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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

  1. #1

    Default Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)





    I took the reins from Culverin on the Venetian project awhile ago some of the changes can be seen already in the February build. I finally found time to finish what I started, taking cues from the recent round of adjustments I made to Genoa and Sicily.



    Tier 1(Early Period)


    Levy Archers

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    Levy Crossbowmen

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    Arceri

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    Balestrieri



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    Levy Spearmen


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    Levy Swordsmen

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    Foot Zaffones

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    Lanceri


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    Execustai Guard


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    Lanzalonge Spearmen(Proto-pikemen, need a proper name)

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    Spadaccini


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    Foot Signori


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    Mounted Crossbowmen

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    Zaffones


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    Signori

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    Doge's Bodyguard

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    Tier 2 (High)



    Communal Arceri


    Screens Coming Soon


    Communal Balestieri


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    Arceri

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    Balestrieri


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    Communal Lanceri

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    Communal Swordsmen


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    Foot Zaffones

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    Lanceri


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    Execustai Guard


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    Roconieri


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    Picchieri


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    Spadaccini


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    Fanti Di Mar


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    Foot Signori


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    Mounted Crossbowmen


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    Zaffones


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    Signori


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    Doge's Bodyguard


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    Tier 3 (Late)




    Communal Arceri


    Screens Coming Soon


    Communal Balestieri


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    Communal Shiopettari


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    Arceri


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    Balestieri Pavesari


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    Shiopettari


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    Communal Lanceri


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    Communal Swordsmen


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    Foot Zaffones


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    Lanceri Pavesari


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    Roconieri


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    Picchieri


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    Spadaccini


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    Fanti Di Mar


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    Foot Signori


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    Mounted Crossbowmen


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    Zaffones


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    Equitatores


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    Signori


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    Doge's Bodyguard


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    That's all folks! I need to add to do some touch ups to the tier 2 and 3 Communal Arceri units, expect pictures soon. Also like always everything is subject to change and adjustments.

    Last edited by warman222; September 19, 2017 at 11:01 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Some tier 1 units have bascinets.
    Last edited by lion8000; September 19, 2017 at 12:07 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Very nice
    Are you sure is 'arceri'?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    That's very impressive!!!
    I like how u re-designsd the (Foot) Signori High Period armor, seems more in line with the historical ones.
    If u allow me a small critic, it seems to me that some early period units have high period helms and some high period units have late period helms.
    Are you planning on adding some istrian units? Thanks in advance for any reply
    Keep up the good work!!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Nice changes and additions all around. The tier 2 Signori especially look spectacular, it never ceases to amaze me what you guys are able to do.
    The only thing that I think still needs some more work are the tier 3 Signori with their blank surcoats and somme blank shields.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Yep, this is really an improvement! I like especially that some units of each tier like archers, crossbows, spearmen or even melee-warriors come with a light/militia and heavy/professional version. There is a unit for everyone´s taste. Seen on the long run thats a basic concept that could be used on other factions too.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    So great ... The Lion of Saint-Mark on the banners is very pixelated though, saw it on the february build, it could be a major improvement to increase its resolution.

  8. #8
    eatme's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Awesome model art. No variety on marine and condottieri type of units though?

  9. #9
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    .
    Last edited by Visarion; September 23, 2017 at 04:42 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Pay attention man it is ARCIERI not ARCERI and RONCONIERI not ROCONIERI
    Source: I'm italian

  11. #11

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    And also it's SCHIOPPETTIERI (plural of "man with schioppo (the hand cannon)) and LANCIERI (not Lanceri)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Will Venice and Genoa be getting some AOR units from their various colonies?

  13. #13
    alex33's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Why does Venice lose the Execustai Guard in the late period? Does anybody have an idea for good books or sources about the military of venice or italy in general during this period?
    Europa Barbarorum II playtester
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Quote Originally Posted by alex33 View Post
    Why does Venice lose the Execustai Guard in the late period? Does anybody have an idea for good books or sources about the military of venice or italy in general during this period?
    If you're looking for academic studies I suggest you Michael Mallet's works, Mercenaries and their Masters: Warfare in Renaissance Italy, and The Military Organization of a Renaissance State: Venice circa 1400 to 1617. The first especially is quite famous, and has been semi-plagiarized by some Osprey writers. I won't suggest you books written in italian since I assume you don't speak the language.

