Did they ever fix horse archers?

[Basil II the B.S]

So, I'm giving this game a shot, went for a Parthian campaign, first battle.. let's say the performance of horse archers didn't leave me extatic.

I looked online, lots of posts saying they suck.

I can pass on the low damage, however:
-skirmish doesn't seem to work properly... and I noticed
-they seem to forget to shoot on occasions
-they get routed by anything in melee (which granted isn't their primary function, but it's their way to counter missile infantry)

So, my question is, were they ever improved (meaning they sucked even more) or were they always like this?

[Alwyn]

I'm surprised that a lot of people said that horse archers suck. I see them differently. I love playing as Cimmeria and using horse archers.

You're right that we cannot rely on the automatic skirmish function. Horse archers require a fair amount of micro-managing to be effective.

As you said, horse archers (the ordinary, unarmoured horse archers) aren't designed to counter missile infantry. They will lose in a ranged fight with missile infantry (because there are fewer of them) and they won't do well in a melee fight - they're skirmishers, not brawlers.

Countering missile infantry isn't just not their primary function - it is not their job at all - just as countering spear infantry is not the job of melee cavalry (unless you have nothing else available). As I see it, missile infantry are probably the best counter for horse archers, especially when combined with spearmen.

When carefully managed, horse archers are good at:-
- Scouting ahead and killing enemy scouts or melee cavalry from a distance (most melee cavalry cannot catch horse archers unless the horse archers are tired. Even if they don't kill many enemies, if your cheap horse archers keep expensive heavy cavalry away from your other units for long enough, this could tilt the battle in your favour)
- Disrupting enemy formations; they can ride behind the enemy's main line, shooting valuable units in the back and causing units to move to try and intercept them
- Using their speed to suddenly provide additional ranged firepower at a specific location

Armoured horse archers are decent in melee and can run down missile infantry, no problem.

[Basil II the B.S]

As you said, horse archers (the ordinary, unarmoured horse archers) aren't designed to counter missile infantry. They will lose in a ranged fight with missile infantry (because there are fewer of them) and they won't do well in a melee fight - they're skirmishers, not brawlers.

That is true but it is also true for the missile infantry. The fact that the lightest of infantry skirmishers beats a charging missile cavalry is bizarre.

Countering missile infantry isn't just not their primary function - it is not their job at all - just as countering spear infantry is not the job of melee cavalry (unless you have nothing else available). As I see it, missile infantry are probably the best counter for horse archers, especially when combined with spearmen.

In range fights, missile infantry has always been the counter to horse arghers. This is why horse archer can have a way to fight back by charging, now they don't anymore.

When carefully managed, horse archers are good at:-
- Scouting ahead and killing enemy scouts or melee cavalry from a distance (most melee cavalry cannot catch horse archers unless the horse archers are tired. Even if they don't kill many enemies, if your cheap horse archers keep expensive heavy cavalry away from your other units for long enough, this could tilt the battle in your favour)
- Disrupting enemy formations; they can ride behind the enemy's main line, shooting valuable units in the back and causing units to move to try and intercept them
- Using their speed to suddenly provide additional ranged firepower at a specific location

Armoured horse archers are decent in melee and can run down missile infantry, no problem.

They lost their primary historical function and strength, which is hit an run tactics.

A major part of the flawed mechanism is that they somehow have to turn their horses forward if you order them to shoot. That kills the whole point of the ''parthian shot'', the mounted archer turning around and shooting while the horse evading the target.

[Alwyn]

That is true but it is also true for the missile infantry. The fact that the lightest of infantry skirmishers beats a charging missile cavalry is bizarre.

Is it a fact that the 'lightest of infantry skirmishers beats a charging missile cavalry'? I tried three quick tests using custom battles. In all three, I played as Parthia with two Parthian Horse Archers; I gave my opponent two infantry archers. My general was super-heavy shock cavalry and my opponent's general was heavy spearmen (so that I could charge my general into theirs, preventing either general from having an effect on the engagement between the horse archers and the missile infantry). In all three battles, I charged each horse archer into the flanks of one missile infantry unit.

In the first battle, playing against Armenia, my horse archers decisively defeated the Eastern Archers. (I know that Eastern Archers are far from the most powerful archers, but Parthian Horse Archers are far from the most powerful horse archers available to Parthia - they can use both Armoured Horse Archers and Noble Horse Archers).



In the second battle, playing against Cimmeria, my horse archers were massacred by Cimmerian Heavy Archers. In the third battle, playing against Athens, my horse archers easily defeated the enemy Archers.

