The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

[izzi]

Exactly. We can easily see evolution of the engine from Empire to Warhammer 2. Plus as we are getting into more and more complex games, the base engine is by definition also more and more complex. So new engine means just a long bug hunting time period, basically another long thorny road from version 1 to something at least on par with current engine state...



Steph can confirm there is a lot activity for example in C&C Discord, that is basically lair for many prominent Warhammer mods, they are especially good with scripting. Really good stuff there, not just reskins...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1576253740
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1569393500
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1542949583
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1577217111

Another problem is probably number of TW titles that are now playable. Med2/Rome still has some major projects, Rome has DeI, Attila has Ancient Empires, Shogun 2 + ToB are probably without major overhauls (and yes,as Izzi pointed out,there are shogun 2 mods, but not just so many and no so many active projects..) but Wh and especially Wh2 got a lot of modders but they are just not here. Radious, SFO and others got Patreon/Discord for easy promotion. What can TWC offers to those groups with Discord and Patreon? They have direct access to their fans, they have everything under their own control..

Yes correct, i have patreon and discord now and it's just much easier to communicate (especially if it's urgent). All my other info + pics an whatsoever are on my own forum. I use TWC just as promotion (like links to discord or my forum). My opinion is maybe TWC can become strong in reviewing/previewing mods/upcoming mods/modders by especially youtube for example. Modders do not have time for that. They have a channel, but it's not really in use any more.

This used to be the place in 2010-11 where I got mods from. I don’t understand how when Shogun 2 came with the workshop, it was mostly simple mods. I say the flop release of Rome 2 really hindered the community. And CA’s modding tools aren’t the greatest but they are workable. TWC was a bustling place back in ETW and NTW days. I wonder if anyone remembers the org? They have done a good job of staying alive. But now the steam workshop has more mods than you ever would see. I mean RII the most panned game ever has about 1000 mods. Way more than Shogun 2 has.

So what really happened? NTW and ETW had no workshops. Rome 2, Shogun, Warhammer and Attila have. Out of those games, the Rome 2 workshop and the Warhammer workshop is popular, Shogun being strong.

Please feel free free to correct me if I get anything wrong.

Yeah, no idea why there is a steamworkshop for Shogun2. There is a file limitation of a 100mb per file. So if i want to add my own new mod to steamworkshop, than i already need more than 50 files of the mod. A bit ridiculous.

[PikeStance]

I totally agree with you. But players/modders that post on steam are most small tweaks/units re-skin/etc...They are not big overhauls. Because with big overhauls you need a community, as here on TWC. I am planning myself to make a library of tutorials and post them on my forum and TWC to help out the Shogun 2 modding community. I discovered a lot of new things, and that knowledge can't be lost. I try to help out others that want to mod Shogun 2 games. But for most of them is difficult where to start. So i hope with this that may give them a push to start modding. And see more mods on Shogun 2. Because now it's pretty sad to see. I also hope, now the modding staf has been implemented, that you see more PR for small/big/upcoming mods on for example on Youtube.

Those little guys are not part of any community, as a site, we should promote TWC has a great place to be.

Exactly. We can easily see evolution of the engine from Empire to Warhammer 2. Plus as we are getting into more and more complex games, the base engine is by definition also more and more complex. So new engine means just a long bug hunting time period, basically another long thorny road from version 1 to something at least on par with current engine state...

All the games since ETW utilized the TW3 engine. All games since ETW, utilizes the warscape engine. The only difference starting with WH is 64 bit instead of 32. The only "complexity" is the increasing number of variables to mod, but makes it easier to mod, not more difficult.

Steph can confirm there is a lot activity for example in C&C Discord, that is basically lair for many prominent Warhammer mods, they are especially good with scripting. Really good stuff there, not just reskins...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1576253740
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1569393500
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1542949583
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1577217111

Another problem is probably number of TW titles that are now playable. Med2/Rome still has some major projects, Rome has DeI, Attila has Ancient Empires, Shogun 2 + ToB are probably without major overhauls (and yes,as Izzi pointed out,there are shogun 2 mods, but not just so many and no so many active projects..) but Wh and especially Wh2 got a lot of modders but they are just not here. Radious, SFO and others got Patreon/Discord for easy promotion. What can TWC offers to those groups with Discord and Patreon? They have direct access to their fans, they have everything under their own control..

