German elections 2017

[alhoon]

If Germany truly has such a surplus then why are they not protecting themselves? Why in the hell should the USA?

This is outrageous.

Truth be told, if they were using this mountain of money to build up their army and expand defenses, put bases in Eastern Europe and all... it would freaking drain their coffers from this nice surplus.
You may not like this answer but I think it is ... because it's cheaper for Germany.

[RubiconDecision]

Truth be told, if they were using this mountain of money to build up their army and expand defenses, put bases in Eastern Europe and all... it would freaking drain their coffers from this nice surplus.
You may not like this answer but I think it is ... because it's cheaper for Germany.

I know that is true. It's why I loathe our international military meddling when it is ridiculous and self-destructive and prevented critical infrastructure repair.

That's why I am a John Bircher Republican.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vwWJQ9PRFIs

And that is Far Right.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

If we would do what Trump and some other NATOstates demand and raise our militaryexpanses to 2 % than we would spend more in military than Russia, which are our main enemy right? Thing is they can do much more with a much smaler budget. Rising the Budget only means to make arms seller rich.

[Alastor]

FDP will 95% join despite reluctance. They're closer to the CDU than SPD. It will be Jamaica over Europe.

If Lindner agrees to a coalition that would be a tacit admission that he'll never be chancellor. That's why Schulz really is out, he is hoping to win next time. Of course maybe the FDP will decide that if they are never winning they might as well join the government and attempt to influence things that way. But have they so soon forgotten the last time they did that? The ease with which Merkel froze their plans right on their tracks the moment it was convenient? Or their ensuing electoral catastrophe that kept them out of parliament for a good 4 years? I don't know, I'm not too sure.

If Germany truly has such a surplus then why are they not protecting themselves? Why in the hell should the USA?

This is outrageous.

Can you imagine what will happen if Germany starts actively militarizing? Already people are having visions of the 30s.

[Admiral Piett]

You may not like this answer but I think it is ... because it's cheaper for Germany.

If that is the truth then Trump is right. NATO serves no real purpose anymore. Europe has no interest in its collective defense.

[Alastor]

If that is the truth then Trump is right. NATO serves no real purpose anymore. Europe has no interest in its collective defense.

Of course NATO serves a purpose. It affirms US supremacy and keeps Europe in line. You really think Europe would be so readily dancing to the US tune on all things Russia for instance if not for NATO?

[Mithradates]

Which is why the middle class has been devastated by cheap Chinese labor and automation.

Funny that nobody really wants to address this, automation, robotics and autonomous systems are the next industrial revolution, its already happening and it will totally change the world. Come to think of it I understand why politicians dont want to talk about it haha

Oh, no no no no... NOT AGAIN. Don't do that every 2 generations. Not 3rd chances.

Oh no its here, AfD 13% the Fourth Reich is rising!

Of course NATO serves a purpose. It affirms US supremacy and keeps Europe in line. You really think Europe would be so readily dancing to the US tune on all things Russia for instance if not for NATO?

Yep, without the NATO Europe would need an EU army and that would be a potential rival to the US. I dont believe the US wants that.

[alhoon]

Yep, without the NATO Europe would need an EU army and that would be a potential rival to the US. I dont believe the US wants that.

USA probably doesn't really care or feels threatened by the possibility. It's Europe that really, REALLY don't want to pay for an EU army. Why would Spaniards (or Greeks) pay for an army that would basically defend Poland and the Baltics?

[Alastor]

USA probably doesn't really care or feels threatened by the possibility. It's Europe that really, REALLY don't want to pay for an EU army. Why would Spaniards (or Greeks) pay for an army that would basically defend Poland and the Baltics?

The US feels threatened by NK. A wayward Europe is definitely not sth America wants. But it's not even about the possibility of conflict. It's about control. NATO serves as a powerful tool for political concessions. The US is not paying for Europe's security, but for the maintenance of its a vast collection of vassal states.

[Basil II the B.S]

NATO is exactly the reason you think Russia is going to invade the Baltic any time soon. American imperialist propaganda is there so that you think you need to pay Americans to protect you from evil Russia and if it wasn't evil Russia it'd be evil China or something else.

Gotta find an enemy to justify the military spending.

NATO is exactly the reason you think Russia is going to invade the Baltic any time soon. American imperialist propaganda is there so that you think you need to pay Americans to protect you from evil Russia and if it wasn't evil Russia it'd be evil China or something else.

Gotta find an enemy to justify the military spending.

Its proponents employ deliberately placed (and then only nominally retracted) provocations and insults, like dumping a German politician with Turkish roots in Anatolia, shooting at women and children at the border, rambling about alleged racial differences between European and African reproduction habits, and making revisionist statements about the two world wars.
The likes of Höcke and Gauland deliberately use "völkisches" vocabulary about Volk and Land, promoting the very same racist nonsense as others before, just disguised by a thin veneer of pseudo-science and "surely one is still allowed to say <insert prejudice>"-type statements. The AfD is as far right as one can be without openly spouting Nazi slogans.

One should note that 60 percent of their voters said they voted for them not for support of the party's position but to stick it to the other parties, so one should not overstate the support these disgusting ideas have among the German citizenry, although the naivety with which some people swallow the AfD's simplistic messages is horrifying.

Another important point is the spatially disparate distribution of AfD votes, with one digit numbers in the west, low two digit number in the south and 20 and more percent in eastern Germany, going up to 29% in Saxony where it may well turn out to be the strongest party by votes. It makes me wonder why east Germany would so fervently follow the next racist populists to fish for their votes, after we went to such lengths to reintegrate them into the free world after the collapse of the GDR. Maybe 40 years of Communist party dictatorship (with its accompanying lack of reflection on the Nazis before that) have done more damage than we thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM-6H1F37dc

This are the Greens: make Germans a minority and it'll be a good thing.

