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Thread: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

  1. #201

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Is there going to be a counterattack?

    https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...rattack-kirkuk

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  2. #202

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Is there going to be a counterattack?

    https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...rattack-kirkuk
    There pretty much wasn't even an attack to elicit a counterattack. I think the KRG stayed with Kirkuk so they could bait Iraqi forces to attack the city, perhaps starting an international outrage (the timing was wrong though, tough luck), which would justify KRG actions. They didn't mobilize enough forces to actually hold the city (even though they had the means), so that's what it looks like to me.


  3. #203

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Hashd al-Shaabi is not a militia, but the entirety of the militias (known as Popular Mobilization Units) controlled by the Iraqi government, whose forces also include several thousands of Sunnis. Some elements belonging to them have indeed been blamed for abuses against civilians, but we don't even know whether these accused groups are participating in the current operation. According to most reports, the majority of Peshmerga soldiers (mainly coming from PUK, which has endorsed a more conciliatory attitude and is opposed to Barzani's authoritarian regime) have withdrawn from their positions around Kirkuk, which they surrendered to the Iraqi Army without a fight. Some sporadic clashes have been mentioned, mainly in Turkmeni neighborhoods, but also in various streets of Kirkuk. It's probably the result of confusion and chaos, rather than an organised resistance from the Kurdish. Most probably, it is assumed that a deal had been agreed between Baghdad and at least PUK, but not every fighter had been informed, either due to leadership failures or because the commanders were afraid of their soldiers reacting negatively to such an initiative.
    It depends highly on which sources you choose to believe. There is indeed a lack of good objective perspectives present in the region as this is all unfolding. Either one side labels the Peshmerga as being pro-independence and another labels it as pro-government.
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  4. #204

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    I don't know how the PUK leadership could survive this cluster, they sold their own people, Kurdish civilians are fleeing Kirkuk in fear.

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  5. #205

  6. #206

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Actually they are still fleeing.
    https://twitter.com/RudawEnglish/sta...45825667223552

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  7. #207

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Principe Alessandro View Post
    How does your source, which is from the very faction that wanted to annex Kerkuk but failed, trumps over all the other sources?
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  8. #208

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Across all Kurdish social media on Facebook and Twitter, it appears that the Kurdish ex-units and civilians have come to the streets and celebrated a "mass retreat" of Iraqi militias. Unfortunately since I cannot link social media to the forum, it's hard to show everyone. But one page shows images of burning militia vehicles as well. Their FB page "Kurdish Peshmerga Forces" have posted an album of photos of soldiers gearing up and hashtag Kirkuk. Looks like something maybe starting.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; October 19, 2017 at 01:38 AM.
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  9. #209
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    https://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/p...il-246-medics/

    The takeover of Kirkuk was not us bloodless us it seemed. According to this figures 85 peshmerga were killed. The big issue now is Barzani. Will he survive as a president-dictator of Erbil or will he be overthrown?

  10. #210

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Seems that PUK and Iraqi leadership made a big gamble in order to Barzani but the situation is escalating out of control, local Kurds are in open defiance to the Iraqi military and Abadi ordered the retreat of the Shiite militia.

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  11. #211
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    The Kurds are not stupid. They want to at least keep their autonomous status within Iraq. They see that such autonomy can be lost if they over play their hands. Just look to Spain taking away the autonomy of Catalonia.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sp...-idUSKBN1CN365

  12. #212
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ˇAy Carmela!
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    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Principe Alessandro View Post
    Seems that PUK and Iraqi leadership made a big gamble in order to Barzani but the situation is escalating out of control, local Kurds are in open defiance to the Iraqi military and Abadi ordered the retreat of the Shiite militia.
    Meanwhile in reality... The Washington Post article basically explains the obvious, that tweets coming from media controlled by the Barzani clan and officials belonging to the Barzani regime are of course not reliable, but only serve as propaganda platforms for public image purposes. I really don't understand why ridiculous sources like these keep being referenced, despite the fact that their partiality has been mentioned several times in this very same thread. Spamming amateurish attempts of Goebbels-wannabes could only contribute to confirmation bias, where someone's wishful thinking is supposedly confirmed, after the obligatory distortions of reality (40 protestors and the withdrawal of the Popular Mobilization Units turning into widespread revolutions chaotic retreats respectively) have inevitably taken place. As facts proved, the Iraqi-Kurdish leadership was mature enough to recognize its military inferiority to the Iraqi Army and the various, popular militias, so they quickly withdrew from all the disputed areas, which they had occupied illegally exploiting the anarchy caused by the emergence of ISIL, without provoking an unnecessary bloodshed. Where's the problem, really? Violent deaths were limited, the fight against the jihadists was not significantly derailed and many minorities, such as Yazidis, Assyrians and Turkmens, who were displeased with Barzani's referendum initiative can now enjoy the benefits of the federal authorities, while Iraqi Kurdistan is now more ethnically homogeneous. Pretty much everyone profited from it, except for Kurdish nationalists who dreamed of territorial expansionism and American jingoists hoping for a military confrontation against Iran, so I don't really see any reason why we should be frustrated over the recent events.

