt imported armour from the west and made their own too.
But I think it is reasonable to assume that their mixture of Western and Eastern influences due to geography and politics would've meant that they were less heavily armoured than their neighbours to the West. Plus it is a question of economics. Later 14 century and early 15th, Bulgarian economy was in a bad shape. On the other hand, despite the often desperate situation and ravages by the Ottomans, as long as the Serbs held Novo Bardo they would've had plenty of cash to support decent and very heavy armies.

To sum up, in my opinion, hessam has found a good balance for the High and Late era Bulgarian roster. It is not easy, he would've had to look at the rosters of ERE, Serbia, and Wallachia and make it look natural with them too. And I think he did, or got lucky

[Cometopuli]

in bulgarian hora хора means people lol

[lion8000]

Teutonic I mostly agree with you and hessam did a really great job with most of the tier 2 units. I still don't think that the eastern influence was very strong during the 14th century. And I think that the Bulgarian nobles were up to date with the western nobles. An example for that is the pig face basinet from the Tarnovo museum:

Pig face bascinet from the late 14th century from the museum in Tarnovo


They were used during the late 14th century-early 15 century and it is a really big luck that it was found, because after the ottomans there aren't much peaces of equipment and sources left in Bulgaria.

Edit: The Bulgarians probably had a lot of money till the fall of Tarnovo in 1393ad. After that and the seize of the Vidin empire during the period 1397ad.-1422ad. is subject to debate amongst the historians, so I can't speak about its financial condition.

About the Bolyars: I will use the Manasses chronicle (1335-1345ad.) again to prove my point. Even if the chronicle is showing much older events, it is showing equipment from the era when it was written. The chronicle is from the first half of the 14th century and it seems that the tier 2 units in this mod are using equipment from the late 14th century-early 15th century, so the equipment showed in the chronicle is outdated for the tier 2 Bulgarian roster. The warriors depicted in the chronicle are heavily armored. Their heads, hands and their entire legs are covered in armor. And it looks like they are wearing bascinets without visors, actually such a bascinet did survived till today:

Bascinet found near Kasanlak from the beginning/middle of the 14th century


And they are armed with spears and they carry red flags:

.

There is only one guy who doesn't wear armor and wears a furry hat, but since he is the only one who looks like this and he is clearly standing out from the rest I suppose that he is a mercenary.Both Michael III Shishman and Ivan Alexander had a 3,000-strong Mongol cavalry detachment in their armies. In the 1350s, Emperor Ivan Alexander even hired Ottoman bands, as did the Byzantine Emperor.

And why weren't the flashy dressed Bolyars heavy horse archers with their flashy furry hats depicted in the chronicle? Maybe because they never existed.

[keksimir]

This looks awesome! I like the voivods especially. Will you be adding a voivods unit to the Serbs as well? It would be somewhat appropriate i guess. Many of these units would work in a Serbian roster as well, particularly the despots...
Can we hope for a Serbian revamp or am i just holding my breath?

[Teutonic]

lion8000, maybe they all were completely up to date and willing (which is not a given) to use the best Western armour available. It is impossible to say for sure because so much archaeology and documents have been lost.
From what I can see hessam has given the Bulgarian units in Tier 2 and 3 very strong Western character. And there are some very heavily armoured units both horse and foot. I don't think there is need to increase the armour across the roster.

The situation of the Bulgarian economy in the 14 century changed from being very good until aprox 1360s to be very poor after. It suffered from the Ottoman invasions, obviously, directly and indirectly. Also from the conflict between Venice and Genoa. Also also from the fact that the biggest export and source of cash was grain- when Varna, the country's main seaport, seceded the grain trade was .

As for the bolyars, it is an "what if" unit, probably. There may have been Bulgarians like this fighting for whoever was fighting the Turks anytime in the 15 century, but whatever the case it is Late period unit when the faction didn't exist in real history. There are many such units for various factions in this mod for which the modders can only speculate about. I assume hessam has done similar to what the other modders have done in the conception of such units. Given what kind of units the Serbs and Wallachians had in the 15 century it would make sense that the Bulgarians would have similar ones too. I wouldn't have been surprised to see even more such like the Bolyars and Hussars in the Bulgarian roster.