    By the way, as it's already been pointed out there are some misspellings, and certain names make absolutely no sense at all in italian or are flat-out wrong:

    - arcieri and not arceri;
    - ronconieri and not roconieri;
    - schioppettieri and not shiopettari.

    Lanceri is actually debatable: lancieri is the modern italian form, but in the XV century they wrote lancieri, lanceri or lanzeri since there wasn't a standard spelling. They all come from lancia which means spear. Given that in venetian dialect interconsonantic -c- usually affricates, lanza and therefore lanzeri may be more historically accurate. It's a nitpick, though.

    - milizia-lanciere should become lancieri miliziani or miliziani lancieri, doesn't make any real difference;
    - lancia sergente should become sergenti lancieri;
    - excusati guard should become guardia degli excusati, or just plain excusati;
    - lungo-lanciere should become lance lunghe or lanze longhe (as I said before, it does sound more venetian);
    - milizia-arcieri should become arcieri miliziani.

    Balestriere is singular, therefore should be changed to balestrieri, which is the plural.
    - milizia-balestriere should become balestrieri miliziani;
    - communal crossbowmen is the translation of balestrieri comunali;
    - montato balestriere should be changed to balestrieri a cavallo.


    Cavaliere in italian singular, should be changed to cavalieri:
    - cavaliere Berrovieri should be changed to berrovieri a cavallo;
    - stradiots in italian is stradiotti.

    Finally, I might add that technically in italian condottiero or condottiere (plur. condottieri) is the one who stipulates a condotta, i.e. the leader of a mercenary company and not the mercenaries themselves (though I admit that outside of Italy it is sometimes synonimous with "Renaissance Italian mercenaries"). In the XIV century italian men-at-arms were called homini d'arme (modernized spelling uomini d'arme), which in the late XV century became genti d'arme, which is the word used by Machiavelli for example.
    Sorry for my nitpicking, but I actually study and write on these things ;-)
    Last edited by Sephiroth91; April 01, 2018 at 07:17 PM.
    In 'ur base, killing 'ur dudes.


  15. #15

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Thank you for your input, we always appreciate constructive criticism.

    I'm wondering if you can help me with certain terms. Could you explain how, if at all, troops named Elmeti or Lanze Spezzate would differ from a man-at-arms and in what situation would they be usable?

    Also, while I know Arcieri means 'archers', I read a thesis on Fornovo which mentions that elite troops called Arcieri were used and were made to be similar to English longbowmen (and other professional bowmen of the period) in terms of role. Would you know anything about that?
    Last edited by zsimmortal; April 01, 2018 at 10:10 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Thanks for the pointers with the Italian naming. I'll adjust these very soon.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    Thank you for your input, we always appreciate constructive criticism.
    Quote Originally Posted by warman222 View Post
    Thanks for the pointers with the Italian naming. I'll adjust these very soon.
    You're welcome, happy to be of help.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    Could you explain how, if at all, troops named Elmeti or Lanze Spezzate would differ from a man-at-arms and in what situation would they be usable?
    Ok, professor mode on: elmetto (elmeto in northern italian dialects, which do not geminate) means helmet in modern italian, but in the XV-XVI centuries was the name of the armet (which is itself derived from elmetto). Now, as I guess you already now, in late Europe the basic combatant unit was the lance, formed by 3-9 people depending on time and place: at the beginning it was made by a man-at-arms, a light-cavalryman and a squire, but later they added archers, crossbowmen or spearmen.
    Now, in Italy a lance was sometimes called by synecdoche with the name of a harness piece, such as barbuta orcorazza, while the man-at-arms himself could quite confusingly be called a celata (sallet). Without a textual reference I cannot be more precise, but I guess elmetto is synonymous with man-at-arms just as well (or even with lance, XV century italian wasn't exactly uniform).