Based on these tests and on using horse archers in Cimmerian campaigns, my experience is different from yours. In my games, the lightest of infantry skirmishers don't beat charging missile cavalry. There could be lots of reasons why our experiences are different. You could be playing on a higher difficulty level (I'm playing on Normal, so that seems quite likely). Your horse archers could have been tired, slowed by terrain (forest or hill), have already taken casualties or be taking casualties from another unit of enemy missile infantry. The enemy skirmishers might have had experience, been led by a great general or have been in an army with military traditions or better equipment. I like the fact that the combination of factors such as those can affect the outcome of a fight.

Is it 'bizarre' for missile infantry to lose to horse archers? Unarmoured (or lightly armoured) horse archers aren't medieval knights or the riders of Rohan. As I see it, they are good bowmen and good riders on hardy ponies. (The bigger horses would have been ridden by cavalry wearing armour.) Riding a pony into missile infantry would give you some advantage in the initial charge, but after that you are surrounded by a crowd of enemies.

If we want horse archers who can act like Attila's hordes, we can recruit a mix of Noble Horse Archers and Armoured Horse Archers. That makes sense to me: Rome II starts in the 3rd century BC, centuries before Attila's time. In my mind, these ordinary horse archers represent 'early' horse archers. By Attila's time, I imagine that such units would be used for scouting (where they are still useful: horse archers can defeat horse skirmishers with javelins and light melee cavalry in my games and if they discover lightly armoured guerrilla-deployed units, their arrows can destroy them).

In range fights, missile infantry has always been the counter to horse arghers. This is why horse archer can have a way to fight back by charging, now they don't anymore.

We agree that missile infantry have always been the counter for horse archers.

In my experience, it's not as simple 'horse archers can't win by charging'. Sometimes horse archers can charge and win. There are limitations to this. If we have run our horse archers around the battlefield and they're tired, then they'll be weaker in melee. If we charge them into heavy archers (bowmen in armour, carrying spears), they'll lose. If one horse archer charges several missile infantry units and they scatter in different directions, then our horse archers will struggle to defeat a unit of skirmishers in melee because the other missile infantry will be shooting the horse archers in the back.

Even when horse archers cannot win by charging, the Parthian unit roster offers players other ways to defeat missile infantry. For me, infantry skirmishers, melee cavalry and shock cavalry are the main counters for enemy missile infantry. Parthia offers all three of those counters - as Parthia, we can recruit three types of infantry archers, three kinds of melee cavalry and three kinds of shock cavalry.

They lost their primary historical function and strength, which is hit an run tactics.

As I see it, charging behind the enemy, firing a few volleys of arrows and then retreating to safety (to rest your horses before repeating this) is exactly the 'hit and run' tactic which I would use light horse archers to use.

A major part of the flawed mechanism is that they somehow have to turn their horses forward if you order them to shoot. That kills the whole point of the ''parthian shot'', the mounted archer turning around and shooting while the horse evading the target.

Again, our experiences are different. In my test battles, I saw Parthian Horse Archers using Parthian shot (firing behind without turning their horses to face the target):

[Basil II the B.S]

I play on VH so that explains the difference.

As I see it, charging behind the enemy, firing a few volleys of arrows and then retreating to safety (to rest your horses before repeating this) is exactly the 'hit and run' tactic which I would use light horse archers to use.

You don't' need to go behind the enemy to do that. It can and often was done from the flanks or even frontally, for the purpose of luring enemies out of formation ad pick them apart.

EG, in Medieval 2 the historical battle of Tannenberg specifically required you to lure Teutonic Knights away using Lithuanian horse archers so that your infantry could pick apart the main body. If you try that in Rome 2, your horse archers would get slaughtered and you'd lose the battle.

Again, our experiences are different. In my test battles, I saw Parthian Horse Archers using Parthian shot (firing behind without turning their horses to face the target):

Oh that happens if you let them pick their target automatically However, if you pick a target and order to shoot, they will redirect their horses towards the target even if they don't need to because it's in the range; which takes a few seconds away once they have to run because they need to re-direct horses away when the ''run'' part starts.

It's a devilish detail that can result in your horse archers getting caught and something that didn't happen in previous games anyway (talking about RTW and Med2).

[Alwyn]

Yes, if you play on Very Hard you'll see different results. I don't blame the game designers, if battles are difficult on the Very Hard difficulty setting. That is why I use a More Aggressive AI mod for more challenging campaigns, rather than a higher difficulty level. I prefer to play against more aggressive AI factions (more likely to declare war, more likely to send armies to attack) with this mod, rather than play against 'buffed' enemy units on Very Hard. Of course, you could be a far more skilled player than I am, which could mean that you prefer a harder challenge.

