What is the Symposium, to you?

[Frunk]

Sure let's hasten the demise of the site. We destroyed the community. Rather than build it back, we should remove all aspects of it so that it can never revive the site. We are now down to just 9 admin in which one of them has not even logged on to the site since May. I would not be surprise by this time next year we will be looking at 6 or less.

Firstly, you ignored my post.

Secondly, your reply to Flinn is yet another straw man argument. You've repeatedly failed to draw any connection whatsoever between the doom you expound that the site is facing/has already faced, and how altering the dead Symposium will somehow hasten that.

You've failed to provide any real suggestions specifically as to a) what the Symposium is for, and b) how it can be "built back up". The former is quite possibly the simplest question I can ask, and which I have asked ad nauseam for 9 months. In that time yourself, Halie, and anybody else, have failed to answer it directly.

Instead, you accuse those of us who want to do something about it of ignoring the solution you have repeated (essentially, "just use the Symposium") without telling us what we should actually post there (harking back, neatly, to "what is the Symposium for?").

EDIT: Let me outline the options as I see them:

1. A Citizen-only general discussion forum - which most Citizens choose not to use.

2. A place which holds site history - or, in other words, an archive. Why do we have/need an index-level archive? Why not make it a sub-forum of the CVRIA? I even think it should be left open for posting and rebranded for that purpose, but the general discussion option can also remain "just in case". This would remove the need for TWC's Living History Forum, which could be merged as part of the rebranding and reorganisation.

3. "Just in case" - if this is genuinely what some people think we need it for, that's fine, but it does not justify the Symp being index level. The Symp could be a sub-forum and equally as available "just in case". Also, See 1 and 2.

4. A place for debates - already refuted here.

If I have somehow overlooked something, please, - I ask for the umpteenth time - please direct me to it. Because I do intend to submit a proposal soon and I'd hate to waste my and everybody else's time if there is some use for the Symposium, and some justification for its continued index-level location, which I have somehow missed.

[PikeStance]

1. Sounds like a very simplistic explanation to me

Failure does not have to be complex.

Mixing up cause and effect will not get us anywhere. As I said in an earlier discussion about this, turning the sails is not going to change the direction of the wind.

Sometimes you are a train and you realize you are heading in the wrong direction. It isn't wise to continue on that line.

Firstly, you ignored my post.

I respond to whatever I feel is a valid argument or a salient point.

Secondly, your reply to Flinn is yet another straw man argument. You've repeatedly failed to draw any connection whatsoever between the doom you expound that the site is facing/has already faced, and how altering the dead Symposium will somehow hasten that.

Since I have been a member of this site I have seen the Citizenship devolved to virtually nothing and this site decline to near oblivion. The site has no soul. It is just another forum now. This is an undeniable fact as this has been repeated by every long time member of this site.

You've failed to provide any real suggestions specifically as to a) what the Symposium is for, and b) how it can be "built back up". The former is quite possibly the simplest question I can ask, and which I have asked ad nauseam for 9 months. In that time yourself, Halie, and anybody else, have failed to answer it directly. ....
If I have somehow overlooked something, please, - I ask for the umpteenth time - please direct me to it. Because I do intend to submit a proposal soon and I'd hate to waste my and everybody else's time if there is some use for the Symposium, and some justification for its continued index-level location, which I have somehow missed.

I directed you to the post that explains the purpose of the forum. You choosing to ignore it is not my problem.
Personally, you wasting your time creating this thread and the previous proposal. Your "change" changes nothing about the forum.
the problem here is you think this forum is "super forum." This really explain why you write repeatedly that I have no specific ideas for the site. By consequence of your belief, no change is necessary. The sad thing is, this site is now racing to its doom. In 2011 there was at least two dozen people active in the Curia alone. Near the end of the CdeC, it was barely at two dozen. After the fall of the CdeC, it dropped to about a dozen or so active members. In the past two years it is now closer to about half dozen active users. Citizenship has taken a similar nosedive. Most old timers remarked what they love about TWC was the community. No one talks about the community except in a negative sense. How anyone an deny this is beyond me. Claiming that this site is victim of competition is not an excuse to not do something. I'll continue wait, but I am getting concern that we have passed the tipping point. We have wasting the past three years. Removing the symposium is just another symptom of the demise of this site. What is the next step? The Curia itself? After all, no citizenship applications in quite some time. Large awards has mostly awarded recent admin or active Curists.

