Do Human units kind of just suck?

[gathomas88]

This is something of a trend I've noticed. Playing as the Empire - or pretty much any of the human factions - in custom battles, I tend to pretty frequently find myself getting massacred.

Infantry? Some of the pike units are "okay," I guess, but they only just barely hold the line at best against most other races, and they get slaughtered pretty easily by missile cavalry, or just missile units in general. They also seem to fare pretty poorly against giant units.

Cavalry? Forget it. (Barring one battle with Bretonia, where I basically just made an army of nothing but heavy cav and swamped my opponent with it) I haven't once been able to pull off a decent "hammer and anvil" in Warhammer either total war game. It doesn't seem to matter how hefty the flanking force happens to be, they just get bogged down and slaughtered, usually without even doing all that much damage. Missile cavalry, of course, have been pretty much worthless ever since the switch from the Med2 to the Empire Total War engine (unless the AI is using them).

Just about the only thing the EMP really seems to have going for it is guns and artillery, and even those are a heck of lot less effective than you might think.

I mean... Is there a strategy I'm missing here, or what? You'd think something similar to historical Tercios would be best for the human factions, given the roster they have, but in practice such tactics seem to be rather iffy at best.

[LestaT]

Pike units should work well against giants and cavalry though obviously since they dont have shields, they'll not fate well against missiles.

Hammer and anvil works best if used together with magic (those that reduce defence and morals).

[Ichon]

Empire strengths are in strong basic units, ranged and cavalry but it might not be obvious how to best use them.

Swordsmen and Halberdiers are the best bet to hold the line vs most opponents while Flaggellants that never rout can be amazing so long as they don't die too quickly. Crossbowmen and Handgunners can put out more damage very quickly than most other races ranged except for Elves. Reiksguard, Knights of the Blazing Sun, and Demis are by cost some of the best cavalries in the game only High Elves and Bretonnia can sort of match in value.

Empire also has really good artillery only Dwarfs might be more versatile and only Hellcannon and Plagueclaw catapult are perhaps better.

The only thing the Empire has that is the 'best' are Demigryphs. However Empire is competitive in 3 other categories and really only loses clearly in heavy infantry so having top 3 faction in ranged, arty, and cavalry and only bottom half in heavy infantry the Empire is actually pretty good but has only two amazing units in Ddemigryphs and Steamtanks (Steamtanks sort of their own thing no other faction has and while they are good vs AI in multi they cost quite alot and most people know how to counter).

[lord0thief]

I agree with @Ichon.

I've only played campaign, since I don't do multiplayer, but in my experience, the Empire excels when I have a good mix of infantry and artillery. The Hellstorm and Steamtanks are killer -- and not that many other factions (other than the Dwarves) can match the Empire in this regard (maybe Chaos' hellcannon but they have no other good, ranged options). At least in the campaign, even on Legendary, I've never really found myself highly outmatched when I had Gelt/Franz with a few steamtanks/hellstorms, and a good mix of handgunners (who have nice armor piercing), great swords, and halberds. Just deploy really far away and let the Hellstorms take out enemy armor.

Their major weakness (this goes for the Dwarves, too) is that they don't have any monsters. The High Elves have dragons (op, imo), the Dark Elves have dragons and hydras, the Skaven have Hellpits & decent artillery, the Lizardmen have a whole variety of dinosaurs, the Vamps have their own version of dragons and undead, the Brettonians have flying cavalry, Greenskins have Aranochs, etc. In the campaign, this basically means you need to overwhelm with sheer numbers (a whole stack dedicated to halberds/handgunners) in order to compensate for the damage monsters will do).

