Pontus Campaign Help

[QuintusSertorius]

They represent institutions and customs that can't be wiped out overnight. In those two cases, we're talking about decades of demographic and political changes that moved away from the ideal. You can't represent that in the confines of the engine, only sudden destruction. So we leave them indestructible for lack of any alternative.

[Cultist]

Greetings, 2 quick questions about Pontos, i don't want to start another thread.
1) What government do you guys build in a town with a minor polis so greek culture?
Strategos ton Philon (Governor-General) or Strategiai (Pontic Administration) or Symmachia (Allied State)?
2) Does Stasis and the other unrest greek buildings affect Pontos?
Cheers!

[QuintusSertorius]

No, Stasis and Autonomia do not affect Pontos, because they are not Hellenistic Polities. So all the places concerned will have the "foreign" culture penalty to them just like any non-Hellenistic faction.

[Hellenikon]

They represent institutions and customs that can't be wiped out overnight. In those two cases, we're talking about decades of demographic and political changes that moved away from the ideal. You can't represent that in the confines of the engine, only sudden destruction. So we leave them indestructible for lack of any alternative.

In that case, i think it would make more sense if new poleis could not be created, but only existing ones upgraded. Because by the late game, there are poleis alll over the map, some in places where it makes little sense for them to be. Making poleis localised would highlight the importance of certain regions for hellenistic powers. However if this was changed, i think hellenistic colonies from level 2 onward should work like greek poleis, giving colony points.

[Ivir Baggins]

In that case, i think it would make more sense if new poleis could not be created, but only existing ones upgraded. Because by the late game, there are poleis alll over the map, some in places where it makes little sense for them to be. Making poleis localised would highlight the importance of certain regions for hellenistic powers. However if this was changed, i think hellenistic colonies from level 2 onward should work like greek poleis, giving colony points.

Forbidding their establishment entirely seems a bit much, but I can see the argument for polis upgrades also needing colony points. Would make Baktria a little unplayable (because they'd have to either spend that mission point on upgrading Baktra or conquering all the way to Seleukia) but would also trim down the amount of polis that pop up.

[QuintusSertorius]

In that case, i think it would make more sense if new poleis could not be created, but only existing ones upgraded. Because by the late game, there are poleis alll over the map, some in places where it makes little sense for them to be. Making poleis localised would highlight the importance of certain regions for hellenistic powers. However if this was changed, i think hellenistic colonies from level 2 onward should work like greek poleis, giving colony points.

No, that's why KH can't build new ones. They don't use regal/executive power to forcibly settling Greeks the way the other Hellenistic factions do. If we stop the AI being able to set up new ones (and they still require a minimum level of conversion and a factional government in order to do this, they can't literally put them anywhere), then you prevent Pontos being able to use some of its governments or indeed get access to all the recruitment intended. Since they can use, but not build, the polis.

Each Hellenistic faction is already coralled into a specific region of the map, we don't need to prevent the creation of new polis buildings as well. The business of culture change and how slow it is unless you're settling colonists, already reflects the major shifts required to change civic institutions.

[rhavviepoodle]

Since the destruction of poleis has already been brought up, I figured I'd ask a related question. Does enslaving a settlement downgrade (or wipe out) a polis? As the Nabateans, I managed to boot AS out of Babylon using spies, and they promptly reconquered it. Now, however, it seems that the minor polis which was formerly there is gone. Can all levels of polis be downgraded this way, or is it just minor ones?

[QuintusSertorius]

Since the destruction of poleis has already been brought up, I figured I'd ask a related question. Does enslaving a settlement downgrade (or wipe out) a polis? As the Nabateans, I managed to boot AS out of Babylon using spies, and they promptly reconquered it. Now, however, it seems that the minor polis which was formerly there is gone. Can all levels of polis be downgraded this way, or is it just minor ones?

Yes, I think it can. Enslaving has unpredictable consequences, unfortunately, that's what the AI always does.