I linked this video about three years ago.

[Frunk]

I respond to whatever I feel is a valid argument or a salient point.

Thanks; I'll do the same.

[Commissar Caligula_]

You two are so catty lols

[Lifthrasir]

Failure does not have to be complex.

True. But if you don't consider all possible explanations, then yours has a lot of probabilities to be wrong.

Sometimes you are a train and you realize you are heading in the wrong direction. It isn't wise to continue on that line.

All roads lead to Rome. It's just a matter of time

I respond to whatever I feel is a valid argument or a salient point.

I've noticed that

Since I have been a member of this site I have seen the Citizenship devolved to virtually nothing and this site decline to near oblivion. The site has no soul. It is just another forum now. This is an undeniable fact as this has been repeated by every long time member of this site.

I directed you to the post that explains the purpose of the forum. You choosing to ignore it is not my problem.
Personally, you wasting your time creating this thread and the previous proposal. Your "change" changes nothing about the forum.
the problem here is you think this forum is "super forum." This really explain why you write repeatedly that I have no specific ideas for the site. By consequence of your belief, no change is necessary. The sad thing is, this site is now racing to its doom. In 2011 there was at least two dozen people active in the Curia alone. Near the end of the CdeC, it was barely at two dozen. After the fall of the CdeC, it dropped to about a dozen or so active members. In the past two years it is now closer to about half dozen active users. Citizenship has taken a similar nosedive. Most old timers remarked what they love about TWC was the community. No one talks about the community except in a negative sense. How anyone an deny this is beyond me. Claiming that this site is victim of competition is not an excuse to not do something. I'll continue wait, but I am getting concern that we have passed the tipping point. We have wasting the past three years. Removing the symposium is just another symptom of the demise of this site. What is the next step? The Curia itself? After all, no citizenship applications in quite some time. Large awards has mostly awarded recent admin or active Curists.

I linked this video about three years ago.

See, that my point: you're repeating again the same story about "the good old times"

@ Caligula, why don't you express your opinion? I mean, you're quite new as a Citizen and it would be interesting to get your input

@ Frunk, it may be time to throw your proposal

[Frunk]

I'll aim for the end of the week.

[Commissar Caligula_]

@ Caligula, why don't you express your opinion? I mean, you're quite new as a Citizen and it would be interesting to get your input

Eh I don't care much either way. The Symposium is barely used, but it has some semi-interesting old threads in it. I figure just merge it with the Curia, and make the vibe a bit more relaxed in the Curia so people can make Symposium-type threads eg music, booze and elite posting.

[Frunk]

That's exactly what the previous proposal was, except rather than merging, the Symp became a locked sub-forum so continuity of threads was preserved. Symp-style threads could then be moved or restarted here.

[PikeStance]

You two are so catty lols

It was not my intention to be catty. However, when someone constantly repeats he doesn't know the purpose of something is and you keep directing this person to the post that explains it, then responding just becomes redundant.

True. But if you don't consider all possible explanations, then yours has a lot of probabilities to be wrong.

Why are you assuming I haven't consider all possibilities? You may not be aware of this but I initially voted for what would become "the devolving of citizenship." As the data came in I noticed that things were getting worse not better.

See, that my point: you're repeating again the same story about "the good old times"

So, it has come to this... you will cherry pick my statement for a cheap joke? (however, this is only true if you make a huge leap in inference). Most of my ideas; the hub, center of content on the web, rather than primarily being the creator of content, Modding support, etc.... Restoring citizenship or the Curia has a meaningful place for change and decision making, rather than it being "just an award" is an old concept, but an unavoidable one if you want people to care.
The rise of TWC was based on community and community action. The fall of the site is the lack there of. When people lost interest in the Curia, then the community appeal was lost.
The reaction thus far is continuation of the sort of things that have resulted in the lost of the community. The forum lose activity, then the response is contraction which will only give an illusion of "some" activity.