[gathomas88]

Here's what I've noticed:

I've been trying to beat an army of lizardmen in the custom battle area for about two weeks now. I've tried it with the Empire, I've tried it with Bretonnia. Every time, I lose, in spite of easily having two or three times more units on the field. It doesn't seem to matter if I try tercios, or echelons, or hammer and anvil, or envelopment, or just flat out raw massed firepower. I just don't seem to have anything capable of either taking out, or even really holding the line against, large dinosaur units. Feral Carnasaurs and Scarus Vets just wipe the floor with my infantry, and my heavy cav gets chewed to pieces every time it engages the mass of their army.

I try the same battle - just once - with Dwarves (an army I honestly don't even have any real experience playing), and I win the very first time, and it's not even difficult.

Hell! It was as simple as just putting 10 units of iron breakers in a checker board formation in my center, with a couple units of hammers on each the flank, with crossbowmen in the rear, thunderers up front, and holding six units of slayers in reserve. My front line absorbed their charge, and held. Then I sent in the hammerers and slayers to support them.

Easy-peasy. I won, only losing all of about 700 troops out of a force of 2000 or so, without even breaking a sweat.

By way of comparison, every battle I've ever been in with human armies outside of the campaign seems likes a desperate struggle at best, and is most often a loss.

[Ichon]

By custom battle do you mean multi or just playing vs the AI?

I haven't tried a custom match with Empire or Bretonnia vs Lizardmen but I think Empire should be able to win fairly easily though Bretonnia could definitely have a hard time. Demigryphs will tear apart Carnasaurs so long as you keep them away from their main line but with ferals and going beserk that should be pretty easy you can kite them then when they are isolated easily finished. Handgunners put out quite a bit of damage and then you just need to contain the Saurus Warriors which is probably best done with mostly Flagellants mixed with few Greatswords/Halberdiers.

Bretonnia... not really sure- I don't play them enough and it seems like a tough matchup.

[gathomas88]

By custom battle do you mean multi or just playing vs the AI?

I haven't tried a custom match with Empire or Bretonnia vs Lizardmen but I think Empire should be able to win fairly easily though Bretonnia could definitely have a hard time. Demigryphs will tear apart Carnasaurs so long as you keep them away from their main line but with ferals and going beserk that should be pretty easy you can kite them then when they are isolated easily finished. Handgunners put out quite a bit of damage and then you just need to contain the Saurus Warriors which is probably best done with mostly Flagellants mixed with few Greatswords/Halberdiers.

Bretonnia... not really sure- I don't play them enough and it seems like a tough matchup.

Custom battles against the ai. Like I said, I've been sort of hard pressed to find much success with human units.

I dunno. Maybe I just don't really understand the counters in WH total war well enough, or human factions require more of a "specialist" play-style than I'm used to. Lord knows micro isn't really my strong suit (never learned to use hotkeys, the mouse has always been my go to).

[Ichon]

Yeah I was thinking about what Bretonnia could do and other than Mounted Yeomen which are almost identical to Ellyrian Reavers with lower melee stats. Maybe some Questing Knights and Polemen Men at Arms. Making me sort of curious might have to test it myself.

What Lizardmen lineup are you using? I was going to do 12 Saurus Warriors 4 each type, couple Carnosaurs, and a few skinks Slann and melee hero.

[gathomas88]

Yeah I was thinking about what Bretonnia could do and other than Mounted Yeomen which are almost identical to Ellyrian Reavers with lower melee stats. Maybe some Questing Knights and Polemen Men at Arms. Making me sort of curious might have to test it myself.

What Lizardmen lineup are you using? I was going to do 12 Saurus Warriors 4 each type, couple Carnosaurs, and a few skinks Slann and melee hero.

Lizardman army build is basically just whatever the AI automatically comes up with when the funds are set to ultra, and the "control large armies" block in checked.

I'll have to check and see tomorrow what exactly that is on my system (doubt it'd be different on your's, but I guess you never know).

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Basically all lizard units have tons of armor. I'd go with tons of handgunners to compensate. Against the AI, it should be easy enough to get the lizards largely bunched around a few sturdy infantry units so you can just have free reign to gun them down from the flanks.

