The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

[AnthoniusII]

it's fine but let's stop it here ok?

besides, backing to the topic.. today I was watching some videos on youtube about graphics of TK.. in all due honesty I never paid very much attention to graphics (sure I like eye candies every once in a while, but still...), but I'd rather focus more on game mechanics, which is were I think the series lacked more in general; vanilla Rome or Med 2 were not so better than vanilla Rome 2 IMO, there are some limits that are there since ages (such as limited number of warriors on the screen) .. it is pretty much obvious that as Rome and Med 2 are much more moddable, many of these limits have been amended by modders, so I really don't want to start a rant over this again, I think that less or more everybody agrees on this.. but well, if I were CA I would have worked more on mechanics and reality rather than graphics; this is clearly a marketing choice (with the fancy and shining WH series on the top of this logic) and it's a consequence of the period we are living ... if you look at all the most recent titles, basically none is moddable as it was in the past (either we don't have tools, or there are more hardcoded things, etc) and the whole process started years ago (tangent example, I was a modder of NWN1 at the time, when I was running with a friend a small online shard.. modding was intuitive and fast, very flexible; when NWN2 came out we were all excited, and we got terribly deluded .. pretty much the same that happened with Rome 2 I guess).

However, in all due honesty I'm happy that we still have Rome and Med 2 with so many great mods and I don't think I'll ever adapt myself to the new titles.. sure I enjoyed both Empire and Shogun, because the setting was different from the old titles, but everything that "copies" the old Rome and Med 2 is simply not interesting to me

Most of the "complainers" or "whiners" like me would agree. We all like graphics improvement because its the 1st step that makes a battle player to start feeling that is participating in that battle or he is the scenario editor of a movie he/she is the editor!
But after the visual fact there are a huge number of features that needed inorder to make that "eye candy" realistic as possible. A player that plays a battle needs to feel the chaos, the difficulty , the danger of his troops, to get him/her self deep in the essense of the battle and not just make shooting practice in crash test dummies! The player needs to know history feeling that holds the history itsslef in his/her hands not to simply watch troops marching or horses sneesing! The player needs a game that will press his mind to the edges trying to make desisions that will allow him to win or atleast learn why he/she lost that battle! The player needs to feel how to negosiate and start understanding the delimas the people of the past that realy fought the battles now h/she plays , thought and made those desisions! But alas...Since RTW that was revolutionary ina way of being able to see real soldiers and real cities, but lost interesting features that MTW-1 had, TW games are in a downfall spiral. In the end TW game wont have the sign that they are for children up to 13 years old but for children under 8 years old....That is where the CA/SEGA managemet drove TW games to...

[Flinn]

The player needs to feel how to negosiate and start understanding the delimas the people of the past that realy fought the battles now h/she plays , thought and made those desisions!

I cannot withness what's for the later titles and of course every game can be played in easy mode, but I remember very well how shocking it was when I first tried TATW 3.2 in VH/VH.. it took me about 3 days just to realize that I had to rethink completely the way I was playing.. I think I could not play anything different for at least one month and when I changed, it was just to switch to MOS, which was told to be harder than TATW...

The great part about those mods is that they are no just "hard" to play, but that they feel realistic in the way you have to deal with ... sure sometimes things got unbalanced (stack spam was not so uncommon), but again the high moddability of the games allowed for further refination and more than often one didn't have to download a new mod but just ask to fellow players and he was directed to simple and quick edits he could do himself, if he wanted (it happened to me many times).. other times Anthonius, nowadays the logic is completely different in both games and modders, let's stick with our old times and enjoy what we have.. I don't have so much free time anymore in any case, so

[Daruwind]

there are some limits that are there since ages (such as limited number of warriors on the screen)

Check the Laboratory mode (FLC) for WH2. It is allowing player to change some settings like models per units up to 10x ? CA stated they are using it to see feedback what are people capable of running. Basically reason why we have similar number of units on battlefield is we are getting more details but if you look down,that are pretty big numbers ;-)

[AnthoniusII]

I cannot withness what's for the later titles and of course every game can be played in easy mode, but I remember very well how shocking it was when I first tried TATW 3.2 in VH/VH.. it took me about 3 days just to realize that I had to rethink completely the way I was playing.. I think I could not play anything different for at least one month and when I changed, it was just to switch to MOS, which was told to be harder than TATW...