Yeah, chats haves made a roaring comeback, but like before, the limited capabilities will prove itself incapable of doing the things that allowed forums to be the preferred medium of communities. (The big difference between then and now is back then you could not voice chat, but no one seems to voice chat anyway).

As far as patreon is a concern; I have to wonder how long will that last. I suppose people have money to burn. Patreon will never be a place for resources and modders to gather and share ideas.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

Yeah, chats haves made a roaring comeback, but like before, the limited capabilities will prove itself incapable of doing the things that allowed forums to be the preferred medium of communities. (The big difference between then and now is back then you could not voice chat, but no one seems to voice chat anyway).

This strikes me as a form of complacency ("bah, it's nothing, everyone is gonna go back to forums soon anyways!") that I caution very strongly against.

Chats of old were poorly responsive, extremely limited, often very temporary, inflexible, and not very innovative.

To focus on one platform in particular, chats now have extremely long memories, a dynamic search feature, many easily accessible splits of channels, moderation controls, pins, permissions, image layout, primitive but functional code bits, live access of a social media nature (do you think facebook users are going to go straight back to email?...) record interconnection and all on a reliable level for free. Do not underestimate them on grounds of perceived limitations that fade like water with simple use of basic modern features such as searches, pins, and trivial difficulty server joining including the new account registration process that I know has some people warded away from TWC.

[PikeStance]

This strikes me as a form of complacency ("bah, it's nothing, everyone is gonna go back to forums soon anyways!") that I caution very strongly against.

Chats of old were poorly responsive, extremely limited, often very temporary, inflexible, and not very innovative.

To focus on one platform in particular, chats now have extremely long memories, a dynamic search feature, many easily accessible splits of channels, moderation controls, pins, permissions, image layout, primitive but functional code bits, live access of a social media nature (do you think facebook users are going to go straight back to email?...) record interconnection and all on a reliable level for free. Do not underestimate them on grounds of perceived limitations that fade like water with simple use of basic modern features such as searches, pins, and trivial difficulty server joining including the new account registration process that I know has some people warded away from TWC.

I don't have a memory of chats being inflexible compared to what I see now. Every time there was an upgrade, which was often, they added new features. Perhaps you are thinking of IRCs When chats were in the heyday, IRCs were already dinosaurs. They were also moderators. There were report features and they didn't take long to clear a room if things got crazy.

The school I work at in China is a perfect example of the limitations of chats. They use WeChat to communicate everything. Other schools use a combination of email and an intranet that has forum type features. The current school sends out a repeated text of files that need to be sent over and over again. They rarely put needed documents in one central location because it is "easier" to send them in chat. People ask for stuff all the time. I get 5 times more message a day than I ever receive in emails. The other day I receive the same file 4 times since I teach both MYP and DP, I got it there once, the general school's WeChat group and one other group I have no idea what it is used for, but people send stuff all the time. Most schools have started using intranet forums to cut down on the number of emails and communication is ten times better. This is absolutely insane. The Chinese are nuts about WeChat.

Eventually, people will figure out what chat is good for.

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

I don't have a memory of chats being inflexible compared to what I see now. Every time there was an upgrade, which was often, they added new features. Perhaps you are thinking of IRCs When chats were in the heyday, IRCs were already dinosaurs. They were also moderators. There were report features and they didn't take long to clear a room if things got crazy.

The school I work at in China is a perfect example of the limitations of chats. They use WeChat to communicate everything. Other schools use a combination of email and an intranet that has forum type features. The current school sends out a repeated text of files that need to be sent over and over again. They rarely put needed documents in one central location because it is "easier" to send them in chat. People ask for stuff all the time. I get 5 times more message a day than I ever receive in emails. The other day I receive the same file 4 times since I teach both MYP and DP, I got it there once, the general school's WeChat group and one other group I have no idea what it is used for, but people send stuff all the time. Most schools have started using intranet forums to cut down on the number of emails and communication is ten times better. This is absolutely insane. The Chinese are nuts about WeChat.

Eventually, people will figure out what chat is good for.

The limitations of some chats cannot be compared to the limitations of a chat where the problem you describe is solved with one channel, one pin, and one look at permissions. I have little interest or care in WeChat, and instead focus on what platforms are most relevant in this thread and more broadly to TWC.