[gathomas88]

Yeah I was thinking about what Bretonnia could do and other than Mounted Yeomen which are almost identical to Ellyrian Reavers with lower melee stats. Maybe some Questing Knights and Polemen Men at Arms. Making me sort of curious might have to test it myself.

What Lizardmen lineup are you using? I was going to do 12 Saurus Warriors 4 each type, couple Carnosaurs, and a few skinks Slann and melee hero.

Alright, so here's a fairly typical line up, as far as I've been seeing. It varies somewhat, but it generally sticks fairly close to something along the lines of the following:

Map - Huachotli Temple

Lizardmen -

Lord (Sometimes Kroq, but usually a Slann Priest)
1 x Saurus Vet
1 x Skink Chief
5 x Temple Guard (1 x lvl 3 xp, 3 x lvl 1 xp, 1 x 0 xp)
1 x Saurus Inf (0 xp)
2 x Skink Cohort (1 x lvl 1 xp, 1 x 0 xp)
2 x Skink Schirmishers (1 x lvl 1 xp, 1 x 0 xp)
1 x Chameleon Skink (0 xp)
4 x Terradon Riders (2 x lvl 2 xp, 1 x lvl 1 xp, 1 x 0 xp)
1 x Terradon Fire Bola (0 xp)
4 x Cold One Spear Riders (1 x lvl 1 xp, 3 x 0 xp)
1 x Horned One Cavalry (lvl 1 xp)
3 x Feral Carnosaur (1 x lvl 2 xp, 1 x lvl 1 xp, 1 x 0 xp)
1 x Feral Stegadon (0 xp)
1 x Stegadon (lvl 2 xp)
4 x Bastiladon Solar Engine (1 x lvl 2 xp, 3 x 0 xp)

Troop total: 1568

I counter with the following (with some minor variation):

Sudenburg -

1 x Karl Franz (Deathclaw, all other items)
2 x Empire Captains (Nothing)
10 x Halberdiers (10 x lvl 1 xp)
3 x Great Swords (2 x lvl 1 xp, 1 x 0 xp)
2 x Swordsmen (2 x 0 xp)
4 x Handgunners (4 x 0 xp)
4 x Crossbowmen (4 x 0 xp)
2 x Reiksguard (2 x lvl 2 xp)
1 x Empire Knights (lvl 1 xp)
2 x Griffin Knights (Halberds) (2 x lvl 3 xp)
1 x Outriders (0 xp)
1 x Pistoliers (0 xp)
1 x Helblaster Volley Gun (0 xp)
2 x Helstorm Rocket Launchers (2 x 0 xp)
2 x Great Cannons (2 x 0 xp)
2 x Mortars (2 x 0 xp)

Troop Total: 3195

I generally arrange my army to take advantage of the terrain on the map. I start off on a hill, so I put my arty at the top of, facing down the nice little valley the AI pretty much always bottlenecks through to reach me. I arrange my troops in two little quasi square formations a little further down the slope of the hill from my arty - three forward facing sides of halberds, minus the back, with the sides angled outwards diagonally, and an Empire Captain, 2 units of crossbowmen, and a melee unit in the center of each square. I put the great swords on the flanks of the two squares, with one unit in the middle, between the two. Sometimes I put the volley gun just behind the great sword unit in the middle, sometimes I put it on the flank (if I'm lucky, the terradons will fly right into its line of fire and get wiped out early). I put my handgunners on the flanks, with maybe one unit in the middle, between the two squares, just in front of the great swords. I put all of my heavy cav in one group, on the flank, and I generally hide my missile cav in the woods on the other flank, with a melee unit for support (to keep enemy cav from getting behind my lines and wiping out my arty too quickly).

The battle pretty much ALWAYS seems to play out a bit like this:

The lizards march through the bottleneck in the middle, and their infantry get absolutely massacred by my artillery. Some units take more than 50% casualties, and my arty pretty much always seems to rack up kill counts in the dozens, and sometimes even hundreds. They send cavalry around the side, and I move my own cavalry to counter - this generally turns out to be a case mutually assured destruction. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't, but either way, my cav is pretty much done as an effective force by the time it all plays out.