The great part about those mods is that they are no just "hard" to play, but that they feel realistic in the way you have to deal with ... sure sometimes things got unbalanced (stack spam was not so uncommon), but again the high moddability of the games allowed for further refination and more than often one didn't have to download a new mod but just ask to fellow players and he was directed to simple and quick edits he could do himself, if he wanted (it happened to me many times).. other times Anthonius, nowadays the logic is completely different in both games and modders, let's stick with our old times and enjoy what we have.. I don't have so much free time anymore in any case, so

True...When I asked Ceasar Clivus to create the 1st Komnenean Roster in CBUR he called me "a crazy man" for the details i asked. The same happened when "moddeling" and texturing stretched to the edges in TGC fellowship! Mu obsesion to details i have the fear will go wasted ...Textures that TGC members created had even the slightest pin, even the slightest shadow and maximum detail inorder to "educate" the players while the PLAY! The new members in TGC the last 2 years made the game so detailed that i could only dreamed about it. When i test campaigns and battles all my expirience go watsed because now AI is smart enough to "answer" to my moves. RealyBadAI by Germanicu5 and XCAI makes the mod extemely chalenging! I warn TATW players that despite they wont confront Dragons they will confront realy badass warriors! And again comes to my mind the question. IF non payed, non expirient modders achieved so many WHY highly payed and expiriend game developers that WE PAID FOR THEIR WORK, made so little. I quess this question will never get an answer!

[Flinn]

T WHY highly payed and expiriend game developers that WE PAID FOR THEIR WORK, made so little. I quess this question will never get an answer!

I'll tell you a secret, it's not us that we pay them, but the company that hired them .. yes I know, we pay the company, but there's a big difference here: when you got paid, you do what they tell you to do, the incentive to do more or better is close to zero.. on the other hand, when you do something for yourself (either for fun or money), you are stimulated to do better and more, hence the difference.

finding someone who's got the balls to be independent when working for someone else is more unique than rare (usually they make their own company ) look at Michelangelo: he fought with almost every of his committente (customer) to decide what to do and he usually won .. that's why he is Michelangelo, you know

edit:

Check the Laboratory mode (FLC) for WH2. It is allowing player to change some settings like models per units up to 10x ? CA stated they are using it to see feedback what are people capable of running. Basically reason why we have similar number of units on battlefield is we are getting more details but if you look down,that are pretty big numbers ;-)

very interesting, thanks for sharing!

[AnthoniusII]

I'll tell you a secret, it's not us that we pay them, but the company that hired them .. yes I know, we pay the company, but there's a big difference here: when you got paid, you do what they tell you to do, the incentive to do more or better is close to zero.. on the other hand, when you do something for yourself (either for fun or money), you are stimulated to do better and more, hence the difference.

Actually we pay for their finall product. See an example: I come to you and convince you that i will sell you a Lamborgini. The price is fixed , you agree and you pay waiting that Lomborgini you ordered to arrive. Instead i bring you a car worst than '70s Autobianki and tell you "Congrats for you buy". How would call my action that momment?
Is the price you paid worth of the finall car that arrived to your hands?

