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Thread: German elections 2017

  1. #341

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    The problem was never ''refugees'' to begin with.
    The problem is open borders activists trying to expand the term because opposition to mass migration is growing and it's relatively harder to say no if you call the migrant ''refuge''.
    Indeed from illegal immigrants are now ''economic migrants'' and soon ''economic refugees''.
    Everyone is a ''refugee'' so accept ''everyone''. And that's why they (the open borders crowd) ruin everything.
    Too many major forces are converging worldwide for this to happen. At the same time. I doubt motivation is (macro)economical or about increasing world gdp anymore.
    For the scale it reaches it's odd the only political opposition is Brexit (that hasn't materialized yet) and Donald. It's not very often one witnesses such a long continued agreement in democracies..

    Democracies typically headbutt all the time in the most sensible subjects at inapropriate times. Why does this particular one brings such consensus on old guard ruling parties?
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  2. #342

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    It's not even consensus. It's just fear to be branded racists. Plenty of mainstream politicians are willing to admit that it's a folly as long as it's not in front of a camera.

  3. #343

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    It's not even consensus. It's just fear to be branded racists. Plenty of mainstream politicians are willing to admit that it's a folly as long as it's not in front of a camera.
    I guess accusation of "racism" can be a career breaker then. Which generates an interesting hot potato dynamic, given it's impossible for a country to receive an unending supply of foreigners without getting closer and closer to implosion.
    It will eventually fall on the role of someone of old guard to eventually say something racist to preserve the institutions of his country.

    It only shows how moral compass of reference is confused, when doing all kinds of weaponry sales to unstable unpredictable middle east regions is 100% ok, but the minimal racist remark warrants imediate punishment.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  4. #344

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    There's no moral compass anymore. Everyone is sold out. They care about their little career and the gifts for allowing the money flow from the Gulf.

    It's one of those times in history where the ruling elite is simply too corrupt to do anything about ... anything. Democracy in that sense is proving to be just like any other political system, not better nor worse. Enlightened rulers lead their countries to prosperity, corrupt ones lead it to decadence. Elections don't matter, they are a facade to keep people calm that ''change'' is possible without resorting to the guillotine.

  5. #345
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    The point is that of differentiating more clearly between legitimate asylum seekers, refugees of war coming in from safe third countries, and economic migrants.
    This and rejected asylum seekers should be sent back immediately. The entire bureaucratic apparatus is hopelessly overburdened even with all the corrective measures that are already in effect, as proven by the last few years. There is no hope that existing law is executed with the necessary rigor and swiftness. As it is right now, Germany is at the mercy of larger geopolitics.

    The individual human right to asylum remains untouched, it really has to remain such without breaching the constitution.
    The asylum paragraph can be questioned and restricted to EU-citizens for example. If it remains valid for every hungry people on earth that's suffering a bit of a conflict this is never going to end. Attempts at changing the constitution can be undertaken and can very well be a lawful reformation.
    Last edited by swabian; October 10, 2017 at 08:46 AM.

  6. #346

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    There's no moral compass anymore. Everyone is sold out. They care about their little career and the gifts for allowing the money flow from the Gulf.

    It's one of those times in history where the ruling elite is simply too corrupt to do anything about ... anything. Democracy in that sense is proving to be just like any other political system, not better nor worse. Enlightened rulers lead their countries to prosperity, corrupt ones lead it to decadence. Elections don't matter, they are a facade to keep people calm that ''change'' is possible without resorting to the guillotine.
    Sir John Glubb was right after all. Question is if it's possible to do anything to revert the cycle, or just accept what is deemed as inevitable.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  7. #347

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    It's part of the cycle. Hard times>prosperity>decadence>downfall.

    It kinda sucks that we were born at the end of prosperity and the beginning of decadence while we'll have to live through the downfall.


    Edit:

    Sinn suggests to abolish minimum wage so that the German job market can absorb the refugee influx.
    https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/artic...ook.shared.web
    I'm sure the Left that has embraced open borders will somehow try to spin this as a victory for the proletariat.

    Rejoice, your wage is going to zero but at least we have diversity. Open borders are totally compatible with left-wing economic goals. Not.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; October 10, 2017 at 12:31 PM.

  8. #348
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    This and rejected asylum seekers should be sent back immediately. The entire bureaucratic apparatus is hopelessly overburdened even with all the corrective measures that are already in effect, as proven by the last few years. There is no hope that existing law is executed with the necessary rigor and swiftness. As it is right now, Germany is at the mercy of larger geopolitics.
    From what I gather the apparatus has gained a lot in efficiency over the course of the crisis, both by increased personnel and improved procedures and communication. We're still lacking in digitalisation, as usual, but the total number of pending cases has dropped significantly since last year (see the last table on p.12 here).