So, let me guess:
-keeping Germany German=racist
-replacing Germans=not racist

Is that because blonde blue eyes are evil?

How exactly does this work? How exactly calling for ethnic replacement of anyone is racist, unless it's for any European ethnicity, then those must go?

If that's the argument, then you don't get to complain about Afd. Greens are the racist and extremists, and their extremism is obviously causing a reaction of the other side; that's also not going away until Greens are shut down, which noone will do obviously, as they are even poised to enter government now, with predictable results.

[athanaric]

Oh, no no no no... NOT AGAIN. Don't do that every 2 generations. Not 3rd chances.

See above. CONTEXT, people.

Because the Germans don't have a history of ecoterrorist regimes or deep communist \ radical left regimes (the East-Germany one was imposed by USSR). Their eco-parties and leftwing parties haven't turned Europe to a graveyard in the past.
That's why they are worse.

That's a moronic argument. Employing this logic, let's forever keep Mongolia from having an army (let's also destroy their enormous monument to Genghis Khan, while we're at it). In our time, we're faced with an entirely different situation.
The German "eco" and left wing parties are just as much, if not more, inheritors of National Socialist ideas and totalitarianism as the AfD is.

You missed the part where the main economical political discussions in Germany were about what to do with the mountain of money they've made, with a positive surplus going back to 2011.
The purchasing power of all strata of German society have increased. Here you can see GDP PPP per capita in 2013 and in 2017. The Purchasing power of Germans has increased 12% since 2013. That's right. 12% in 4 years.
Economy is booming. Salaries are up. Pensions are up. Unemployment is down. And all this still left Germany with tons of money in the coffers. The system works.

AfD is raising because the Eastern parts of Germany are afraid the immigrants will take their jobs and because of the security concerns.

You know what's also up? Immigrant crime and rents in most major cities. And the number of old people anticipating a life in poverty. Etc. Eastern Germans aren't just "afraid" of something, they have material interests and are just as capable of reasoning as everyone else. Oh, and "the immigrants" are taking their jobs, and often enough native women too - because both the latter and the former are moving to the big cities. People who were expecting miracles from the migration wave such as a revival of small towns thanks to new settlers, or an influx of qualified workers, are already sorely being disappointed.
If you want to get a picture of the real situation, stop cherry picking abstract numbers.

That said: German GDP is raising, all is going well...

Jesus. You know Germany is in debt just like any other country, right?

[tgoodenow]

If we would do what Trump and some other NATOstates demand and raise our militaryexpanses to 2 % than we would spend more in military than Russia, which are our main enemy right? Thing is they can do much more with a much smaler budget. Rising the Budget only means to make arms seller rich.

Problem is, US spends 11 billion on German baseupkeep per year (and these are 2003 estimates so its probably higher). If you guys feel you are safe with your current spending, that is fine with me and don't ask us to stay. But why do your ministers complain when Trump talks about re approaching Russia ? If you don't feel safe then spend more or don't complain when we have talks with Russia. Your countries representatives and EU representatives talk from two sides of their mouths on the issus.

US citizens want an armed Europe and an armed Asia (Japan SK Vietnam India) because we are tired of footing the bill.

[Condottiere 40K]

Putin is the reason we believe that the Baltic Republics are in danger of being overrun; NATO is the reason he won't risk it.

The German car industry unions have to prepare themselves for massive automation.

[Alastor]

Europeans complain about our military while demanding protection.

US citizens want an armed Europe and an armed Asia (Japan SK Vietnam India) because we are tired of footing the bill.

Yes and Americans complain it's not free to maintain an empire.

Many European citizens also want NATO out you know, because we are tired of being US vassals.

But you see it's not about what American or European citizens want.

[tgoodenow]

Yes and Americans complain it's not free to maintain an empire.

Many European citizens also want NATO out you know, because we are tired of being US vassals.

But you see it's not about what American or European citizens want.

Most US citizens don't want to maintain an empire. It would be a lot easier for us to leave if someone besides U.K., Baltic states, and Poland had an army.

[Gäiten]

Putin is the reason we believe that the Baltic Republics are in danger of being overrun; NATO is the reason he won't risk it..

And if Germany had not disarmed so massively, Putin might have not even risked his Crimea and Ukraine stunts.

[Alastor]

Most US citizens don't want to maintain an empire. It would be a lot easier for us to leave if someone besides U.K., Baltic states, and Poland had an army.

But you see it's not about what American or European citizens want.

[tgoodenow]

In the three years in this site, I have never seen a European call for an expansion of their home military. Only excuses as to why the status quo is acceptable. So if this board is any indication, the citizens and the politicians who want the same

[Gäiten]

In the three years in this site, I have never seen a European call for an expansion of their home military. Only excuses as to why the status quo is acceptable. So if this board is any indication, the citizens and the politicians who want the same

Well, then I am the first who call for an Expansion and improvement of my country`s Military.

[Alastor]

In the three years in this site, I have never seen a European call for an expansion of their home military. Only excuses as to why the status quo is acceptable. So if this board is any indication, the citizens and the politicians who want the same

Why expand? The armies of the EU are already big enough. What they need is centralization and consolidation. A Pentagon basically. That would be willing to spend enough on research to improve them.

Hell the benefits of such a move would be multifold for Europe. The US owes much of its technological preeminence to a spendthrift Pentagon funding all kinds of research.