    A lancia or lanza spezzata usually means a man-at-arms who was employed without being part of a larger company; Guicciardini describes them as "chosen soldiers employed outside of ordinary enlisted companies". However, they could also be half-strength lances, depending on the situation.

    I've also heard that a broken lance was a man-at-arms who lost his horse and broke his lance to keep fighting on foot, but that seems quite fancyful to me, and I've never read of it in primary or academic sources. By the way, in modern italian to break a lance means to act or say something in favour of someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    Also, while I know Arcieri means 'archers', I read a thesis on Fornovo which mentions that elite troops called Arcieri were used and were made to be similar to English longbowmen (and other professional bowmen of the period) in terms of role. Would you know anything about that?.
    Uhm, that sounds new to me. English longbowmen mercenaries were common in the late XIV/early XV centuries, but they never really stuck: the crossbow was vastly more popular, and usually they preferred composite recurve bows. The only late XV century reference to longbows that I'm aware of is Orsini's treatise Del governo et exercitio de la militia, which states that sappers should be equipped with english longbows or turkish composite bows, but I've never heard of either of them being used at Fornovo. I just checked Guicciardini's account of the battle and he never mentions archers.
    In 'ur base, killing 'ur dudes.


  18. #18

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Maybe I misread on my first run through, but I distinctly recall reading something about professional archers. This is the closest I could find in the description of Fornovo :

    In Italia i genovesi erano noti per l’uso della balestra, queste vennero definitivamente surclassate dagli archi durante la battagli di Anzincourt (1415). Nonostante questo i balestrieri vennero utilizzati a Fornovo, le loro formazioni fecero parte di entrambi gli schieramenti. Tra le truppe del Gonzaga vi fu un folto reparto di arcieri a cavallo, questi erano armati di arco medio lungo e a protezione delle varie parti del corpo indossavano una corazzina di cuoio, per avere facilità di movimento.

    Here's the source if you are interested : http://dspace.unive.it/bitstream/han...pdf?sequence=2

  19. #19

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    I've quickly read the whole thesis: I don't want to sound smug and arrogant, but honestly I'm far from impressed. The work hasn't clearly been proof-read, many phrases are obscure and convoluted with a lot of spelling and typing mistakes. Ok, my english is not the same as Shakespears', but this is her master's thesis and she's writing in her own native tongue, damn . She also doesn't look very at ease with the correct terminology, since she's quite obviously ignorant of the true nature of the many weapons and harness pieces she mentions.
    Her bibliography is very short and incomplete, and she often makes unsupported and totally wrong statements. She also keeps quoting ancient sources without references of any kind, which I find really, really, annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    In Italia i genovesi erano noti per l’uso della balestra, queste vennero definitivamente surclassate dagli archi durante la battagli di Anzincourt sic (1415).
    This is actually doubly wrong. First, it's actually debatable whether the longbows were a decisive factor at Azincourt or not, and secondly crossbows remained the most popular weapon in Italy in the XV century. It's something so well known that I wonder where she dragged this idea from.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    Tra le truppe del Gonzaga vi fu un folto reparto di arcieri a cavallo
    Unfortunately she doesn't provide any reference for this statement, which is unsupported by the sources she quotes. However these very same sources clearly state multiple times that the french had mounted archers, so my guess is that she misread them and confused the two armies .

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    questi erano armati di arco medio lungo
    Ehm, what ? An arco medio lungo translates as medium-longbow, I'd very much like to know what the hell are those.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    corazzina di cuoio
    As Pauli said, she's not even wrong. A corazzina (or chorazina in the original spelling) is a type of brigandine, the difference being that the upper chest is protected by two large plates instead of multiple smaller ones. Judging by what she writes, she doesn't have any idea of what a corazzina is, and she thinks it's leather armour.
    In 'ur base, killing 'ur dudes.


  20. #20

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Venice (Complete Preview at Last!)

    Pauli might've confused reflex bows with "medium-longbows", as I remember something somewhere discussing about Venetian navies wielding Eastern style bows instead of the typical crossbow.

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