You are right, of course, horse archers don't need to go behind the enemy. After I posted that, I was thinking the same thing - 'but it would be almost as effective to hit them from the flanks, especially from the right (unshielded) side)'.

Oh, I see, you are saying that it's different if you tell the horse archers which unit to shoot at. I can see how those extra few seconds might be crucial, if you are playing on Very Hard.

[Basil II the B.S]

It is particularly frustrating because trying to lure the heavy cavalry was a rather important maneuver for me. Now if I try that, and the AI charges immediately, which on paper is part of my plan, I risk that the horse archer unit doesn't turn fast enough, 3-4 guys of the unit get caught in melee and the rest of the units that was running away engages and gets destroyed.

So instead of luring the enemy heavy cavalry away from the main body, surrounded them with my own and slaughter them, I just lose my horse archers.

I assume you haven't played the original Rome, but it worked just fine in that one. New games should be a step forward, not backward.


You what rustles me the most?

In Rome 1, considering Barbarian invasions too, the skirmishing mode worked great. However, the Eastern side of the campaign map was mostly cut off so it'd turn off a bit playing Parthia or the Sassanids because you never felt the ''full experience'' and those are the main horse archer factions along with the Huns.

In Rome 2, they did a great work adding the Iranian area, however you don't get to experience the power of horse archer tactics in its might.

Now I have to wait for Rome 3 if ever.

[Alwyn]

I see - yes, you definitely don't want to get your horse archers caught by heavy cavalry! As before, our experiences are different. In my Cimmeria campaigns, my main problem with horse archers is running out of arrows or fire from foot skirmishers, not heavy cavalry. Of course (as well as playing on a lower difficult level) Cimmeria is probably easier than Parthia. Cimmeria's hoplites can hold the line for a long time, they don't usually need micro-managing and will protect foot archers behind them (which can usually kill the enemy infantry skimishers). This leaves me free to 'micro' my horse archers as they shoot and run.

As I see it, horse archers can be a lot of fun to use, their speed and agility can surprise me. For example, when playing a test battle, I ordered horse archers to change direction to avoid running into the enemy general. Because of this, they accidentally avoided a volley of arrows from missile infantry, which was nice to see. (I'm going to see if I can avoid volleys from skirmish infantry intentionally rather than accidentally in future.)

I can also see how it's annoying not to be able to use a move which you liked in Rome Total War. On the other hand, it sounds like you are expecting a lot from cheap horse archers on Very Hard difficulty. You want them to beat missile infantry in melee and to lure heavy cavalry and escape while shooting at their pursuers. I can see how it would be hard for horse archers to shoot at cavalry who were charging from behind, while - at the same time - riding quickly enough to escape. The faster you ride, the more you have to balance and hold your reins to avoid falling; however if you're shooting at a target behind you, then your body is twisted around (so you are less well-balanced) and your hands are on your bow, not the reins.

As I see it, you have some options. You can use horse archers to lure heavy cavalry and escape, if you avoid telling horse archers which unit to shoot at. If the heavy cavalry keep pursuing your horse archers, presumably the horse archers will start shooting at the heavy cavalry eventually even without an order from the player, because nothing else will be in range. Alternatively, sometimes combinations of units work well. Could you lure the enemy heavy cavalry with horse archers and then smash them with your own heavy or shock cavalry? Another option would be to use Armoured Horse Archers or even Noble Horse Archers.

Yes, I played the original Rome and I enjoyed it a lot, just as I enjoy Rome II. While I know that preferring Rome to Rome II is a popular opinion here, my view is different. For me, Rome II is a step forward.

[Basil II the B.S]

I can also see how it's annoying not to be able to use a move which you liked in Rome Total War. On the other hand, it sounds like you are expecting a lot from cheap horse archers on Very Hard difficulty. You want them to beat missile infantry in melee and to lure heavy cavalry and escape while shooting at their pursuers. I can see how it would be hard for horse archers to shoot at cavalry who were charging from behind, while - at the same time - riding quickly enough to escape. The faster you ride, the more you have to balance and hold your reins to avoid falling; however if you're shooting at a target behind you, then your body is twisted around (so you are less well-balanced) and your hands are on your bow, not the reins.

They are supposed to twist their body while the horse runs in the opposite direction and the archer does not hold the reins. That is the ''parthian shot''. Shoot while fleeing. I'm expecting something they historically did.

As I see it, you have some options. You can use horse archers to lure heavy cavalry and escape, if you avoid telling horse archers which unit to shoot at. If the heavy cavalry keep pursuing your horse archers, presumably the horse archers will start shooting at the heavy cavalry eventually even without an order from the player, because nothing else will be in range.

That is begging that the autofire targets the heavy cavalry, rather casual and limitative, but yes it's the only way.