[Lifthrasir]

^^ You're disgressing here. I'm not talking about your past, present and even future proposals for the site here. I'm just pointing that your will to keep the Citizenry in its current elitist form is outdated and not appealing at all for the present days members. The fact of archiving the Symp. or moving it into the Curia main forum won't contribute in any way to the fall of the site. On contrary and as pointed already by several members in this thread, mixing Citizens and common members (in other forums) won't hurt and may contribute for more patronization as well. That fact is not decreasing the value of the Citizenry in any case. If you can not accept it, fair enough. No point to bring the discussion on other topics.

@ Caligula, thanks for sharing your opinion
There was no malicious intend behind my question. I'd just like to hear more opinions from "new" Citizens

[PikeStance]

^^ You're disgressing here. I'm not talking about your past, present and even future proposals for the site here. I'm just pointing that your will to keep the Citizenry in its current elitist form is outdated and not appealing at all for the present days members. The fact of archiving the Symp. or moving it into the Curia main forum won't contribute in any way to the fall of the site. On contrary and as pointed already by several members in this thread, mixing Citizens and common members (in other forums) won't hurt and may contribute for more patronization as well. That fact is not decreasing the value of the Citizenry in any case. If you can not accept it, fair enough. No point to bring the discussion on other topics.

I am not digressing; it is the very point I have been making!
If citizenship is not a status then it isn't anything to attain. Citizenship isn't anything to be desired anymore. It is something people are happy to be given. Citizens no longer patronize because citizenship has brought them very little. It is just a badge.
The notion of having an open forum would somehow promote citizenship is also false. I learned about citizenship by noticing the badges while posting in the ETW forum. I didn't even knew the Curia existed until I read up on it. I posted something about desiring citizenship and I was chastise for it. Later, I was approach by someone and it wasn't for anything I had posted relating to the Curia. In fact, he had no knowledge of my previous post. It was a different time then. People still cared about citizenship. It had a status, though a declining one. So, citizens mixed with non-citizens on every forum except in the Capital. A distinction that non-citizens couldn't care about. They use to, but not anymore. There just anything special about citizenship anymore. It is just a meaningless badge. Let's run it down shall we;
Proposals> I have been told, why and I posting it in the Curia, just post it in Q&A. Moreover, proposals often not implemented. It used to be a given. In fact, Hex used to comment in the discussion, so by the time it passed it would be implemented. That has changed since I have been a member.
Status> there isn't one for the the above reason. there is no point in being a citizen when your say have so little meaning.
Patronizing> No one actually cares. Participation is minimal even with anyone being able to comment. Most, if you are lucky, just chime in with support. In some cases, it is just a yes/no vote. There is little honor or meaning behind patronizing. You are not recognizing someone beyond what they did. There is no longer a status associated with it. being a patron has lost its charm and meaning.
There was a time when all of these things were true. The forum was active and there was a strong sense of a community. That is gone and by the sound of it, won't be coming back anytime soon.
What does this have to do with Symposium. It is symptomatic. The symposium usefulness and utility is entirely contingent on the existence of a community. This is something this site desperately needs. Contracting the Curia any further and all hope of this site will be lost. We should be finding ways to build the community not contract. In other words, sort of restoring the Curia to a more direct role in the site, the best way to promote the site is by restoring the elite status of citizenship and then promoting the Symposium has a place where citizens can engage in more productive debate etc.... But too many who do not believe we are an Eve of Destruction, thus the symposium is just a forum rarely used.

DISCLAIMER: I am using poetic license.

[Frunk]

It was not my intention to be catty. However, when someone constantly repeats he doesn't know the purpose of something is and you keep directing this person to the post that explains it, then responding just becomes redundant.