[Flinn]

yes, but what I meant was: you cannot blame the worker because of the company's policies.

in the case above you presented, the fault is of the company (management), not of the workers who assembled the Autobianchi

[AnthoniusII]

I accuse the developers for lack of efforts inorder NOT to leave out of TW games successfull features of the past. I blame them that did not tried hard enough and when they posted here they promised "Lamborginis" and not Autobiankis!
I accuse them that -in order to avoid critisism- they tried to change not only History but Logic its self to hide their lack of abillities to fix spesific errors. If they would not used TWC to false promote unworthy TW games ussing lies , i woul dsay nothing atall.
In the end no one wants to considered a fool by others and these "others" were the CA/SEGA devs that they had our TRUST!
No fixes but unlogical features, no explains but more DLCs, no excuses but deleted member accounts from their official forum and FB to avoid critisism.
Last week i played (actually bought it for 2 Euros) and old game named Knights of Honor and enjoyed the game! Right after i gave Rome II and Attila an other shot to gain my "trust"....Nothing!
I can't stare that rediculus towers and dirt walls that melt by rain and time, the rediculus AI , the battlefield camera that inorder to see warriors to fight and enjoy them you need to slow down time!!!
I looked back in RTW and the graphics seamed to me (i got too much used to TGC ones) aufull but when siege started i forgot the graphics and enjoyed a battle that stretched my mind to its ends!
A huge WHY? is my question all these last years... No answer given!

[Daruwind]

@AnthoniusII Well maybe check new update for R2. For free they are adding and fixing a lot stuff. So cannot blame them for lack of effort. R2 release was not great but at least they are still trying to improve things. And fixing/updating things for WH is also quite good. Not perfect,still some bugs here and there but I´m pretty satisfied.

[AnthoniusII]

Still no complete modding tools, still an unfinished game after so many years but we paid for a complete game.

[NorseThing]

Actually you pay for what is on offer. To demand more than that is unfair to the game producer and leads to endless quibbling about the idea of complete.

[Totalheadache]

Actually you pay for what is on offer. To demand more than that is unfair to the game producer and leads to endless quibbling about the idea of complete.

Drivel. It is your right to demand more always...whether or not the producer feels its necessary so be it.

Quibbling is part of progress has been and always will be. Its certain elements who dont know how to "quibble" or dont "quibble" correctly that is the problem.

But yes its your choice at the end of the day whether you pay for something but with games as we all know there's a certain amount of hype/marketing that clouds ones judgement.

[AnthoniusII]

Actually you pay for what is on offer. To demand more than that is unfair to the game producer and leads to endless quibbling about the idea of complete.

But it seams you missed my previus post.
If the offer for you money is a Lamborgini, you pay for a Lamborgini and instead you recieve an Autobianki, how would you call this action? Deseption maybe or you could use another term?

[The Noble Lord]

Yes, I remember the glory days of M2TW and M2TW:Kingdoms and all the mods and how excited we were. And they destroyed everything with ETW
and new Warscape engine. It was a disappointment of monumental proportions. It was ETW when TW series started going downhill!!

Shogun 2 improved things and so did R2TW and Atilla. Warhamer is a joke most definitely.

CA needs to go back to basics, historically authentic and accurate games that portray periods in history and
the way they made RTW, RTW:Barbarian Invasion and M2TW and M2TW: Kingdoms.

[Totalheadache]

Yes, I remember the glory days of M2TW and M2TW:Kingdoms and all the mods and how excited we were. And they destroyed everything with ETW
and new Warscape engine. It was a disappointment of monumental proportions. It was ETW when TW series started going downhill!!

Shogun 2 improved things and so did R2TW and Atilla. Warhamer is a joke most definitely.

CA needs to go back to basics, historically authentic and accurate games that portray periods in history and
the way they made RTW, RTW:Barbarian Invasion and M2TW and M2TW: Kingdoms.

Agreed! To be honest if wasnt for Paradoxes awfull dlc policy as well would be playing EU4 right now. Ok I miss the action but its so much more immersive.

[Lionheart11]

CA started to sell incomplete games along time ago because they new they could divide it into DLC for greed sake. The fact you can hold back cultures in a game borders on racism, who do you include and who do you charge more for?. Let face is they have adopted the micro transaction model. You learn in business the customer is always right, like when they tried to change coke cola and got a huge backlash, the bottom line is customers pay for there jobs and CEO holidays so its a good idea to always keep them happy. The old CA just made good games, they didn't even spend money on advertising, the final product sold itself and a legend was born, they have been milking that legend for a while now but people are waking up now. Development has taken a back seat, same engine for 15 years now and it could be argued the old games played better.