Alternatively, sometimes combinations of units work well. Could you lure the enemy heavy cavalry with horse archers and then smash them with your own heavy or shock cavalry? Another option would be to use Armoured Horse Archers or even Noble Horse Archers.

Yes, I played the original Rome and I enjoyed it a lot, just as I enjoy Rome II. While I know that preferring Rome to Rome II is a popular opinion here, my view is different. For me, Rome II is a step forward.

Super heavy cavalry is also incredibly mediocre in this game too but that's for another story. They are simply too slow and before they even make it to somewhere, they get slaughtered (again) by missile infantry as if the armor the slows them down doesn't count.

[Alwyn]

That's a good picture! I wouldn't want to be chasing that horse archer!

Yes, I know what a Parthian shot is, I've seen my horse archers doing it. My issue is partly that you seem to expect low-tier horse archers to be able to beat both missile infantry in melee and heavy cavalry through evasion and ranged fire on Very Hard difficulty. That seems to be asking a lot from a cheap, early-period unit.

It's also about whether a pony whose rider was shooting at a target directly behind him would be able to outrun heavy cavalry who don't have that disadvantage. Admittedly, the heavy cav would be slowed by the weight of armour, however wouldn't the army give their bigger horses to the heavy cavalry? Just as eleven-times world champion Usain Bolt is tall at 1.95 metres, the longer legs of the bigger horses might enable them to run faster over a significant distance. Of course, in the game the horse archers will outrun heavy cavalry as long as they run (unless they are unlucky or very tired). Also, I know that the issue is more about control of your units - you want to be able to order horse archers to run forward and to shoot at a specific target (the unit pursuing them). That sounds like a reasonable criticism of the game to me.

You're right, my first option relies on the auto-fire targeting the heavy cavalry. If this happens on the flank of the main engagement, I wonder how long it takes for horse archers (pursued by cavalry) run far enough that they are beyond the range of any enemy but their pursuer? (Of course, this depends on the direction they run in). My thinking is that, even if the auto-fire targets another unit, you might just lose that one volley - and that volley will be targeted at an enemy unit (admittedly, it might cause 'friendly fire' if the other enemy unit is in melee with one of yours, as you said earlier.) For example, in a tournament battle between Parthia and Rome, Maximus Decimus Meridius (playing Rome, and commenting in the video) pursues Noble Horse Archers with Legionary Cavalry at 3:20. About three seconds later, the Noble Horse Archers fire a volley at some Roman infantry, not their pursuers. However, if you watch the Noble Horse Archers carefully at 3:30, they fire at the cavalry pursing them.

I don't think this is the 'only way' for Parthia to deal with heavy cavalry - I suggested other options. You could lure the heavy cavalry with horse archers and then charge your heavy cavalry or shock cavalry into the enemy. You could use Armoured Horse Archers or Noble Horse Archers, who are better in melee than low-tier horse archers (if the horse archer in your picture shows how you imagine horse archers, then surely you're imagining one of those types - low-tier horse archers wear cloth, not metal armour).

I'm surprised by your view that super-heavy cavalry are "incredibly mediocre". In my test battles, I charged my super-heavy Parthian shock cav into the enemy's spear infantry general, expecting to lose every time. (I'm used to the kind of melee cavalry which Cimmeria and the Iceni use, which will die if charged into spear infantry). I was surprised by how well the Parthian cavalry did - they defeated Armenian Noble Spearmen, for example.

If your super heavy cavalry are being cut down by missile infantry, then Parthia has options. You have plenty of types of missile infantry and melee cavalry, either of which can eliminate enemy skirmishers. For example, you could keep your super heavy cavalry at the back of your line, in reserve, until the enemy missile infantry have been removed. If charging cavalry into the enemy skirmishers is a problem because they are protected by spearmen, you could feint-charge, or use your missile infantry instead, or release mercenary war dogs to push the enemy skirmishers back. Ultimately, there's always the option of not playing on Very Hard.

[Basil II the B.S]

That's a good picture! I wouldn't want to be chasing that horse archer!

Yes, I know what a Parthian shot is, I've seen my horse archers doing it. My issue is partly that you seem to expect low-tier horse archers to be able to beat both missile infantry in melee and heavy cavalry through evasion and ranged fire on Very Hard difficulty. That seems to be asking a lot from a cheap, early-period unit.

I can pick the best mounted archer unit in the game, the problem is the exact same. That bizarre behaviour of having to turn horses forward if I give them a target.

It makes no difference. If they were gradually improving and the problem disappeared, I wouldn't be here complaining.