You directed me to an 11 year old thread about debates. I debunked you, and you chose to ignore me.

What does this have to do with Symposium. It is symptomatic. The symposium usefulness and utility is entirely contingent on the existence of a community. This is something this site desperately needs. Contracting the Curia any further and all hope of this site will be lost. We should be finding ways to build the community not contract. In other words, sort of restoring the Curia to a more direct role in the site, the best way to promote the site is by restoring the elite status of citizenship and then promoting the Symposium has a place where citizens can engage in more productive debate etc.... But too many who do not believe we are an Eve of Destruction, thus the symposium is just a forum rarely used.

DISCLAIMER: I am using poetic license.

At last, some semblance of substance related to the topic at hand.

If you see that as a solution, sure; go ahead and promote the Symposium. My forthcoming proposal actually won't seek to remove it. It will seek to move it off the index and amalgamate it with TWC's Living History Forum. Thus, its primary function would be about site and Curial history, but there would be nothing stopping Citizens using it for debates and informal discussions.

[PikeStance]

You directed me to an 11 year old thread about debates. I debunked you, and you chose to ignore me.

That 11 year old thread answered your question about the purpose. You didn't debunk the purpose of the forum at all. You just pointed out that it was used for sometime. That much we do know. I am not sure why you are being argumentative. You asked the purpose of the forum. I answered it by linking the thread that describes the purpose. You then point out it was not used that way. Ok, but that doesn't change the purpose. So what in god's name is being debunk here?

At last, some semblance of substance related to the topic at hand.

If you see that as a solution, sure; go ahead and promote the Symposium. My forthcoming proposal actually won't seek to remove it. It will seek to move it off the index and amalgamate it with TWC's Living History Forum. Thus, its primary function would be about site and Curial history, but there would be nothing stopping Citizens using it for debates and informal discussions.

1. I have been writing this for the past three years to various degree. I said nothing new at all.
2. Why bother moving it at all? Is moving the Symposium going to make the Curia look busy? Is the Curia going to look less like a white elephant?

Broken record but.... we should be promoting community not contracting. Then again, it is self- evident that no one cares anyway.

[Lifthrasir]

Why bother keeping it in its current location then?
Why not gather everything related to the Curia into an unique place? Even if you think that Citizenry must be elitist to attract more members (which I doubt), explain how the fact to move it will make it less "valuable"? It doesn't make sens to me

[♔atthias♔]

It was not my intention to be catty. However, when someone constantly repeats he doesn't know the purpose of something is and you keep directing this person to the post that explains it, then responding just becomes redundant.


Why are you assuming I haven't consider all possibilities? You may not be aware of this but I initially voted for what would become "the devolving of citizenship." As the data came in I noticed that things were getting worse not better.




So, it has come to this... you will cherry pick my statement for a cheap joke? (however, this is only true if you make a huge leap in inference). Most of my ideas; the hub, center of content on the web, rather than primarily being the creator of content, Modding support, etc.... Restoring citizenship or the Curia has a meaningful place for change and decision making, rather than it being "just an award" is an old concept, but an unavoidable one if you want people to care.
The rise of TWC was based on community and community action. The fall of the site is the lack there of. When people lost interest in the Curia, then the community appeal was lost.
The reaction thus far is continuation of the sort of things that have resulted in the lost of the community. The forum lose activity, then the response is contraction which will only give an illusion of "some" activity.

re 1
I find it ironic that this is exactly what is happening with you now
we have pointed it out several times and you keep going on about already debunked points

so I will do what you suggested thanks for the advice pike

[PikeStance]

Why bother keeping it in its current location then?
Why not gather everything related to the Curia into an unique place? Even if you think that Citizenry must be elitist to attract more members (which I doubt), explain how the fact to move it will make it less "valuable"? It doesn't make sens to me

Is there something more I need to say?
As I said; this is a long line of errors. As the site declines it will become more and more clear. The question is, did we reach the tipping point?

re 1
I find it ironic that this is exactly what is happening with you now
we have pointed it out several times and you keep going on about already debunked points

so I will do what you suggested thanks for the advice pike

What's debunk???? The decline of the site? That's obvious.
You cannot claim my suggestion I have made have been debunk?
I really wish people would take my advise sooner rather than later.