The rest of the their army advances on my squares, and - initially, at least - things seem to go well, my arty keeps pounding them, and my gunners and crossbowmen get some good shots in. That is... UNTIL the giant units and hero units get involved. My halberds hold for a while, but they ALWAYS get wittled down, and eventually break. Usually, they don't even have very good kill counts - the last battle I played, a lot of my halberds had single digit kill counts, and some even had zero. The great swords fare a bit better, but they're just not enough.

Long story short, everything goes to hell, and the whole thing just turns into a giant rout, with feral carnosaurs chasing around scattered infantry units, as they periodically rally and rout again.

The major problem, as far as I can see it, is that halberdiers just aren't up to the task. I need them to counter the large units in the enemy formation, but they're just not getting the job done. The other problem is that Saurus units JUST. DON'T. ROUT. for whatever reason. They can be down to like 30 men, out of their original 100, and they just keep fighting on. I'm thinking this might contribute to the problems the halberds are having. They're confused on who they need to target, the giant units, or the infantry.

Either way, I always seem to lose when I play this battle with humans. As stated previously, however, the army of dwarves I used in one experiment was able to get the job done, and actually made it look easy.

I did also try just a regular line on a couple of occasions, thinking I was being too fancy. It didn't seem to make much difference.

[gathomas88]

Yea... I think this actually captures the crux of the issue rather nicely. What you see below is literally the first time this unit has seen action in the whole battle.

What does this supposedly "anti-large" specialized unit do at it's very first brush with an actually "large" unit? It immediately loses 60% of it's morale, and starts freaking the holy hell out.

Eeerrrmmm.. Wert de ferk?

[Ichon]

I'll try this later tonight but just looking at your army composition I'd drop the Pistoliers for sure- they are the worst unit in the game and do so little damage you can't even use it to kite very well.

Empire Captains are just so-so melee combatants in custom battle/quick battle- they really need the gear they can get in SP to make them equal other races melee heroes. I would definitely change 1 out for a Mage- probably of Light for Net of Amyntok but something that does anti-armor or heals your own units would work.

Flagellants. They do not break ever. They fight to the last making the Dino's root around much longer under fire form Handgunners. Sprinkle in some Greatswords/Halberdiers to put out some damage but don't cluster- the AoE and morale damage can hit several units so just put enough units into a fight to slow enemy down and protect the Handgunners.

Swordsmen might be useful if there were more Skinks but cavalry that can catch the Skinks and return to fight is probably better than 2 throwaway units that just buy you a little time if the AI doesn't focus on them as they chase Skinks. In the main line they will do less than Halberdiers.

Handgunners will do way more damage vs Dino than Crossbowmen but Crossbowmen are useful vs Skinks and Terradon Riders- I would probably do 6 handgunners and 2 crossbowmen.

Outriders can be useful in some situations but I think they aren't the most useful in this scenario though you might be able to get a Carnausaur to Rampage and chase the Outriders kiting them off the main battle.

That is alot of artillery- not sure how effective the Great Cannons would be- they work well vs large slow targets or other Artillery. Carnosaurs are fairly fast though and the Demis would do better.

+1 Demigryph if the AI has 3 Carnosaurs or definitely make sure to kite 1 away.

Some units have fear or terror that hit morale and you can see the results. Most monsters have at least fear, most have terror which is a bit more dangerous.

I'd probably make a plan based on what you need vs those units- artillery seems to mostly handle the Temple Guard and Skinks so Swordsmen nearly useless, the Empire Knights might be useful to chase down the remnants. More Flagellants or Greatswords to protect Handgunners- Flagellants are cheaper but won't put out as much damage or be as durable so some mix usually helps if you can keep 1 Empire Captain near center of the line for morale boost if Karl Franz and Deathclaw are elsewhere.