It's also about whether a pony whose rider was shooting at a target directly behind him would be able to outrun heavy cavalry who don't have that disadvantage. Admittedly, the heavy cav would be slowed by the weight of armour, however wouldn't the army give their bigger horses to the heavy cavalry? Just as eleven-times world champion Usain Bolt is tall at 1.95 metres, the longer legs of the bigger horses might enable them to run faster over a significant distance. Of course, in the game the horse archers will outrun heavy cavalry as long as they run (unless they are unlucky or very tired). Also, I know that the issue is more about control of your units - you want to be able to order horse archers to run forward and to shoot at a specific target (the unit pursuing them). That sounds like a reasonable criticism of the game to me.

You're right, my first option relies on the auto-fire targeting the heavy cavalry. If this happens on the flank of the main engagement, I wonder how long it takes for horse archers (pursued by cavalry) run far enough that they are beyond the range of any enemy but their pursuer? (Of course, this depends on the direction they run in). My thinking is that, even if the auto-fire targets another unit, you might just lose that one volley - and that volley will be targeted at an enemy unit (admittedly, it might cause 'friendly fire' if the other enemy unit is in melee with one of yours, as you said earlier.) For example, in a tournament battle between Parthia and Rome, Maximus Decimus Meridius (playing Rome, and commenting in the video) pursues Noble Horse Archers with Legionary Cavalry at 3:20. About three seconds later, the Noble Horse Archers fire a volley at some Roman infantry, not their pursuers. However, if you watch the Noble Horse Archers carefully at 3:30, they fire at the cavalry pursing them.

I don't think this is the 'only way' for Parthia to deal with heavy cavalry - I suggested other options. You could lure the heavy cavalry with horse archers and then charge your heavy cavalry or shock cavalry into the enemy. You could use Armoured Horse Archers or Noble Horse Archers, who are better in melee than low-tier horse archers (if the horse archer in your picture shows how you imagine horse archers, then surely you're imagining one of those types - low-tier horse archers wear cloth, not metal armour).

I'm surprised by your view that super-heavy cavalry are "incredibly mediocre". In my test battles, I charged my super-heavy Parthian shock cav into the enemy's spear infantry general, expecting to lose every time. (I'm used to the kind of melee cavalry which Cimmeria and the Iceni use, which will die if charged into spear infantry). I was surprised by how well the Parthian cavalry did - they defeated Armenian Noble Spearmen, for example.

Depends on how you make the test.

If you make the test where there are only two units, then it's indicative on how those two fight against each other. In a battle there are 38 more units or even more.
In that context, it performs poorly. It is too slow to make any difference and ends up slaughtered by missile units as if its heavy armour does not matter.

If your super heavy cavalry are being cut down by missile infantry, then Parthia has options. You have plenty of types of missile infantry and melee cavalry, either of which can eliminate enemy skirmishers. For example, you could keep your super heavy cavalry at the back of your line, in reserve, until the enemy missile infantry have been removed. If charging cavalry into the enemy skirmishers is a problem because they are protected by spearmen, you could feint-charge, or use your missile infantry instead, or release mercenary war dogs to push thse enemy skirmishers back. Ultimately, there's always the option of not playing on Very Hard.

Most suffer from the same problems. The units that perform well are heavy infantry/phalanx, archers and the normal heavy cavalry. Something Parthia and many Eastern factions do not excel at.

[Alwyn]

I can pick the best mounted archer unit in the game, the problem is the exact same. That bizarre behaviour of having to turn horses forward if I give them a target.

You are right, Armoured Horse Archers and Noble Horse Archers still turn around when fleeing pursuing cavalry and when ordered to shoot at those cavalry. However, my point was not that they behave differently. My point was that their better armour and melee statistics mean that you have another way to deal with pursuing cavalry. You can put these horse archers into melee mode and charge them into the enemy cavalry. In the video which I linked to, Noble Horse Archers are shattered by Legionary Cavalry after they were charged from behind in a downhill charge. If, instead of fleeing downhill, the Noble Horse Archers had charged into melee, then the fight would have been more even. This tactic works better if you add some melee cavalry to your horse archers to reinforce them - again, Rome II rewards using combinations of units. This might well not work on Very Hard, which is another reason why I don't play on that difficulty level - it seems like a reasonable tactic to me.

Depends on how you make the test.

If you make the test where there are only two units, then it's indicative on how those two fight against each other. In a battle there are 38 more units or even more.
In that context, it performs poorly. It is too slow to make any difference and ends up slaughtered by missile units as if its heavy armour does not matter.