[Frunk]

That 11 year old thread answered your question about the purpose. You didn't debunk the purpose of the forum at all. You just pointed out that it was used for sometime. That much we do know. I am not sure why you are being argumentative. You asked the purpose of the forum. I answered it by linking the thread that describes the purpose. You then point out it was not used that way. Ok, but that doesn't change the purpose. So what in god's name is being debunk here?

If something is not used for its intended purpose, that makes it redundant, does it not?

And before you say "Ah, but it is used for other things as well!", then why not point those other things out, instead of just posting a link about one thing?

My question "what purpose does the Symposium serve?" is actually "what purpose does the Symposium currently serve?". We are all well aware of what it used to do.

1. I have been writing this for the past three years to various degree. I said nothing new at all.
2. Why bother moving it at all? Is moving the Symposium going to make the Curia look busy? Is the Curia going to look less like a white elephant?

Broken record but.... we should be promoting community not contracting. Then again, it is self- evident that no one cares anyway.

I don't share your concerns about the Curia or even the wider site, but you are welcome to continue to elaborate on them and/or make a proposal, if you like.

[Lifthrasir]

I really wish people would take my advise sooner rather than later.

[PikeStance]

If something is not used for its intended purpose, that makes it redundant, does it not?

And before you say "Ah, but it is used for other things as well!", then why not point those other things out, instead of just posting a link about one thing?

My question "what purpose does the Symposium serve?" is actually "what purpose does the Symposium currently serve?". We are all well aware of what it used to do.

No "redundant" would not be the correct term.
I posted a link because you claimed you did not know its purpose. The link to the thread states the purpose of the forum. Did you really expect me to re-write something off of what was stated in that post?
The symposium serves the exact same purpose has the day it was created. The fact that it has not been fully utilized doesn't change that purpose.

[I hope its third time a charm.

I don't share your concerns about the Curia or even the wider site, but you are welcome to continue to elaborate on them and/or make a proposal, if you like.

Good, this means the end of your disingenuous and argumentative statements will come to an end.

I am a prophet!! Here I thought I was Casandra! LOL REPENT REPENT YOU HEATHENS!
Oh wait, the Israelites didn't pay them any attention

[StealthFox]

To preface my statement, I'm not saying we should suddenly go back to being more elitist, in fact I argued for disbanding CdeC way back when and have in the past argued for it being more of an award and not a rank.

For better or for worse, I do believe that chipping away at the "eliteness" of citizenship has had a role to play in the decreased activity here. Over the years, citizenship has trended from a status rank to an award, which has partially resulted in less of a community, and the loss of privileges/exclusivity means less appeal to current and non-citizens to participate. For many users here, having a chance to see and post in a nonpublic form has its appeal. If the Curia had an elected Hex seat many would want it for the status and for a chance to see what gets discussed in those closed chambers. I think that was a large of the the CdeCs appeal. Admittedly, there would be (and was with Cdec), some who simply wanted to serve and help TWC be the best Total War site it can be. But you'd also get plenty of people who had no business ever coming close to sitting on Hex. Having something liked that though would certainly generate a lot of traffic as the hopefuls tried to make themselves known, it'd draw in people who wouldn't normally post here, and of course all the debates that would go along with such a thing. It's probably better that we don't have an elite Curia Hex seat, but in not having one you're losing a lot of activity and traffic. The same with CdeC and all the other trappings that used to be here. Of course, this isn't exactly comparable to what we're talking about in relation to the Symposium, but I think the analogy still stands.

Having said all that, I don't know how to make the Symposium more active, but I don't think it needs to be deleted, or closed and archived. As I said last time this came up, I'm fine moving it off the index and made a subforum though.