Demis vs Feral Carnosaurs and hope they can bring them down quickly enough to help vs some other fights.

KF and Deathclaw leadership boost might be most important task but can take on Slann or Saurus Vet.

Crossbowmen vs Terradon Riders

Handgunners vs Stegadons, Bastilidon, Cold Ones or Carnosaurs.

The most difficult matchup will be the Cold Ones/Horned Ones as they also have anti-large almost as good as Demi but will make short work of most things in Empire roster- Mage casting Net while Handgunners whittle them down a bit and some Reiksguard making sure they can't continually run away from the Halberdiers but vs 5 you'll need to dedicate 5-8 units making fight vs the rest of the army tougher.

I'll give it a go in a few hours and post results later though I was more interested in Bretonnia matchup I am fairly confident the Empire one shouldn't be super hard.


EDIT



Tried Bretonnia as well but lost barely... just could not kill the Blessed Temple Guard and then the Saurus Scar Veteran I thought I had chased off the map returned just as morale on the Bretonnian Lord wavered. I forgot that without DLC there are no Flagellants but the Halberdiers with Karl France 'Brace' ability did fine absorbing the charge and the Handgunners drove off most of the Dinosaurs leaving the Greatswords to flank the Saurus. Demis destroyed the Cold Ones faster than I anticiapted but the Saurus Scar Veteran nearly wiped out 1 Demi by himself- not sure how that happened. The other Demis chased off the Skinks and did some rear charges on the Blessed Saurus to wrap it up at the end. Karl Franz dealt with the Terradon riders then used the 'Brace' ability alot as it not only does 100% charge defense but +24 melee defense as well which Saurus with low melee attack have trouble against.

I'll try Bretonnia against and this time go less Grail Knights (they did ok but not worth 1500 for 3, just get 2). More Mounted Yeomen as the only 2 I had did great kiting and later destroying Skinks via double charge. More Polemen Men at Arms... they held really long vs the Saurus- much better than I expected and the Damsel is ok... might only bring her with a single spell and not mounted next time to add another Man at Arms or more XP.

2nd Edit- just realized forgot to select large armies, that does make a difference because Lizardmen have several Terror causing monsters with huge HP pools. Just did a quick comparison with the Army auto generationed has about 230,000 HP vs a good Empire army which has 170,000 HP, almost 1/3 difference. Regular army Empire can overcome that but yeah- on large funds the AI recruited 12 Dinosaurs with 100,000 HP and almost all with Terror. That does make it much harder.

Huh, you might be right- at least with the current balance. The faction unlocker only makes faction playable not balanced. The Blessed Spawns don't cost anything extra for the AI even though they add +1000 HP at least in most cases as well extra melee and leadership. I've killed Krok-Gar 3 times now and the weight of Dinosaurs is just too much. Best try was able to kill Krok-Gar and 2 Dinosaurs but Temple Guard destroy Demigryphs and they are the only thing that can take on Dinosaurs. 12 Dinosaurs with Terror were even causing nearly full HP Demigryphs to rout while infantry can handle Terror from 2-3 Dino.

Changing the Blessed spawns to normal units and only giving the AI 5 Dinosaurs I was able to win but without changing the random Ultra funds/large armies selection it might be impossible until patch.

[gathomas88]

snip

Cool, man. Thanks for giving it a shot for me.

Out of curiosity, how did you arrange your infantry in the battle that you were able to win? Granted, this was with large armies enabled, but I I tried to somewhat mimic your tactics by streamlining my unit selection (just going for broke with great swords and demi griffs, rather than messing around with lesser inf or cav types), and massing my gunners on the wings, However, the gunners always seem to get bum rushed before they can make much difference. Likewise, the dinos (the Carns, at least) always seem to be integrated in with the mass of the Temple Guards, which makes it basically suicide for the Demi Griffs to try and engage them.