[Cultist]

What about the governments installed with Pontos, as per my question
How do you play it

[QuintusSertorius]

What about the governments installed with Pontos, as per my question
How do you play it

Presence or absence of a polis is kind of irrelevant with regards government choice (except that it means you can't build a Hierai Chora); where you're building it is what matters. The Symmachia gives the best native pool, the other two give you levies plus some core factionals.

[Cultist]

Thank you, i have to say that the Pontos is by far the hardest campaign i ever had and i had many.
I've been caught with my pants down two times, once by Hay(?!!) and another time by Pergamon, and they were amazing, pouring stacks like mad.
Somehow they have an incredible economy and mine is barely covering for two stacks,
Amazing campaign anyway, definitely need a how to play for 2.3
Spread thin is an understatement.

Later edit:
Also, long time have i thought that the Hay are the ones to build up the persian empire but their troop selection is very unsatisfying.
Anyone undergoing this quest should try the Pontos after the reforms! The non-hellenic troop selection is AMAZING and worthy of the persian name. You don't get the persian archer/spearmen except in a region but they are a poor replacement for immortals anyway

[Krampus]

Thank you, i have to say that the Pontos is by far the hardest campaign i ever had and i had many.
I've been caught with my pants down two times, once by Hay(?!!) and another time by Pergamon, and they were amazing, pouring stacks like mad.
Somehow they have an incredible economy and mine is barely covering for two stacks,
Amazing campaign anyway, definitely need a how to play for 2.3
Spread thin is an understatement.

Later edit:
Also, long time have i thought that the Hay are the ones to build up the persian empire but their troop selection is very unsatisfying.
Anyone undergoing this quest should try the Pontos after the reforms! The non-hellenic troop selection is AMAZING and worthy of the persian name. You don't get the persian archer/spearmen except in a region but they are a poor replacement for immortals anyway

I know, right???

I restarted my Pontus campaign in 2.3 with lessons from the first two. Suggestedopeming moves:
- mass your army and conquer the stack near sinope, then sinope itself.
- ignore ani-kama and any other region haunted by wandering stacks. Ani-kama is tempting because no walls and small garrison, but it's not terribly valuable and you have to be able to fight the wandering stack that randomly decides to siege you.
- take Trapezous, then kutatisi, then mtskheta (garrison script triggered for me so I sieged until they sallied. Admittedly I withdrew my general [faction leader] until the last two turns to avoid the rationing attribute. I'm a dirty cheater, I know).
- then you should have enough provinces and enough dead troops to get out of debt. Train a few more units, take the rebel stack near ani-kama and then take the region. Don't sack, just occupy, the population is small enough to hold but is nearly big enough to upgrade the walls

Hayasdan also menaced me after I took these settlements (which basically surrounded their entire borders), so while in my last game they accepted my generous offer for an alliance, I mustered a stack and a half and destroyed them. After a series of INFURIATING BATTLES. Boy the battle AI seems to really know how to use those ****ing cataphracts effectively. I watched helplessly more than once as a bodyguard unit exploited a weakness in my wavering left flank guard and rolled through behind my phalanx, chain routing my entire army while my cav were fighting it out with theirs on the right.

But taking Hayasdan asap is a great first goal. Amravir produces a tremendous amount of $$$ and it puts you in a very safe position from which to expand.

Fun tip: try to go into every battle outnumbered by at least a few units. SO MUCH MORE EXCITING. Like, save before every battle, and if the pre-battle display is weighted evenly or in your favor, reload the save and withdraw a few units. It's also a great way to level up your faction leader or faction heir.

[QuintusSertorius]

Sinope is actually the historical first target, though it took Pontos decades to take it after many failed attacks. The advantage of taking it early is that it's a source of Greek infantry - the best you're going to have access to for a while. The disadvantage is that you'll never be able to upgrade the polis.