[Lifthrasir]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is about the total War games series and their future, not about this site or any other one. Thank you for your understanding.

[Daruwind]

Warhammer II is Gold Tier of 2018 Steam sales:
https://store.steampowered.com/sale/winter2018bestof/
In company of other great games like Kingdome Come, Assassin Creed Origin, Stellaris, Witcher 3, Patch of Exile... Only Strategy getting Platinum Tier is Civilization, all others like CK2, Heart of Iron 4, Age of Empires 2 HD are Bronze as well.

Warhammer I, Rome 2 and Thrones of Britannia got the Bronze Tier as well.

So from selling point of view it looks like quite good year for CA.

[Lord Baal]

Well, there's hope that then more money means a even better wh3.

[Anna_Gein]

Warhammer 2 is a nice game. If CA follow trough and develop again deep and rewarding games, TW will have bright days ahead.

I think a big issue during the last 10 years was CA propensity to just make it harder to play TW by constantly adding barrier & malus. I dislike Attila for this reason.

[Noif de Bodemloze]

For me personally, the TW downhill began when came this Total War: Warhammer 1 & 2 (Not interested to theme and title at all) so during that time I barely I haven't touch to any other TW games... well, RL stuffs came first and then simply came other games what I have played a lot. I still have like Rome 2 and Attila on my PC, but haven't touched them for while, but maybe someday I find my motivation to play them. The three kingdom is very interesting and I want to play it, but I have learned to be aware with preorder games nowadays so I will wait and observe what other people will say about the game before I will throw my money.

[Swaeft]

For me personally, the TW downhill began when came this Total War: Warhammer 1 & 2 (Not interested to theme and title at all).

I'm with you on that one, I'm more of a fan of their historical titles, but I can see why they are expanding into fantasy, there's just so much source material and such a big market.

[Maximinus Thrax]

For me personally, the TW downhill began when came this Total War: Warhammer 1 & 2 (Not interested to theme and title at all) so during that time I barely I haven't touch to any other TW games...

So you think it is Warhammer that is essentially detrimental to the series, the title that brought the downfall of the series, and not the more recent titles that almost destroyed CA's credibility among its fanbase. Very interesting. I'd say it's quite the opposite. Warhammer has helped the TW series remain relevant by bringing quite a lot to the table in terms of features and gameplay (unfortunately for TW purists, these fun features will never be replicated in future historical games). These games have also helped CA as a way of saving face by ensuring its customers they can still produce great products.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

I agree with the OP. But I think Empire: Total War wasn't that bad, either. Medieval II and Rome: Total War are my absolute favourites, though.

The downfall began with Warhammer and the death-knell came with the "mini campaigns" (Thrones of Britannia or whatever they called it - I didn't even bother playing).

If CA/Sega are listening, the fans want historical Total Wars and grand campaigns. We don't care about skins and all. We want interesting campaigns.

[Warcraft12]

I agree with the OP. But I think Empire: Total War wasn't that bad, either. Medieval II and Rome: Total War are my absolute favourites, though.

The downfall began with Warhammer and the death-knell came with the "mini campaigns" (Thrones of Britannia or whatever they called it - I didn't even bother playing).

If CA/Sega are listening, the fans want historical Total Wars and grand campaigns. We don't care about skins and all. We want interesting campaigns.

Agree with this.

[izzi]

Sadly guys, this is an evolution that is lately happening with AAA games. Many of them are not even finished when releasing the game. Or have a lot of bugs and glitches during release. The same for CA. CA is not always making those final decisions, it is under the loop of a big game publisher "Sega". And most big publishers want to satisfy the investors to gain money. Investors are more and more investing in games, because the market is huge and even bigger than the movie industry. So it's difficult for developers like CA to satisfy the fans without asking a huge amount of money in the base game, pre-orders and DLC's (and let us hope not micro transactions and loot boxes). If you really want a game that will be fantastic, than you need developers (or indie developers) that are not bound to those big gaming publishers like Sega, EA, Activision,etc....