    What is hampering the process is the unwillingness of third countries to cooperate in issuing preliminary identity documents (for those that lost or "lost" them) and then in actually accepting their citizens back. For that we are in fact at the mercy of geopolitics to some extent, but not as haplessly as one might think, considering the political leverage Germany has gained as one of the few countries making it stably through the finanical (and to be frank, also the migrant/refugee) crisis.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    The asylum paragraph can be questioned and restricted to EU-citizens for example. If it remains valid for every hungry people on earth that's suffering a bit of a conflict this is never going to end. Attempts at changing the constitution can be undertaken and can very well be a lawful reformation.
    Since it is Article 16 it cannot be changed like the rest of the first 20 Articles, but it does contain important restrictions on who can claim the right to political asylum, most importantly excluding those from safe third countries (notwithstanding special cases where personal persecution can be proven) and those that entered another EU country before. Of course one could have said so much earlier and sent all refugees and migrants back to Italy and Greece, but at that point it would have simply led to the collapse of at least Greece and at least a severe destabilisation of Italy, neither of which would be in our humanitarian or realpolitikal interests. So far most refugees of the Syrian civil war have only been granted subsidiary protection, not asylum anyway, as a sensible compromise between the fact that as refugees of war they require temporary shelter and the fact that they flee general violence expected to subside intermediately, not specific persecution.
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  9. #349
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Merkel has her problems in forming a now government. Even within her party there are problems.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ection-fallout

    She may want to deal with the new IdF, but unless she makes some moves to accommodate what ails the electorate, I think she will find herself with no government even thru January.

  10. #350
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    For the nay-sayers:
    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/ce24...ped-up-by.html

    It is quite clear that Merkel did well. Germany is doing so well that it props up the whole EU.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  11. #351
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Germany does well despite of her retarded leadership. Nothing new new at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    From what I gather the apparatus has gained a lot in efficiency over the course of the crisis, both by increased personnel and improved procedures and communication. We're still lacking in digitalisation, as usual, but the total number of pending cases has dropped significantly since last year (see the last table on p.12 here).

    What is hampering the process is the unwillingness of third countries to cooperate in issuing preliminary identity documents (for those that lost or "lost" them) and then in actually accepting their citizens back. For that we are in fact at the mercy of geopolitics to some extent, but not as haplessly as one might think, considering the political leverage Germany has gained as one of the few countries making it stably through the finanical (and to be frank, also the migrant/refugee) crisis.

    Since it is Article 16 it cannot be changed like the rest of the first 20 Articles, but it does contain important restrictions on who can claim the right to political asylum, most importantly excluding those from safe third countries (notwithstanding special cases where personal persecution can be proven) and those that entered another EU country before. Of course one could have said so much earlier and sent all refugees and migrants back to Italy and Greece, but at that point it would have simply led to the collapse of at least Greece and at least a severe destabilisation of Italy, neither of which would be in our humanitarian or realpolitikal interests. So far most refugees of the Syrian civil war have only been granted subsidiary protection, not asylum anyway, as a sensible compromise between the fact that as refugees of war they require temporary shelter and the fact that they flee general violence expected to subside intermediately, not specific persecution.
    Sorry, i must have overlooked your answer back then.

    What you're dealing with is approximately how the system is supposed to work in theory. But the system is completely worthless, if it can be avoided by asylum seekers throwing their pass away, claiming whatever identity they see fit... for example.

    The reality is that they are simply swarming in en masse and Germany can't process those masses. The bureaucratic apparatus is simply hopelessly overburdened. Even those who are actually rejected are being granted suspension of deportation according to this ridiculously inefficent procedure of processing the refugee influx. The system you think is in place is simply not working.
    Last edited by swabian; November 15, 2017 at 02:03 AM.

  12. #352

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    For the nay-sayers:
    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/ce24...ped-up-by.html

    It is quite clear that Merkel did well. Germany is doing so well that it props up the whole EU.
    No it doesn't.

    It's the whole EU buying German goods, so it's rest of the EU propping up Germany, not the opposite.

    It's not like the US which has a huge trade deficit hence it's buying goods from all over the world and propping it up. It's the opposite.

    German trade surpluses are the ones destroying Southern Europe, so Germany is not good for the EU, it's good for itself and bad for the South.

    Also inequality is through the roof in Germany and the areas where Merkel lost consensus are the ones most packed with people on temp jobs. Once again, I have to teach leftists how to be leftists.

  13. #353
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    No it doesn't.

    It's the whole EU buying German goods, so it's rest of the EU propping up Germany, not the opposite.

    It's not like the US which has a huge trade deficit hence it's buying goods from all over the world and propping it up. It's the opposite.