[Krampus]

But because of Stasis, Pontus is probably the only faction in the region that gets the benefit of a polis (units and counts towards colonists) while still being able to hold it with a factional government ^_^

[QuintusSertorius]

But because of Stasis, Pontus is probably the only faction in the region that gets the benefit of a polis (units and counts towards colonists) while still being able to hold it with a factional government ^_^

Yes, but they suffer a massive culture penalty. If Pontos takes Athenai, they get a -100% hit to order due to culture difference. If Makedonia takes Athenai, their culture hit is 0%.

The entire point of Autonomia and Stasis is to make it harder for Hellenistic factions to hold Hellas. Even then -40% is not that bad; it might make you have to think hard about whether you want to colonise, and thus put a factional government in, but it isn't going to make you rule out anything but Allied Government for all time.

[Cultist]

I would like to add a first move or first-ish one.
Pontos suffers economically, massively!
That is why you should take Nikaia, and build a mine asap.
With only that city you will have enough money to feed your armies.
Most of the other towns are not worth it, mine wise.
Most will say that "it takes too much to build a mine"
Trust me, Pontos campaign progression moves like a SNAIL.
I had times during my first 50 moves or so where i was mostly idling.

Another thing, those who finish Pontos campaign without cheating should deserve a special hall of fame.
I got the reforms at turn 160 the soonest, and i was planning for it.
We definitely need a guide for Pontos, 2.3

[Dargaron]

In the process of a ~100 turn Pontos game, controlling Amaseia, Sinope, Trapezous, and the Chersonesos.

Isn't it rather risky to go after Nikaia early? It's fairly far from any of your settlements (so you'll need a second army to properly defend it), and could spark an early confrontation with Pergamon, which I'm not sure I can win with the starting troops, especially if I take the time to kill off the roamers to avoid devastation.

My current starting moves are to target the Sinope roamer, then the Kappadokian and/or Galatian (whichever one gets close first) roamer, then take Sinope and wipe the roamer in my home province proper. That takes out virtually all of my starting forces, at which point I wait for the devastation to go down and save up to build a faction gov in Sinope. Probably should've built a Symmachia, but those colonies are so darn tempting, so I went with a Strategeia :-).

At this point, my biggest concern is gearing up for a campaign against Pergamon (to take Ankyra and Nikaia), while hoping that my alliance with the Sauromatae keeps them from any funny business in the Chersonesos (I sniped the KB because they were in a stalemate with the Sauromatae. The Sauromatae got the steppe provinces, and I got the peninsula proper. They're still alive in Alazonia, for some reason.). Ideally, Sauromatae and Hai bloody each other enough to keep them off my back.

WRT destroying Poleis, would it be possible to include the process as a building (that takes, like, 20 turns or something to build) at the end of the Polis build tree, then have a script that destroys all Hel pol4 buildings?

EDIT: Just an oddity, but is there a reason the starting Galatian stack is, like, half cavalry? I think it might've even had more cavalry than infantry, if you count the chariots. Not that I'm complaining; the invaders were expunged by Pontic iron. But that seems like a really rare force composition for Celts in general.

[Krampus]

IMHO, best pre-reform govt is Strategos ton-philon (am I saying it right?) gives you MASSIVE economic bonuses at the cost of happiness penalty, which is not that bad since most regions have no culture penalty and can be held with little to no garrison. ALSO ALLOWS FOR CONSTRUCTION OF COLONIES, so if you worry about limited troop recruitment (i.e. native phalanx and cappadocian cav), its no problem.