[Ichon]

On that battle map between the trees and large rock is a good line- I put the halberdiers in deep ranks in the front with a couple Greatswords behind and the other Greatswords on the flanks. I use the Light Mage and Demis to provoke the AI into pursuing the Demis towards my lines where a couple Handgunners are set out in front a ways to hit the Carnosaurs (which is what the AI normally send along with some Cold Ones) then retreat them fast. The Light Mage getting a good Net is really important on that initial charge where I was able to trap 3 Dinosaurs and 2 Cold Ones. The Demis with Handgunner support were able to kill 1 Carnosaur, rout 1, and nearly kill 1 Cold Ones before the Temple Guards and rest of the Lizardmen caught up. Then run away and let the Lizards assault the main line- move the Handgunners further back nearly to the edge of their range while keeping track of the Cold Ones which the AI nearly always sends wide flank, if Krok-Gar also goes on a wide flank that is the best though sometimes requires bait like the Light Mage or a single Handgunner.

The Cold Ones die fairly fast to the Demis but sometimes it is better to send the Greatswords in support while leaving only 1 Demi in that fight and sending the rest of the Demi after Krok-Gar or behind the front line to jump on the Dino that break thru- all the large Dino eventually break thru but spend most of the Handgunners fire on the Dino with smallest HP pool to remove threats fastest. The main issue is with 12 Dinosaurs I can rout 4-5 of them in the first 2 minutes of the battle but meanwhile the other 7 have nearly free reign and rout 1/3 of the army and then I can make 2-3 of those 7 rout... just as the 4-5 that routed earlier return to the battle. Each time the routed return to battle they are minus another 20% HP but my army is down 25% so after 3-4 cycles of this it is gg. It also doesn't help that Empire has NO melee fighter that can take Krok-Gar on Grymloq. Karl Franze with 2 Captains combined couldn't do it. Demigryphs can though. Eventually when the Dinosaurs are routed/dead then move the Handgunners to the flanks of the Templeguard which are now fighting the few remaining Empire infantry (half have routed and returned once already).

I could probably win a battle vs 6-7 Dinosaurs but 8 or more with another 10 Templeguards and Saurus Warriors I don't think Empire can dish out damage quickly enough nor hold the lines. I actually loaded this battle with High Elves and lost the first time- when I took out the Blessed Spawns was able to win just barely but it is hard and relies mostly on Swordmasters carving up Templeguard but High Elves vs that many Dinosaurs even with races balanced around the Vortex is a tough battle. Skaven and Dark Elves with all their AP options and other stuff should be able to win more easily.

Also with large armies, the Mages are much less useful as the magic reserves run out before the battle is half over and are pretty useless afterwards. Loremaster of Hoeth and Plague Priests for Skaven can cast and are capable melee fighters so help even after spells are gone.

EDIT- also should point out that in order to make battles last a bit longer CA has increased HP and some other stats across the board in the Vortex. Empire with faction unlocker doesn't add this extra balance stats and so is underpowered for now. Mortal Empires release in a few days is supposed to have all the races on the same balance so try this battle again then.

[jahjeremy]

Alright, so here's a fairly typical line up, as far as I've been seeing. etc.

How do you perform in smaller battles against the AI?

I'm just asking because I find it really hard to control armies of the size that you've described, and usually in campaigns I will just auto-resolve if I have the advantage when the battles are this big. It is just too difficult to control all the units without having to pause constantly, or some of your units that you're not paying attention to get killed/routed quickly. It isn't really that fun for me. I prefer 20v20 or maybe a few more than that but beyond that it gets really unmanageable.

And honestly I have found the Lizardmen to be borderline overpowered against the other factions. Their units typically have such a ridiculous amount of armor that your frontline can't hang with them, and their monsters make a mess of your frontlines and archers. I've really only found numbers to work well, along with armor-piercing, anti-large and armor debuff spells. But it can be really challenging to actually field an army that can handle them!