View Poll Results: Do you feel the TW series has gone downhill since Medieval II?

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193. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes! All the newer Total War games suck!

    37 19.17%
  • Yes. I like some of the newer games but the older games were better

    95 49.22%
  • No. The new games are just fine.

    54 27.98%
  • I love Failhammer. I'll buy whatever CA does regardless

    7 3.63%
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Thread: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

  1. #261

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Incendio View Post
    It is weird to admit that I prefer older Total War games over newer ones? I watched a video about Three Kingdoms and I have to say that I am not longer interested in games like that. The fight between those chinese generals looks more like an anime or martial arts and is not what I am looking for. I am not honestly attracted by the latest Total War games and this made me think that unless a new Total War based on the periods I really like to see I will be better to keep on playing the games that I liked during years and made me to be a huge fan of Total War: Medieval II, Empire, Napoleon, Shogun 2 FoTS, Rome 2, I even prefer Attila over fantasy games. Furthermore, I refuse to spend 3 of the grand to play the latest Total War games that I guess require an insane computer that at this moment I cannot afford.
    Frankly, Attila requires more of a supercomputer to run than any of the games that came after it. There's also a case to be made that Attila is as much of a fantasy game as the Warhammers, if you're like me and you find the following to essentially be fantasy: unrealistic rosters (Sassanid automatic crossbow cavs, stupidly heavy Hunnic infantry, and OP Slav poison arrow archers immediately come to mind), arbitrary unit tiers, inane hyperbole employed by all character depictions everywhere, and absurd portrayal of fire arrows (being shot out of wooden towers no less like thats not a huge waiting to happen) being absolutely everywhere such that the overarching theme of the game is literally burning everything, from palisade walls and entire city blocks by infantry units in less than a minute, and even entire ships. I'd felt that Creative Assembly had an unhealthy relationship with fire arrows beginning with Shogun 2, but Attila really brought it to the fore. I wanted to like the game, with it's massive improvements on political systems and naval landings over its predecessor, but the incessant lag and the absurdities (IMO granted - there's relatively little primary sources from this period and Creative assembly interpreted those very ... creatively) resulted in me losing interest in the game quickly. I am really interested in the time period, and I had hoped that the mod scene would go a long way towards ameliorating a lot of my concerns with that game due to the fact that many of my objections are based on moddable design decisions, but the fact that CA finished developing the game while leaving it in its poorly optimized state coupled with CA's decisions to make Thrones of Britannia a completely new game rather than an Attilla DLC and to suddenly go back and start making content for Rome 2 means that Attila's remaining player and modder base is very small.

    I apologize to the community for this poorly written rant, but it really does feel good to rant on the internet sometimes, and this thread seemed like a good place to give the game a piece of my mind. I often feel, especially when reading rants like mine above on steam comments and discussion threads, that the reviewer is acting kind of entitled, which makes me want to disregard their viewpoint. I guess I'm being hypocritical in that regard.

    Anyway, thanks for reading!

    TLDR;

    Attila Total War in particular doesn't deserve to be considered a historical title in this snobby authors opinion.


    P.S. In answer to the poll, my vote would be for the nonexistant option 5. I actually do enjoy "failhammer" but I won't buy all the newer titles that CA sells. The biggest reason I like the Warhammer games is because they go out of their way to suspend realism. As this post shows, realism and authenticity are important to me in games that promote themselves as historical. Because Warhammer and Warhammer 2 do not do that, I don't hold them to the same standards I hold CA's other titles. I actually think Warhammer 2 is one of CA's best games, because it really plays to the strengths of the total war series: It provides good battles with lots of beautifully animated and tactically unique units, offering factions that play the game very differently thus enhancing replayability. On top of that, unlike many other games with good battle mechanics, it makes the outcomes of those battles matter in a fairly well designed grand strategy map that the player attempts to conquer.