You're right, it depends on how you set up the test. You're also right that super-heavy cavalry are slow, so it is challenging to use them effectively. Their effectiveness depends, in part, on when and how you engage your super-heavy cavalry. I imagine using them like elephants or chariots. Hold them in reserve and on a flank, while your skirmishers (or cavalry) destroy the enemy skirmishers. When the main lines of melee infantry engage each other, move up your super-heavy cavalry and run them along the enemy infantry line (either straight along the line, or by rear-charging one infantry unit, then the next, and so on). As well as rewarding players for using combinations of units, Rome II rewards players for planning when to use your units.

Most suffer from the same problems. The units that perform well are heavy infantry/phalanx, archers and the normal heavy cavalry. Something Parthia and many Eastern factions do not excel at.

You're right that Parthia don't excel at heavy infantry - even their Parthian Swordsmen are only a match for the mid-tier infantry which some factions can use. If I played a campaign as Parthia, I can imagine using 'hammer and anvil' tactics, using different units at different stages:

- Early period: Eastern Spearmen, Hillmen, Eastern Slingers, Parthian Horse Archers and Camel Spearmen or Median Cavalry
- Middle period: Persian Hoplites, Hillmen and mercenary melee infantry, Persian Light Archers/Foot Archers, Armoured Horse Archers plus one or two Parthian Horse Archers as scouts and Median Cavalry or Eastern Cataphracts
- Late Period: Parthian Swordsmen and mercenary melee infantry, Elite Persian Archers, Armoured or Noble Horse Archers plus horse archer scouts and some Noble Blood Cavalry or Cataphracts.

I admit that these armies would be challenging to use. Both the skirmishers and the cavalry would need micro-managing and your infantry line would rarely be as strong as your opponent's main line. That's another reason why I wouldn't play a Parthian campaign on Very Hard - you're already playing a challenging faction, especially considering that they start with one region (compared to horse archer factions such as Armenia and Cimmeria, which have three regions at the start and more powerful infantry.) I'm surprised that you say that Parthia doesn't excel at archers when they have three kinds, including Elite Persian Archers. When I play as the Iceni, the only archers they can recruit in vanilla are mercenaries, their roster has no archers at all!

If you haven't done so already, you might want to watch commentaries like Maximus Decimus Meridius and Heir of Carthage (who won as Parthia against Epirus in this battle, won as Parthia against Armenia in this battle and won as Parthia against Macedon in this battle). I'm impressed the tactical skill of players like these and, for me, this shows how much the selection of units and tactics matters in Rome II.

[Basil II the B.S]

Slight update:

-javelin horsemen can be devastating against heavy cavalries; if you are able to lure them out, you can ''wave'' your javelin horses, by constantly redeploying them further away and avoid getting caught; once their javelins have killed 60% of the enemy units (they do, missile damage is massive in this game), you can go in for the melee and quick rout; indeed the key is turning off the awful skirmish mode and do it yourself.

I also watched your videos.

The guy who uses Macedon against Parthia makes the major mistake of overloading with his own cavalry and using only 4 units of spear/pikes. It's pretty dumb to give up your strength; infantry is really strong in this game.

Armenia is rather similar to Parthia in terms of roster, the author of the video admits it himself. His opponent leaves him the top of the hill and that costs him the battle.

The Epirus guy had a really good plan, so props to the Parthia guy. Indeed he targeted the rather weaker point, dogs and the limited amount of pikes. (Again why would you pick a Hellenistic faction if you don't want to use many pikes?). The Epirus guy also makes the major mistake of leaving on the skirmish mode for his archers, which disrupts his box deployment, makes them run off and get picked by Parthia's heavy cav.

Skirmishing mode does more damage than saving your units. You are better off redeploying manually.

[Alwyn]

Thanks for the update and the useful tip! I haven't used javelin cavalry much - I will try the 'waving' tactic which you suggested with javelin horsemen.

Both for javelin cavalry and other kinds of skirmishers, it sounds like turning off skirmish mode is normally a good idea.

If enemy missile infantry are a problem, would it make sense to use the tactic which Heir of Carthage used as Parthia against Epirus, sending units in to keep the enemy missile infantry moving so that they can't fire - and potentially to make them leave the protection of other enemy units?

In that video, I noticed that Heir used Median Cavalry to charge the enemy skirmishers when they leave the defensive box created by the Epirus player. You previously mentioned the problem of using super-heavy cavalry - they're too slow and their armour won't save them from repeated volleys from skirmishers. I see Median Cavalry as the best choice from the Parthian roster for charging skirmishers (of course, I could be wrong - you have much more experience of playing Parthia). I believe this because Median Cavalry are medium cavalry. As we discussed, light cavalry can struggle against missile infantry (their lack of armour makes them vulnerable to a volley; they can struggle in melee). Medium cavalry have good enough melee statistics to defeat skirmishers, they are faster than heavier horsemen and their medium (rather than light) weight class gives them more momentum (giving them more of a chance to knock down infantry). Median Cavalry have decent armour for a non-heavy cavalry unit, giving them a better chance to survive a volley.