    German trade surpluses are the ones destroying Southern Europe, so Germany is not good for the EU, it's good for itself and bad for the South.

    Also inequality is through the roof in Germany and the areas where Merkel lost consensus are the ones most packed with people on temp jobs. Once again, I have to teach leftists how to be leftists.


    "leftists" are no fan of merkel, but it seems unlike some people, they do recognize the lesser evil when they see it. maybe teachother people how to be leftists, and merkel will be a thing of the past.

    as for the "south", italy is in the north now? maybe start taking responsibility, instead of blaming others for your problems.
    Last edited by HannibalExMachina; November 15, 2017 at 09:29 AM.

  14. #354

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    "leftists" are no fan of merkel, but it seems unlike some people, they do recognize the lesser evil when they see it. maybe teachother people how to be leftists, and merkel will be a thing of the past.
    That's what the left has been saying for almost 3 decades as an excuse for selling out to neoliberal policies they claim to hate.

    Now that the Right is doing the job the Left doesn't want to do, you whine like this. The Right will protect the working class while the Left will keep endorsing policies like open borders that destroy the poor. Electoral results reflect the shift.
    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    as for the "south", italy is in the north now? maybe start taking responsibility, instead of blaming others for your problems.
    How did you read my post and what does your comment mean?

    My post:

    German trade surpluses are destroying Southern Europe.

    Italy is in the South and is among those countries being crashed, specifically by the Euro currency which inflates the value of Italian exports making them less competitive and deflating German exports making them more competitive. Those are facts.

    What are you blabbing about?

  15. #355
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    all the right ever does is favouring policies that increase income inequality, as well as equality in general. the right protecting the working class is laughable, as that is counter to their every principle and indeed action. have leftwing governments caved in to neoliberalism? yes they have. doesnt change the fact you are still promoting the arsonist over the ineffective firefighter.

    all you have are scapegoats, like foreigners and probably minorities and women who have the gall to ask for equality. it never occurs to you that people who thrive on inequality may, shock of shocks, not have your best interests in mind. sure, give your vote to people whose position would be harmed by any form of social and economic progress, and be amazed that no progress is happening.

    italy is on the growing side. it is also in the south. you do the math.

  16. #356

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    ^
    all the left ever does is favouring policies that increase income inequality, as well as equality in general. the left protecting the working class is laughable, as that is counter to their every principle and indeed action. have leftwing governments caved in to neoliberalism? yes they have. doesnt change the fact you are still promoting the arsonist over the ineffective firefighter.

    all you have are scapegoats, like racists and probably "nazi minorities" and bankers who have the gall to ask for real economic growth. it never occurs to you that people who thrive on equality may, shock of shocks, not have your best interests in mind. sure, give your vote to people whose position would be harmed by any form of social and economic evolution, and be amazed that no satisfying economic growth is happening.
    --
    See? Very easy game to play.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  17. #357
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    It's the whole EU buying German goods, so it's rest of the EU propping up Germany, not the opposite.
    Because Merkel brought the German Hegemony. Sure we were turned practically to a colony with our economic decisions being decided in Berlin Brussels by people that are not elected by Greeks. But that is not against the interests of the German voter. It is against the interests of the Greek voter - colonial subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Once again, I have to teach leftists how to be leftists.
    Once again: I am center-rightwing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post

    Also inequality is through the roof in Germany and the areas where Merkel lost consensus are the ones most packed with people on temp jobs.
    No, inequality is not through the roof in Germany. They are frankly a model for economic equality in a capitalist society, having the 14th lower GINI index in the freaking world. Absorbing East Germany has had hiccups and the crisis didn't help, but they're getting there.

    Temp jobs are a product of the Free market and as a rightwing I am OK with it. Things will progressively get better for those people because Germany does better. The government has to stand back from dictating to businesses how to do business unless they start going too far.
    Once again, I have to teach rightwings how to be rightwings.


    @Fkizz and HEM: You are both right.
    Pirate Party International for the win!
    Last edited by alhoon; November 15, 2017 at 12:56 PM.
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  18. #358
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    ^
    all the left ever does is favouring policies that increase income inequality, as well as equality in general. the left protecting the working class is laughable, as that is counter to their every principle and indeed action. have leftwing governments caved in to neoliberalism? yes they have. doesnt change the fact you are still promoting the arsonist over the ineffective firefighter.

    all you have are scapegoats, like racists and probably "nazi minorities" and bankers who have the gall to ask for real economic growth. it never occurs to you that people who thrive on equality may, shock of shocks, not have your best interests in mind. sure, give your vote to people whose position would be harmed by any form of social and economic evolution, and be amazed that no satisfying economic growth is happening.
    --
    See? Very easy game to play.




    does polly want a cookie?