    My snobbiest statement of this entire essay is this: I would actually prefer that CA stick to fantasy and mostly fiction-colored settings (like Romance of the Three Kingdoms). My reason for this is that they have made it apparent in my extremely snobbish opinion that a realistic portrayal of warfare and historical accuracy/authenticity/whatever are low priorities to them. I wouldn't be bothered by this if it weren't for the fact that CA's games are marketed as being authentic to their settings. I'd prefer that if CA did make a new historical title, it would be extremely carefully researched so that it could bring the gamer to a setting that offers the player many of the same dilemmas a real ruler of the setting would have had to deal with. Barring that, I'd like a game that is far more moddable than games made on the warscape engine, namely the ability to mod campaign maps, battle maps etc so that CA could offer their usual trope-driven modern politically influenced color of the setting with mostly fictional though supposedly historical faction rosters. That way a dedicated team of modders could make the setting more authentic while CA can spend far less time and money into developing the setting to appeal to what it considers (and probably is if I'm being honest) a wider audience.

    Good Lord I'm such a nerd. My apologies for the post script rant.
    Last edited by Standard Nerd; October 08, 2018 at 07:27 PM. Reason: some grammar edits and a stupid post script

  2. #262
    Gigantus's Avatar I came, I saw, I tutored
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    I'm afraid that your evident unwillingness to provide details to explain CA's apparent loss of interest in TWC when it is clear that CA no longer posts around where when it once did and the thoughts often expressed around here are pretty TWC centered and not as easily found on another platform or reflected in how TW works these days makes me very disinclined to believe that you can speak any more surely than I can, and thus move my thoughts on the matter. My point was never about TWC helping CA grow in the first place; I would say yes, yes it did, and it would be unappreciative if CA did not acknowledge the fact. But that was neither here nor there, nor indeed my point.
    If comments elsewhere (I'll dig if required) are anything to go by then CA has dropped (simply stopped) communications with a number of traditional forums and has switched their PR focus to social media. Given the ever shrinking attention span of customers that probably was a smart move where the sales department was concerned.

    Mildly unrelated and a shameless plug but probably good for a laugh: I was rather amused when 3K was announced with great fanfare: reason.
    Last edited by Gigantus; October 08, 2018 at 10:38 PM.


  3. #263

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    If comments elsewhere (I'll dig if required) are anything to go by then CA has dropped (simply stopped) communications with a number of traditional forums and has switched their PR focus to social media. Given the ever shrinking attention span of customers that probably was a smart move where the sales department was concerned.
    This is the impression I've been getting.


  4. #264
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    As I wrote man times what realy is "Historical Accuracy" depends on each one's personal education and national taste.
    Its hard to make a realy good historical accurate game because it will come across with many "Copy Rights" by book authors, art creators, history researchers and Museums.
    TW became revolotunary not with its apsolute historical accuracy (hundreds of mods created to "fix" that issue) but with features that allowed the player "participate" in the battles ON THE GROUND.
    There are games with better AI but not with battle simulation as Shogun I but Revolutionary ROME I introdused in gamming!
    Here we face few problems as the TW game series involve. Nottice the word involve because that word is the heart of the debate here.
    Lets see what involvments the latest TW games (i do not include WH because its a fantacy game)brough:
    Better graphics
    Better horse models....Wait i can not find something realy revolutionary to mention when I compare Rome II and Attila TW with previus TW titles.
    In fact since day one that Rome II WAS RELEASED endless lists of previus TW games features that ARE NOT included have been published!
    Some brought the excuse that the new game engine could not "fit" older essensial features of TW games in to the new ones. But here is the FRAUD.
    When Rome II was announced CA members promished a game that would be superior in ALL aspects and ALL features of what we had lived in TW titles untill that day!
    Expectations created , money saved to buy that "revolutionary" game and then....
    AI was the most stupid of all TW games (remember that in early patches they only tried to burn down gates with torches and later they cold not properly use any siege equipment)!
    Wait....AI got better in Attila ...how...Lets compare it not with Rome I (that would be unfair for Attila) but with M2TW/Kingdoms that lost half or Rome I's siege features.
    In M2TW enemy builded rams, ladders, siege towers. When some of those got burned a new unit returned and picked up an other siege piece and tried again.
    Because M2TW had multiple wall layer settlements AI re-used unharmed siege equipment that used it in 1st layer of walls or gates to proceed to the next one.
    That looked quite realistic EVEN if the units that used them may or may not be accurate at all.
    What we have in Attila? AI can not use siege equipment again...infact in most of cases it can not use it even once and there for CA/SEGA developers found the solution into the Bible and Jesus of Navi that brought down Jericho's walls with trumpets!!! If trumpets are not available in AI controled armies , rain and wind make the work for them. All this miracle named "siege escalation"...
    Ok ..someone will say...Rome I HAD Pharaonic Egyptians the siege escalation is the problem? Yes because starting with ROME II CA/SEGA introdused videos with real historians explaining some events but they seamed to forget to ask them IF walls truble and fall by their own! It was not humiliating for CA/SEGA but also for the historians that agreed to participate unless they never saw in what their participation included in.
    TW games will slowly die because NO ONE in their dveloping teams realy intersting to work and create or re-create something that will look realistic.
    Imagine my disapointment when i saw wonderfull Samurai with cow shaped horses and when i saw wonderfull horse models with the worst AI ever.
    Automaticaly came to my mind this tiny video of a team that worked on a mod (they were graphics and animators for other projects and the mod was their hobby).