I haven't used Median Cavalry much, but I have used Citizen Cavalry which (I believe) are similar. (I compared these two units on the Royal Military Academy Rome II web site, here, and they do look similar.) People who comment on tournaments on YouTube often criticise Citizen Cavalry. I can see where they are coming from - Citizen Cavalry tend to perform poorly against other cavalry or melee infantry. However, I wonder if the criticism slightly misses the point - that Citizen Cavalry are ideal for charging skirmishers. The only thing which medium cavalry lack, and which super-heavy cavalry have, is the ability to charge through braced spearmen to attack missile infantry.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Most greek cavalry (except Thessalians and heavy Hetairoi) are historical only used against skirmishers. So yes, Citizen Cavalry is a good skirmisher killer. Greek Light Cavalry also, but not frontally. I use them to hunt down single skirmisher units.

[Alwyn]

Thanks, Marcus_Iunius! My experience with Iceni Scout Riders is similar to yours with Greek Light Cavalry: a frontal attack is too dangerous, an attack from the flanks and rear usually works. Yes, attacking a single missile infantry unit with light cavalry works better than attacking several missile infantry units.

[Basil II the B.S]

Thanks for the update and the useful tip! I haven't used javelin cavalry much - I will try the 'waving' tactic which you suggested with javelin horsemen.

Both for javelin cavalry and other kinds of skirmishers, it sounds like turning off skirmish mode is normally a good idea.

I might make a video explaining the use, though as a general rule:

- when deploying, your main army must start far away from the 3-5 cavalry units; to stretch it as much as possible, I put my infantry (including missiles) and the general in a corner at the back of the deployment rectangle, while the cavalry goes in a corner opposite of that; eg infantry in the bottom left, cavalry in the bottom right;
this is necessary because the waving maneuver requires a lot of manual management, while you are doing that you won't have much time to check what your infantry is doing;
-if the enemy marches towards your cavalry, simply withdraw in a direction that gives you room; wait until they move towards your infantry;
-the main purpose of keeping the infantry behind is to have the time and space to harass the enemy army as they march towards them;
-pick an enemy flank, deploy your line of javelin cavalry behind them; if the enemy cavalry turns around, immediately redeploy a bit further away; if they give chase, keep redeploying slightly further way; this is the ''waving'' tactic;
-if their missile units turn around and fire back run away; otherwise...
-autofire will do the work, while it's annoying that you can't pick a target, javelins are so powerful that they will slaughter whatever unit they are targeting together, within seconds;

With their cavalry gone, their infantry will go face your own, while you can pick apart their missile units by mass charging them with your javelin horsemen that are probably close to having run out of javelins anyway. If your infantry lasts those few minutes while you remove their missiles, you are likely to win with relatively contained casualties.

If enemy missile infantry are a problem, would it make sense to use the tactic which Heir of Carthage used as Parthia against Epirus, sending units in to keep the enemy missile infantry moving so that they can't fire - and potentially to make them leave the protection of other enemy units?

It worked in that case because:
-Epirus was defending in a boxed formation, thus they were amassed all together; in most battles, they are spread and you are likely to have to chase them around;
-the Epirus player stupidly left the skirmish mode on; if he had not, the Median Cavalry would have disrupted at best 1-2 units, but by pushing through they are less than 20 out 60 men left; Epirus could have done two things:
-let one of his archer units engage in melee in finish off the Medians, while the rest of the archers keep firing at the approaching enemy
-use one of his mercenary Italian swordsmen to finish off the Medians, quickly redeploy the archers in a way that they could go back to shoot asap;

What he did was... nothing, sitting down comfortable in his position, that got disrupted by Medians triggering the skirsmish mode, unboxed and crashed.
It's an evidence that ''fortune favours the bold''. Heir of Carthage bravely sacrificed units for a specific purpose, disrupt the box, and fortune favoured him, because the skirmish mode of the archers broke the box and gave him the victory. If the other player had turned it off, Heir of Carthage would have lost.

In most battles however, archers aren't boxed all together, you'll have to chase them around. Sacrificing units that way is not something you can do all the time.