[AnthoniusII]

CA needs to go back to basics, historically authentic and accurate games that portray periods in history and
the way they made RTW, RTW:Barbarian Invasion and M2TW and M2TW: Kingdoms.

I agree totaly with your post...But what i quote of it is the main essense.
CA/SEGA devs ARE INCAPABLE to bring back old and succefull features of older TW games. They simply DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS.. for it. And those that had them either left the company after M2TW/KINGDOMS or CA/SEGA did not hired them for the sake of incapable ones with better public relations! That is the point. CA.SEGA chosen devs that CAN NOT bring back features that made older TW games famous! All they do is make graphics changes and use modder's work as their new game (CA shon a chinese mod 2 years ago in the Facebook page that looks EXACTLY the upcomming Three Kingdoms TW) and when i asked them what is the point to advertice such a mod without the abillity of new map they blocked me from their FB page and their Official Forums!
The so called developers simply polish work of modders and sell us what other doing for free!

[HammerheadShark]

I generally tend to agree with this, having played every total war game since Shogun. Though, as broken as it initially was, I did like Empire and spent a bit of time on it since I like that era and still I hope for Empire 2 one of these days, provided CA doesn't botch it. Hoping against hope, but one can dream. Maybe after they've finished with Warhammer and the spin-off saga games, which I'll get to in a bit.

In the old days, I'd buy Total War games almost without hesitation. However, after Rome II and the disaster that was, I haven't bought anything since. Someone bought Attila for me, which was nice, but it didn't really feel like anything special, very much a glorified expansion rather than a full game. Didn't buy Thrones of Britannia either and I don't expect to, it's a spin-off with reused Attila assets so I think I will pass. Oh, and what frustrated me beyond all about Rome II was the addition of things like "culture packs"- making you pay for content that's already in the game when you've paid full price for it as well as the blood packs; a modder could have easily made something better so it's undoubtedly a shameless cash grab.

Furthermore, I don't have anything against the Warhammer universe or Warhammer fans, but it just feels like that series has become CA's prize child, everything else is an irrelevant sideshow, including the historical fans who've been, I dunno, buying TW games loyally for over a decade now. The way that said historical fans are treated now doesn't sit well with me either, every response from them about a future historical game is usually a less blunt variation of "stop pestering us and come back when we want your money". People said "stop being ungrateful, you're getting a historical title thanks to fantasy", so I thought, whatever, they may be right. However, we're still waiting for a proper historical title.

Is the series dead? Not by definition, but it's becoming dead to me. It is clearly a shadow of its former self, and I don't know long it can go on stumbling like this. Maybe it will rise from the dead. Maybe it won't. The one thing I can say is that at least we don't have lootboxes or any other microtransactions yet. Yet.

[Bran Mac Born]

Total war is alive because of modders-play some mods.

[Clint_Eastwood]

Such a shame that this series of games has become a debate of this nature and I have to a agree it has taken 5 years at least for Rome 2 to become something of a fairly decent game now. Saying that it still has its flaws and I hear what members like Anthionus II are so frustrated about and appreciate his passionate approach on the matter.

but the simple answer is this....CA do not have the ability or the tools in there development team to bring us what we need and we can only be offered a game with the limitations they can offer us. I know it’s crazy when you look at the game engine they have brought to market (warscape engine) you think it should have the capabilities to deliver what we all expect.

Unfortunately not and because of this and the approach of CA’s vision which is clearly Warhammer and now another far eastern based game around an era that I doubt many are interested in. There is so much history in the western world that is not covered I think they are now just opening doors to other companies to scoop up and bring us historical gamers what we really want.

For me I am that bored with this franchise apart from playing War of the Gods, DEI and Ancient empires on Attila I have returned back to tabletop war gaming as this hobby covers every era and all possibilities that fill my criteria. I really thought that my days of tabletop gaming had diminished due to the fact I could play my dreams on a digital battlefield but that has simply not been the case.