    If four guys could create such a material 10 years ago FOR FREE then what we had to expect from douzens of developers that we payed them more thna 100 EUROS for their aufull work?
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  5. #265
    Daruwind's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    ...TW games will slowly die...

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15673777
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 11, 2018 at 01:45 AM. Reason: Off-topic part removed

  6. #266

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    @Daruwind: Those charts are really interesting. Thank you for sharing.

    I think an oft-overlooked fact on these forums is the multi-player scene. I’m not an expert by any means so don’t quote me on this but I think a big part of the “Failhammers” success comes from the fact that it has the largest and strongest multiplayer scene of any Total War Title ever. Many folks in this thread will disagree of course, but the battle mechanics of the game, the completely unique nature of the many available faction rosters, and the novel magic system that can be extremely powerful in the hands of a skilled player make for a battle system that loans itself to an e-sports scene like no other total war game can, let alone any other real time strategy game about warfare that I can think of. The game also appeals to a lot of former Warhammer Fantasy Battle players who loved that game but gave up on the franchise when Games Workshop killed the setting and replaced it with Age of Skubmar.

    As for ROTK, my guess is that it’s pre-release success stems from its appeal to the massive emerging market that is Chinese PC gamers, coupled with the fact that it is an up-and-coming high production value AAA game that portrays a setting that is actually popular and unique for many gamers, as opposed to Attila and ToB that aren’t as popular settings and display the euro-centrism that has already been covered extensively by many other PC games. I guess I’m saying that like the Warhammers, maybe some of ROTKs popularity comes from the idea that it’s a breath of fresh air for the franchise.

    I strongly suspect that many, maybe even a majority, of the players that now play total war games have never been to TWC and will not share the opinion many hold here that the warscape engine is inferior to older engines and has been done to death by Creative Assembly.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 11, 2018 at 01:46 AM. Reason: For continuity