Just wondering, do you think your opinion of the Bolyar cavalry unit would have changed if it was called something different which did not suggest an elite status? I am asking because you haven't yet mentioned the hussars.

[lion8000]

Teutonic I think that there was a misunderstanding. I said that hessam did a really good job with most of the Bulgarian tier 2 and tier 3 units and that they look really nice. I think that the hussars a logical unit for the tier 3 roster, Hungary was using them to. Now about the Bolyars, the sources show them as heavily armored, with an appearance more like western knights. As for the tier 3 Bolyars, I think that they would be similar to the Hungarian nobles. My opinion is based on the close relationships between the Vidin empire and Hungary in the early 15th century and on prince Fruzhin (who was very close to the Hungarian king) and the Bulgarian rebels (the portrait of Fruzhin in Wikipedia is from the late 19th century, so this portrait isn't a very good source). And as I said before the equipment of the tier 3 Bodyguard is very good.

Edit: About the economy of Bulgaria-an example, which I said before: The Ottoman commander Lala Shahin describes that there was an huge amount forges, black smiths, metal working and trade in the city Sofia. Also Lala Shahin describes the army in Sofia as large and elite. Sofia was conquered in 1385ad. by Lala Shahin.

[Teutonic]

Well, in my head the Bolyars cavalry is made up of the retainers of the Bulgarian nobility (bolyars) . The actual bolyars are some of the officers and/or in the heavy cavalry like the Bodyguard or Despot's cav... So our opinions on this appear rather close.

As for the economy, it's relative too. The fact that Bulgaria's economy at the time of its demise wasn't in a good shape doesn't mean that it was utterly impoverished place without any prosperous towns whatsoever. Turnovo, Sofia, Vidin, Nikopol, Cherven, Drustur, Varna, etc. might have been OK by Balkan standards. Which helps to explain why hessam made such formidable units for the roster. In my subjective opinion

Re Lala Shahin, even if we take his word for granted (a big if), it still matches the roster. You know, it is possible that he exaggerated the strength of the opposition- it is not unusual. The defenders might not have been the usual garrison but an actual army sent to face Lala Shahin but being heavily outnumbered retreated into the city.

Anyway, the opinion which really matters is that of hessam and it looks like this is the roster we have. I am happy with it, even if I have to re-interpret few things in my head . I am used to it... The Balkan factions now look really good. The Serbs (a couple of Late era) and Byzies (late crossbows, Peloponesos units?) may miss a few units and maybe Bulgarians could get middling melee infantry, but it looks pretty great. Only the Albanians remain very under represented. And Bosnia.

[Knight2708]

First of I want to congratulate you on how absolutely beautiful these unis are. The textures, the new assets, the shields, the heraldry, the colors, the mix of different styles, cultures and influences, it all combines to form a truly amazing roster.

One thing I do want to call attention to however, is that some spears, especially those of the tier 3 Despot's Spearmen, are way too long to be used effectively in conjunction with a pavise or other large shield.

Now when it comes to the discussion about heavy cavalry, the lack of a lance-armed heavy shock cavalry unit does seem a bit strange. One possible idea would be to give the Despot's cavalry lances instead of spears to turn them from a unit resembling Sergeants more into a unit resembling knights. This way Bulgaria could have a proper shock cavalry unit without any massive changes to the current roster being made.

The argument of "there weren't that many boyars or that many voivods" is a realistically valid one. but the same can be said of Western European nobles or knights, or Eastern ghulams and kapikulu. so it's not really a breach of the "reality" of this game. rather a compromise to make the mod more interesting and fun.

This seems like a weird comparison to me. From what I understand Voivodes and Bolyars made up the highest ranks of the Bulgarian nobility, comparable to the magnates, seigneurs, earls and dukes of Western Europe, which would make them very different from knights. While both groups were nobles, knights were much more numerous and comprised a significant portion and the core component of western armies, Knights were soldiers (miles), while the high nobles were the leaders of armies, their total numbers measured in the hundreds or even dozens, and not thousands like knights. Now I don't know whether knights or similar existed in Bulgaria, but I would assume that there was some sort of warrior elite in medieval Bulgaria that was not only comprised of the highest ranking nobles. Alternatively, naming them something like Bolyar's/Voivode's retinue/retainers (or using the Bulgarian word for retinue/retainers), as has already been suggested, would also make more sense imho.