[Cultist]

Ok, here is my guide to the perplexed Pontos denizen.
Let's say the first 50 turns?
This guide is made for a mediocre strategous like myself and not for a battlefield wizard.
I always sustain 700-800 casualties minimum in a fight, some people here play on hard BAI, i can't even comprehend that, they surpass me by a longshot.
Start off by building roads in your province and as a rule build farm and roads first.
Taking that out of the way, send your army to Trapezous, it is an easy kill.
Be careful how many units you take out from your capital (you have some archers some spearmen and some javelins, i leave the javelins and i take spears and archers), you don't want it to go red but you want it to pump max money as well, this go for every other city you take on the first 4-5 ones, after you have a decent income of 10k mnai per turn you can lower the taxation for towns with less than 6k pop to force the population into orgiastic frenzies.
After you sent for Trapezous, send your spy to Nicaia to keep an eye out on them. I'll return to this later.
Build 2 or 3 watchtowers in your native province to take care of the roving rebels, they are attracted to these like moths are to the light. you will have an easier life after this. Do this as you see fit for every province that you capture. It costs 200 mnai, extends vision and provides you with more time. You can deal with them permanently but there is no honor in it.
Send your diplomat on a mission to Egypt first, sue for peace and trade rights, ask them to give you 1200 mnai.
After that, build your diplomatic relations by trying to get an alliance with Ptoles, Hai and Pergamon.
But to do that you actually need to build alliances with Greece (and not Mak), Getai and Boioi, who for the first few turns send their diplomats conveniently enough to Pergamon so that is a done deal. Always push trade relations and alliance in the first inquiry (except for Ptoles, Hai and Pergamon, they are more skeptical of your intentions, so start out with trade, and later push for alliance).
Also always, try to sell your map coords for anyone excepting the nations that are your neighbors, you will need every bit of mnai in the beginning.
Good, the next city to capture would be Kutatisi, another easy takeover. The garrison script at least did not activate for me so i was left battling just 8 units of rebels that were guarding the city.
Bring back your army, retrain them, make more spearmen and native phalanxes.
Check out Nikaia, it should of been sieged by Pergamon two times already, and each time they were repulsed.
The units guarding the city should be weak enough now to manage a full siege from your part.
Why do you want Nikaia sooner or later? Mines. It was a game changer for me.
So weight your chances and if you wont take Nikaia then go for Sinope's roving army first. I lured them on a bridge by taking a smaller army to theirs, and they attacked me.
As you all know, bridge battles are like auto winning for the player.
Then retrain your forces and assault Sinope.
Focus on Nikaia next or at least try to
Another alternative would be Mtsketa but beware, garrison scrip will activate and you will have to battle a significant larger force than first believed to.
After this you will have enough mnai to unleash the full might of Pontos onto whomever you wish for.
I always go for the Hai because they have the best mine in the region in Armavir, even better than Nikaia and the 3rd best is in Shamshur or what its name was.
Best governments for me was Strategos ton-philon. After that make a garrison building to be able to construct local barracks and that will give you a troop selection that you have not even dreamed of and probably can satisfy any gameplay style. I never made those hellenic military barracks, i never saw the need for it.
I tend to favor the old phalanx and cavalry style, nothing too fancy for me thank you and i did wonders with the native phalanx so much so that i can't play without them.
Also as a city defensive unit the native phalanx does WONDERS, just one unit of this type flanked by 2to4 spear units can repulse a huge number of troops.
The native spearmen of Pontos are a joke but the galatian spearmen and galatian retainers that you get after you build Strategos are a jewel, consider including them in your army as you see fit. I like galatian spearmen more, they are cheaper and more reliable.
There are other threads with army composition which i will not get into here.
So yeah, i think that wraps it up for me.
Good luck out there.

[Lord Custard]

This is somewhat of an exploit/cheat* but I've found that it is possible to lure the large stack of eleutheroi galatians and kappodicians away from your borders using a single unit (i used the Keltoi cav). If you keep dancing around the map making it impossible for them to catch up eventually they'll give up and stick around where you left them. I managed to lure the two stacks to the southern coast of Turkey near Side I think?
Currently, just under turn 100 and I've taken both Ankyra and Mazaka. Playing on Hard CAI Medium BAI.

*History is full of dirty tricks like this so I don't feel bad in the slightest.