  7. #267
    PikeStance's Avatar ⚜️ Omnipresent ⚜️
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Creative Assembly has been making the Total war series for 18 years now. I purchased Shogun when it first came out. Later, I purchased Medieval. By then, I have gone overseas to work. When I lost the disks, I went ahead and bought Empire. We are now in 2010. I played it for a while before I discovered TWC. In fact, I only searched for it because I was looking at another gaming forum and I was wondering if Total War had a forum of its own. For 11 years I played Total War without any knowledge of any forum or site devoted to the game. The vast majority of people that play the series either do not know of or do not care about forums. I also didn't come here for mods, I came because I was curious about how other people played the game. TWC has a very bloated idea about itself and till this day, I am not sure why CA bothered to post here. They had their own website. This thread strikes me as funny because a simple search will show that the games are anything but failing. Simple rudimentary understanding of business and business practices will tell you if they were, then CA would definitely change their approach. Moreover, they are expanding their range of games. They have several teams working on several projects. CA or TW is not dying.
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  8. #268
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    I was rather amused when 3K was announced with great fanfare: reason.
    Yeah, also The Last Kingdom mod was a precursor to the Thrones of Britannia. Funny enough, I've bought the Thrones, played it (link to my review in the sig), then loaded TLK and I'm getting to a serious game with it as the strategic and role-playing layers seem to be much better than in the 10-year younger Thrones...
    Actually, I also suspect that the Gigantus' RoTK will give me more fun than the CA's new product.
    JoC
    For those who want to play a historical mod in a medieval setting:
    try either the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project + minimods,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine submod.
    ..........................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods: SSHIP (2018), Wrath of the Norsemen (2018), Broken Crescent (2018).
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    Pros and cons of having Merchants in an M2TW mod.
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    Dominant strategy in Attila TW and Rome 2 TW: “Sniping groups of armies”.
    A review of the Thrones of Britannia after the Sept 2018 update.

  9. #269
    Gigantus's Avatar I came, I saw, I tutored
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    LOL - I had a hand in TLK as well, just not as massive.


  10. #270
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Add in the list Attila and Rome II please ...Also add the FACT that M2TW still sold "copies" in STEAM the last years 12 years or more after its 1st release...
    I wonder why you avoid these statistics?
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 11, 2018 at 01:46 AM. Reason: For continuity
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  11. #271
    Daruwind's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Add in the list Attila and Rome II please ...Also add the FACT that M2TW still sold "copies" in STEAM the last years 12 years or more after its 1st release...
    I wonder why you avoid these statistics?
    Why? It was selling list/preorders at that time. There is no M2TW or R2 or Attila or any other TW. We saw only WHs/3K at the top of the lists...

    If you know hard data, please tell us. But the best we have is:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15623903
    So we have no idea about M2TW, Shogun 2 or any older games.
    Now the interested things we are getting is number of unique players per game who played the game at least once as of July 1, 2018:
    Empire: Total War 3,491,439
    Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition 3,350,407
    Napoleon: Total War 2,178,916
    Total War: WARHAMMER 2,085,605
    Total War: ATTILA 1,331,963
    Total War: WARHAMMER II 955,731
    Still I would not take R2 into mouth, seems it is selling decently, being the second best. And Why not care about Attila or ToB? Because future is secured by successful games. CA can cope with downs like Attila,ToB. Warhammer brings so much money, they could try ToB without concern as another side project. Same with R2 new DLCs, they were allowed by Warhammer success. Both these are not the major income for CA, Warhammer is and seems to be still selling well and current prediction says the 3K can turn into another big success due to Asia..

    Another artificial problem is, many old players re-bought their games in sales on steam. I do. Iīm also old player, I had many games on Discs like AoE,Gothics,TWs,Baldurs Gate.... But due to age and comfort I bought them again. (this applies to Rome,Shogun,Med1+2) Probably majority of people did. Still we donīt know the numbers. Only things we have is number of average players:
    https://steamdb.info/

    Warhammer 2 - 13,3K
    Rome 2 - 6,4K
    Warhammer - 3,2K
    -------------------------
    Medieval II - 3,2K
    Shogun 2 - 2,8K
    Empire - 2,7K
    Attila - 2,5K
    Napoleon - 1,4K
    Rome - 1,2K
    -------------------------
    ToB - 900
    Medieval - 100
    Shogun - 40

    TWs had massive sales recently. Thatīs why Whs were dominating the top seller list. But there were no other TW so high, Rome 2 probably selling too due to active player base, I would expect everything else to have lower sales.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 11, 2018 at 01:50 AM.

  12. #272
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar Bearded Moderation
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!


    Thread re-opened. Please stay on topic. Further transgression will lead to a permanent closure of this thread and possibly to a Moderation warning.

