General help with obscure english expressions, thread :)

[Condottiere 40K]

Maybe sandwich men, assuming the sandwich board advertizing had been invented then.

[Kyriakos]

Anyone know if at the 1840s the term "grossest" would have any secondary meaning, similar to one of its current known meanings as 'nasty' or 'evil' etc?
I have no doubt about the term having had the main meaning of 'having more volume", and that Poe uses it as such, but it would be good to know if any secondary meaning, particularly of evil or nasty, or despicable etc, would be there already in the mid 19th century, since in that case Poe would be making indirect use of that as well.


And that about settles this story too.

[Frunk]

Can you give us the sentence/context?

I think it would be more likely to mean "the worst" or "more extreme", as in gross negligence.

[Kyriakos]

Context (not that it isn't ambiguous, but it seems evident that Poe meant it to connote officially (larger) volume, and unofficially (but only if it had that meaning already in the 1840s, which i sort of doubt...) wickedness or similar:

"The old man," I said at length, "is the type and the genius of deep crime. He refuses to be alone. He is the man of the crowd. It will be in vain to follow, for I shall learn no more of him, nor of his deeds. The worst heart of the world is a grosser book than the 'Hortulus Animae,'* and perhaps it is but one of the great mercies of God that "er lasst sich nicht lesen."


* The "Hortulus Animae cum Oratiunculis Aliquibus Superadditis" of Grunninger.

In essence he seems to mean that the worst heart is something larger than the relatively anodyne -albeit still unreadable as noted in the german quote in the text- prayer-book; the Hortulus Animae, which literally means 'little garden' (of the soul), and thus has little volume.

Thus for this really my only question is if in the 1840s the term would also have that other meaning; it isn't likely that the first one (larger) isn't the one officially used by Poe, but he might have the other in mind too if it existed.

[Kyriakos]

Final question (end of the Poe stories...)

No sooner had I spoken these words, than I felt an icy chill creep to my heart. I had had some experience in these fits of perversity, (whose nature I have been at some trouble to explain), and I remembered well that in no instance I had successfully resisted their attacks.

Does "been at trouble to" mean "i found it difficult" or "i went into the trouble to"? (the latter would also make sense in context).

[Frunk]

Simply put, the latter.

[Kyriakos]

^Ty

[Kyriakos]

New obscurities. This time from Washington Irving's nice short story, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow

The fireflies, too, which sparkled most vividly in the darkest places, now and then startled him, as one of uncommon brightness would stream across his path; and if, by chance, a huge blockhead of a beetle came winging his blundering flight against him, the poor varlet was ready to give up the ghost, with the idea that he was struck with a witch’s token. His only resource on such occasions, either to drown thought or drive away evil spirits, was to sing psalm tunes and the good people of Sleepy Hollow, as they sat by their doors of an evening, were often filled with awe at hearing his nasal melody, “in linked sweetness long drawn out,” floating from the distant hill, or along the dusky road.

a) a witch's token is just a sign that a witch is there/acts? (obviously the bug; i am wondering if token just means sign, instead of -eg- minion or similar)
b) "in linked sweetness long drawn out"΄anyone know if this lyric is from Handel? (http://opera.stanford.edu/iu/libretti/allegro.htm)

L'Allegro (soprano)
And ever against eating cares,
Lap me in soft Lydian airs
Married to immortal verse,
Such as the meeting soul may pierce
In notes, with many a winding bout
Of linked sweetness long drawn out;
With wanton heed, and giddy cunning,
The melting voice through mazes running,
Untwisting all the chains that tie
The hidden soul of harmony.

or if it is alluding to some other source? (says 'of' instead of 'in', but it is a translation anyway; wondering if some other text would have it and be popular enough for Irving to allude to)


c) varlet seems to have two distinct meanings: small-time conman, and servant/attending person. I suppose the first is more true to context, though Crane is somewhat of a servant by profession (and needed attitude) as well.

[AqD]

Am I the only one here expecting to find obscure American terms instead of British ones?? Why did they have to write like that? Upper-class expression?

[Kyriakos]

Imo Irving writes very well. Not as flowery as Poe, but he is quite elegant and a bit humorous too

[sumskilz]

In the same way that villein (a peasant tenet) came to be villain, a varlet was sometimes used colloquially to indicate a rogue or rascal, in both cases invalorousness being associated with lower class. But poor varlet isn't meant to indicate literal roguishness in this case, but is used similarly to the poor devil, someone to be pitied.