In that video, I noticed that Heir used Median Cavalry to charge the enemy skirmishers when they leave the defensive box created by the Epirus player. You previously mentioned the problem of using super-heavy cavalry - they're too slow and their armour won't save them from repeated volleys from skirmishers. I see Median Cavalry as the best choice from the Parthian roster for charging skirmishers (of course, I could be wrong - you have much more experience of playing Parthia). I believe this because Median Cavalry are medium cavalry. As we discussed, light cavalry can struggle against missile infantry (their lack of armour makes them vulnerable to a volley; they can struggle in melee). Medium cavalry have good enough melee statistics to defeat skirmishers, they are faster than heavier horsemen and their medium (rather than light) weight class gives them more momentum (giving them more of a chance to knock down infantry). Median Cavalry have decent armour for a non-heavy cavalry unit, giving them a better chance to survive a volley.

I haven't used Median Cavalry much, but I have used Citizen Cavalry which (I believe) are similar. (I compared these two units on the Royal Military Academy Rome II web site, here, and they do look similar.) People who comment on tournaments on YouTube often criticise Citizen Cavalry. I can see where they are coming from - Citizen Cavalry tend to perform poorly against other cavalry or melee infantry. However, I wonder if the criticism slightly misses the point - that Citizen Cavalry are ideal for charging skirmishers. The only thing which medium cavalry lack, and which super-heavy cavalry have, is the ability to charge through braced spearmen to attack missile infantry.

They are an alright unit. Good medium-heavy cavalry, good speed. However missiles are still extremely strong and accurate in this game against cavalry. The AI often has 6-8 missile unites and that on VH can be deadly. Online is a bit different as they don't have the morale bonus, I'm not sure if difficulty adds them damage.

[emcdunna]

Horse archers are very good. Parthia is one of my favorite faction's. I take 4 cataphracts (leave them far behind) and the rest horse archers.

How I beat any army that comes at me is race forward with the horse archers, shoot enemy cav to make them follow you, then fall back. Let the enemy cav chase you as you shoot them. With 16 units vs 4 or so cav, you win easily in a shootout. Then turn back. Horse archers can kill any amount of melee infantry as long as they have ammo, but you have to beware of precursors. Stay far off or precursors will slaughter you.

Enemy archers on foot can't fire and move. You can. Always be moving, towards then away from the enemy to force enemy infantry to run after you. Never stand still shooting when the enemy has archers left cuz then they can fire.

If you do this right, constantly running away and forcing enemy archers to move back into range, you can kill them all.

One additional thing: I use caraphracts to charge into stubborn or isolated units and wreck them fast. Often times the ai's army gets horribly disorganized (and exhausted) from chasing you, so once they're out of cav, the enemy infantry might spread out so much as to leave enemy light missile troops alone. Charge them. They're stupid skirmish mode will make them run away from you, so you can run them down like cattle (charge to the back even by horse archers is devastating).

Skirmish mode isn't very good. It only keeps your guys out of melee SOMETIMES and still let's enemies get within missile/precursor range. Don't get shot, ever. You can move shoot and they can't which is just insane.

This even works in sieges. I just use 16 or so horse archers to volley fire the crap out of anyone on their walls, or force the enemy to chase me into the open from a town.

You can also strategically attack enemies who are fortified, when they have allies, since you can race over and kill off the reinforcing troops while the enemy sits in its fort. Eventually they come out of the fort, disorganized.

Again: always kill cav first, they will chase you if you harass them. Next just whittle down infantry while always moving so that enemy archers never stay within range.

Plus, since enemy artillery is slow as snails, you can lure the entire enemy army away from artillery and then charge it with a unit or two.

I have only lost doing this 1 time when enemies brought 3 full stacks from multiple directions against me, meaning as I killed enemy units others replaced them from all around.

Always always always keep the enemy disorganized but together. Having enemies on all sides means you're trapped, better to withdraw at that point.

Btw: I don't like horse archers in any balanced army. Only having 2 - 5 units of them is almost useless. Sometimes I take just 1 unit so I can send it to get enemy cav to chase after it, then kill the enemy cav with my main force.

If you're trying to use horse archers with like 6 units in an army then that's just not going to work. It's not enough to kill pursuing cav and your main force is too slow to skirmish the whole game

I make half my armies be horse archers like that, to slaughter enemies (with almost zero casualties) in open field battles, and for sieges I get special siege armies, usually half heavy infantry, half foot archers (again, to shoot them all to death from the walls)

Assaulting walls manned by mostly full strength units is suicide

Btw skirmish mode can be exploited so easily. Feign a charge against skirmishers (especially when the enemy has a ton) with some units while others race around behind. The fleeing skirmishers are now behind their lines, but your cav is back there too, and can kill them, while their main line chases your feigned assault force.

Skirmish mode is really just something that should have been just coded for the ai to use internally, not an ability to turn on/off, because you often want your men to fall back sooner or in a different direction than skirmish mode does. I never have that on.