  13. #273
    Daruwind's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Huzzaaaa! Letīs continue in the discussion. So in meantime, we got some new info...
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15678619
    and I did some counting...
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15678863
    And while there is a lot unknown or not 100% sure things....

    My estimated result for Med 2 total sales is around 2,5 Millions sold copies at best and Rome probably over 2 Millions as well. Iīm not claiming those numbers to be exact or only possible but going with common sense and trying to count different aspects like expansions, (pre)steam era, using multiple materials as Valve Leak,Sega 2018 report, SteamDB, steam...Well feel free to make your own calculation or point out my mistakes.

    My main point is that while many consider Rome and Med 2 sales to be highest of all TWs over 15 years, the reality may be little different even if the actual numbers are shrouded in mystery and darkness. It is well possible the Empire and Rome 2 have already much higher sales and that Warhammer is actually closing as well...

    Please donīt take this as an attempt to shame Med 2 or any older TW. It is not. I own them I played them I love them. My conclusion is TWs are not dying as the recent TWs are selling more and more...even if to different peoples.

  14. #274

    Default Re: The TW series is dead. Everything after Medieval II sucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Huzzaaaa! Letīs continue in the discussion. So in meantime, we got some new info...
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15678619
    and I did some counting...
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15678863
    And while there is a lot unknown or not 100% sure things....

    My estimated result for Med 2 total sales is around 2,5 Millions sold copies at best and Rome probably over 2 Millions as well. Iīm not claiming those numbers to be exact or only possible but going with common sense and trying to count different aspects like expansions, (pre)steam era, using multiple materials as Valve Leak,Sega 2018 report, SteamDB, steam...Well feel free to make your own calculation or point out my mistakes.

    My main point is that while many consider Rome and Med 2 sales to be highest of all TWs over 15 years, the reality may be little different even if the actual numbers are shrouded in mystery and darkness. It is well possible the Empire and Rome 2 have already much higher sales and that Warhammer is actually closing as well...

    Please donīt take this as an attempt to shame Med 2 or any older TW. It is not. I own them I played them I love them. My conclusion is TWs are not dying as the recent TWs are selling more and more...even if to different peoples.

    Daruwind, as a fellow player and sometimes modder of the Total War games, I praise your evident, clear commitment and love for the series, demonstrated in many of your posts. But you must not forget when did the original Rome Total War and Medieval II came out.
    We are talking about between 11 and 14 years ago (Medieval II Kingdoms was released in 2007, Rome TW in 2004!). The distribution platforms, and heck, the technology herself were not the same as today! And so, if the original Rome TW and Medieval II are still selling, and in the case of Medieval II, with good figures in any case, that clearly deserves praise and it's the proof that those games were good (despite some evident design flaws - but hey, no game escapes the flaws, right? )

    Just like you, I enjoy the whole Total War universe. I never tried the original Shogun, started with the first Medieval a long, long time ago, and played every game since then, except Thrones of Britannia because of the negative reviews. I didn't enjoy Empire nor Napoleon so I only played them once and then never again. I enjoy Shogun 2, even Rome 2 (attention: in its current state), Attila (much more than Rome 2, it is a shame CA didn't give it the same love it gave to Rome 2 - but it is because of the bad reception Rome 2 generally had in the beginning), and the Warhammers.
    And I can tell you, as a very veteran player, that the original Rome and Medieval II, remain unsurpassed in terms of atmosphere, especially, that's true, with the great mods that were created for them. We owe much to the host of gifted and very talented modders that created many, many wonders for those games and gave them virtually infinite replayability, and again, repeating myself, atmosphere, "ambiance", either you play in the Middle Ages, in Late Antiquity, in the Modern Era, in High Antiquity, or in fantasy universes like Middle-Earth or the Warhammer universe; I first met Warhammer lore and enjoyed it in Call of Warhammer for Medieval II, that's why I play the Warhammers.
    I know you weren't bashing the older games, but just wanted to point out that we must put things in context, in perspective. Cheers.

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