  19. #359

    Default Re: German elections 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    all the right ever does is favouring policies that increase income inequality, as well as equality in general. the right protecting the working class is laughable, as that is counter to their every principle and indeed action. have leftwing governments caved in to neoliberalism? yes they have. doesnt change the fact you are still promoting the arsonist over the ineffective firefighter.
    The Right, right now is the one more eager to break with the 4 evil of neoliberal globalization:
    -central bank/qe
    -trade/outsourcing
    -immigration/reversed outsourcing
    -tax havens

    Of those 4, the first 3 are regularly identified by the right as evils to be tackled.

    The last one by the left (and not even that much) that nonetheless still delusionally think we can ''govern'' globalization, just like they did for the past 25 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    all you have are scapegoats, like foreigners and probably minorities and women who have the gall to ask for equality. it never occurs to you that people who thrive on inequality may, shock of shocks, not have your best interests in mind. sure, give your vote to people whose position would be harmed by any form of social and economic progress, and be amazed that no progress is happening.
    I'll let a leftist explain to you what immigration does in leftist terms:
    immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer. And the additional profits are so large that the economic pie accruing to all natives actually grows. I estimate the current “immigration surplus”—the net increase in the total wealth of the native population—to be about$50 billion annually. But behind that calculation is a much larger shift from one group of Americans to another: The total wealth redistribution from the native losers to the native winners is enormous, roughly a half-trillion dollars a year. Immigrants, too, gain substantially; their total earnings far exceed what their income would have been had they not migrated.
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...nt-jobs-214216

    And the sorry ass of the left that supports all of this. Wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich. In the name of multiculturalism. Marx would have the modern left lined up and shot for treason against the working class.
    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    italy is on the growing side. it is also in the south. you do the math.
    ''Stagnation'' in economics is defined as a growth below 2%.

    Italy's average is 1% yearly, post crisis. Within standard deviation error, it might as well be zero. It's dead in the water.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Because Merkel brought the German Hegemony. Sure we were turned practically to a colony with our economic decisions being decided in Berlin Brussels by people that are not elected by Greeks. But that is not against the interests of the German voter. It is against the interests of the Greek voter - colonial subject.
    The only thing Germans can rightfully point out is that it's our politicians fault that they do not protect our national interests. German politicians do. They shut down any EU level initiative that hurts Germany.

    Our politicians say ''Europe first, then we'll fix it later''. Later never arrives, Germany wins. Even that traitor Renzi admitted ''I did not protect the national interest while in charge''.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Once again: I am center-rightwing.
    First time I read that, nonethless, center right is pointless today. Center left and center right all support the same globalist policies that are crashing the middle class and causing a rightful resentment against it.
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No, inequality is not through the roof in Germany. They are frankly a model for economic equality in a capitalist society, having the 14th lower GINI index in the freaking world. Absorbing East Germany has had hiccups and the crisis didn't help, but they're getting there.

    Being less inequal than the rest of, doesn't mean that inequality isn't growing and fast.
    Germany's economic strength masks rising inequality



    http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/06/news...ity/index.html

    I had posted this earlier in this thread if you prefer further data:

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post



    Merkel's economic miracle:

    +54% poors.
    +80% workers with 2 jobs.
    +30% low income pensioners
    +100% low income workers.

    God bless globalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Temp jobs are a product of the Free market and as a rightwing I am OK with it. Things will progressively get better for those people because Germany does better. The government has to stand back from dictating to businesses how to do business unless they start going too far.
    Once again, I have to teach rightwings how to be rightwings.
    @Fkizz and HEM: You are both right.
    PirateParty International for the win!
    The above chart says the opposite. Temp jobs kill career progression. You never work enough to get promoted, or your job gets outsourced as soon as it could become full time.
    Those at the bottom remain at the bottom, there's no social mobility from the temp jobs working class to the middle class.

    Temp jobs exists only for dishonest economist to drug GDP growth and unemployment rate so that they can pretend their policies work. Then people eventually riot and economists call them ignorant for not appreciating a system they created and that sees the lower class as permanent loser.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; November 15, 2017 at 01:47 PM.

  20. #360
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: German elections 2017

    ah yes, the right that always pushes deregulation, is heavenly implied in tax heavens, whose billionaire allies get tax gifts, and profit immensly from globalization. your only remote point is immigration, where the right plays on xenophobia to pander to the nitwits. while the lobbyist of the right gladly profit from employing immigrants for a pittance, if the laws allows it, and gladly take government incentives if it doesnt.

    the right makes sure money goes always up the chain, blaming immigrants for doing the same. no number of immigrants has ever taken as much money as conservatives channel to themselves or their owners.

    but you know what, im done with banging your head against the impossible obstacle that is reality. vote for the people fleecing you, its not really undeserved.

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