A token, a thing serving as a visible or tangible representation of a fact, quality, or feeling. What better presentation that a witch is at work than a beetle which magically glows in the dark.

The lyric itself is Milton, but I think you identified the reference correctly. Regarding the variation, it's not the only place it occurred, maybe the poem mentioned on page 298 of this dissertation (PDF) was from a folk song of the time:

In linked sweetness, long drawn out;
I thought to myself, if it were not a sin,
I could teach her the prettiest trick in the world:
For oft as we mingled our legs & our feet
I felt a pulsation & cannot tell whether
In hers or in mine—but I know it was sweet
And I think we both felt it & trembled together.

It kind of fits the character.

[Kyriakos]

^Thanks, very cool info

[Kyriakos]

Ok, given now we move to the part where the girl enters:

She wore the ornaments of pure yellow gold, which her great-great-grandmother had brought over from Saardam; the tempting stomacher of the olden time, and withal a provokingly short petticoat, to display the prettiest foot and ankle in the country round.

A question: is the stomacher (part of a corset) actually made of gold? I am confused by the sentence structure; it seems to be made of gold, and not just be golden-coloured. Maybe someone knows if that part could have a layer of gold?


Also : Was Saardam (apparently this is Zaandam) known for anything in particular? Irving places the story in 1800. So i suppose it would be up to the early 1700s, when (as i read) Peter the Great seems to have visited. Is it having sea access? A naval industry?
But if you just answer the corset question i'd be more than happy ^_^

[♔atthias♔]

Ok, given now we move to the part where the girl enters:





A question: is the stomacher (part of a corset) actually made of gold? I am confused by the sentence structure; it seems to be made of gold, and not just be golden-coloured. Maybe someone knows if that part could have a layer of gold?


Also : Was Saardam (apparently this is Zaandam) known for anything in particular? Irving places the story in 1800. So i suppose it would be up to the early 1700s, when (as i read) Peter the Great seems to have visited. Is it having sea access? A naval industry?
But if you just answer the corset question i'd be more than happy ^_^

yeah it had sea acces and a big naval industry back then even catching whales

[Kyriakos]

^Thank you

[Kyriakos]

Moving on to food... Ok, i spared you of the largest part, but i want to ask what "quarter" means in this case. I suspect (but am not sure) it means the (either literal) 1/4 of the food share (the rooster dag out in some earlier passage) or a generally large/important share in the food

In the porkers he saw carved out the future sleek side of bacon, and juicy relishing ham; not a turkey but he beheld daintily trussed up, with its gizzard under its wing, and, peradventure, a necklace of savory sausages; and even bright chanticleer himself lay sprawling on his back, in a side dish, with uplifted claws, as if craving that quarter which his chivalrous spirit disdained to ask while living.

Edit: or is it about dueling quarter?

[Morifea]

What do you mean with "dueling quarter"?

In the text it`s about the quarter that you give to a defeated foe.
The Chanticleer is a big, proud and fierce cock. While alive, he didn`t accept defeat, but now he lies on his back and raises his claw as if he is pleading to be spared.

[Kyriakos]

Well, yes, like the defeated person in a duel would.

[Kyriakos]

Hm, does anyone know of some international name (not the latin taxonomy name; i found that easily) for the plant "supple-jack"? Eg maybe an (british) english or french name for the plant (assuming it exists there) might link to some greek term.
If i am not able to find any name for it in greek (not unlikely) i will just describe it in the text, and present info in a footnote

[Kyriakos]

Just a fragment of a question now

Apparently there had been some appalling act of justice recently inflicted, for his scholars were all busily intent upon their books, or slyly whispering behind them with one eye kept upon the master; and a kind of buzzing stillness reigned throughout the schoolroom. It was suddenly interrupted by the appearance of a negro in tow-cloth jacket and trowsers, a round-crowned fragment of a hat, like the cap of Mercury, and mounted on the back of a ragged, wild, half-broken colt, which he managed with a rope by way of halter.

I suppose that Irving means that the hat was partly ruined? He does make a parallel with the 'petasos'* ancient greek hat, used by Mercury (after all this black person was also a messenger of a god; and to be precise a messenger of "Hercules"; Brom Bones, the antagonist to Ichabod).

* A petasos; this hat was usually worn by workers on the land (when it was very sunny), or warriors. And also by Hermes.