[Flinn]

Investors are more and more investing in games, because the market is huge and even bigger than the movie industry.

it's been at the least 10 years since video game market surpassed the movie market, worldwide

sadly you are right, it's all about business; some business "models" are meant to be only temporary, in other words their purpose is to gather as much money as possible in the shortest possible time... the long-term business model is not very much applied in video-gaming, especially because of mobiles and tablets, which changed the way investors see the profitability of that market

[OpusDei]

They should never have fired the first programmers, they were awsome, knew how to build gaming pleasure. The newer younger team only focuses on graphics and like experimenting with new systems that simplty will never work and people don't like. I remember my reaction with Rome II where the lazy programmers changed nothing in the early battle scripts (because they can not program!! can not code/decode), pure poverty. Furthermore the teenage programmers do not know what made the first TW games a succes, the gaming style, the menu's, the experience system, all ruined to the point that chevrons/experience are no longer a gaming attribute, because not working! There is no reward for your troops if they fight battles, they are just born with 9 chevrons late game and loose all their experience after one fight or even just by entering a city. What a ridiculous system. Up tot Empire threre was a rewarding experience system. Empire was the best TW game so fare, even with all the bugs, it gives you the feeling of the world and conquerer, even also with the bad diplomacy, there still was region trading possible. Many new things after Medivial II and Empiere were great ideas, but have also been abandonded again in newer games. Gaming is about the feeling, about joy, not so much about new possibilities (which are flawed anyway) or stupid graphics. These problems are due to commerce, the total lack of vision by hiring kids to do the programming and very sorry development team managers that have no clue what makes a game addictive.So in my opinion is the TW series dad? Yes in principality it is, because we will never get the same excitement and joy that the earlier games have. But not dead in theory, becauses new games will come out and little children will want to play them next to all modders (as I am) trying to fix the bad Original games coming out, but frustrated because modding has been made very difficult with the hardcoded/encrypted files.This is what I want to say to the Board of Directors: Shame on you!

[AnthoniusII]

Lets summarise. New developers are under time preasure by the main company that wants fast results because time is money. No one can ignore this.
The question -that CA/SEGA deveopers never answered- is simple. Since the main code of each TW game is property of CA what prevented the newer developers to "polish" and further develope older TW game features that would make a great difference with the newest graphics.
Why:
Sapping is not available after RTW-1
Creation of battlefileds according to strat_map tiles like in M2TW
Player can not capture an enemy ship like in ETW
Why AI can not hundle two or more armies when besiege a city like in RTW untill Shogun II.
Why mounted units can not dismount to use siege equipment like in Shogun II
The list of features is endless...
Few of the developers were modders and so they have knowlege of what was available as a feature in the games they modded. So...why those developers found so in capable simply transform lines of code to the new engine to have the same features?
WHY?

[Warcraft12]

Lets summarise. New developers are under time preasure by the main company that wants fast results because time is money. No one can ignore this.
The question -that CA/SEGA deveopers never answered- is simple. Since the main code of each TW game is property of CA what prevented the newer developers to "polish" and further develope older TW game features that would make a great difference with the newest graphics.
Why:
Sapping is not available after RTW-1
Creation of battlefileds according to strat_map tiles like in M2TW
Player can not capture an enemy ship like in ETW
Why AI can not hundle two or more armies when besiege a city like in RTW untill Shogun II.
Why mounted units can not dismount to use siege equipment like in Shogun II
The list of features is endless...
Few of the developers were modders and so they have knowlege of what was available as a feature in the games they modded. So...why those developers found so in capable simply transform lines of code to the new engine to have the same features?
WHY?

I agree. (sigh)

[Jurand of Cracow]

Starting a different issue:
I think that a big problem of playing the newer games is also the lack of the "big" mods, transforming the games entirely or adjusting the parameters with extreme care or transforming the AI entirely. Compare this situation like 10 years ago and the number of mods for Rome and Medieval 2: I would play a dozen of such big mods and have fun, while for Rome there're few (for me just one - the DeI, but perhaps a few more are worthy) and for Attila (any big one besides Ancient Empires?) and now for the Thrones (maybe Shieldwall or Crucible of Kings would develop at some point, but are not very advanced yet).

There're for sure many reasons for that, I'd just name two. One, the proliferation of the games making the modding community spread thinly. Second, the restriction on creating the new maps makes it impossible to make really different but credible worlds (like TATW).