  13. #213
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    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Meanwhile in reality... The Washington Post article basically explains the obvious, that tweets coming from media controlled by the Barzani clan and officials belonging to the Barzani regime are of course not reliable, but only serve as propaganda platforms for public image purposes. I really don't understand why ridiculous sources like these keep being referenced, despite the fact that their partiality has been mentioned several times in this very same thread. Spamming amateurish attempts of Goebbels-wannabes could only contribute to confirmation bias, where someone's wishful thinking is supposedly confirmed, after the obligatory distortions of reality (40 protestors and the withdrawal of the Popular Mobilization Units turning into widespread revolutions chaotic retreats respectively) have inevitably taken place. As facts proved, the Iraqi-Kurdish leadership was mature enough to recognize its military inferiority to the Iraqi Army and the various, popular militias, so they quickly withdrew from all the disputed areas, which they had occupied illegally exploiting the anarchy caused by the emergence of ISIL, without provoking an unnecessary bloodshed. Where's the problem, really? Violent deaths were limited, the fight against the jihadists was not significantly derailed and many minorities, such as Yazidis, Assyrians and Turkmens, who were displeased with Barzani's referendum initiative can now enjoy the benefits of the federal authorities, while Iraqi Kurdistan is now more ethnically homogeneous. Pretty much everyone profited from it, except for Kurdish nationalists who dreamed of territorial expansionism and American jingoists hoping for a military confrontation against Iran, so I don't really see any reason why we should be frustrated over the recent events.
    I dont see a problem with this. Its just that Iran consolidates its power over whole Iraq

  14. #214
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    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    So it seems the Kurds and Iraqi Army are fighting each other. I've already heard the Iraqis have lost over a dozen vehicles to ATGMs. I agree that the Iraqi Army is stronger than the Peshmerga, but not much stronger. Iraqi Army enjoyed the benefits of air superiority especially from the US in its fight against the IS. Its not going to enjoy that same benefit here.
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  15. #215

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    They should not press on Erbil. Kurds should have a place to flee. Altın Köprü should be the northern border and the eastern border should extend a little. They should allow Turkmens and loyal Arabs of Kirkuk to have their small militias. Army units from other regions wouldnt be reliable alone.

    Looks like they are finally moving to Turkish border to establish the new border crossing. After that I think the military part of the conflict is complete. They should move into diplomatic manauvers.

  16. #216

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    According to Kurdistan24 (and there is video imagery), which is why I cannot post the link,
    Iraqi forces in Khanaqin open fire on demonstrators, kill and injure seven
    . Google the quoted text to find it.

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  17. #217
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    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Don't believe K24 and Rudaw, their propoganda level is off the charts currently.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
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  18. #218

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    Peshmerga destroyed several Abrams tanks and are posting videos of it to facebook. They are laughing at the irony of pro-Iran Iraqi militias using American equipment against the US' largest ethnic ally in the region. It's been confirmed that Iran's IRGC chief Qassem Suleimani was present in Kirkuk during the militia operation further complicating the political allegiance of the situation. So the militias which launched the original attack did so with IRGC assistance or supervision. If the Shia militias are so open about such elements it makes me wonder what if the Iraqi Army will also turn to Iran so openly since they won't likely get any US help in this operation.
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  19. #219
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    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    I think its safe to say at this point that US has lost Iraq further to Iran.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  20. #220

    Default Re: Kurdistan Independence Referendum

    A powerful leader of a Shiite militia group has asked Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to prepare to withdraw US forces from Iraq after he said “Iranian militia” in Iraq should go home as the war on ISIS is about to end in the country. Qais al-Khazali, head of the Iranian-funded Asa'ib Ahl al-Haq, tweeted Monday night that US forces who are now in Iraq as part of the Global Coalition against ISIS must prepare to go home.


    “To the US Secretary of State: your armed forces have to prepare from this point immediately and without any delay to leave our homeland Iraq after the end of the ISIS-presence excuse,” Khazali’s tweet read in Arabic.


    It is the latest response from the Hashd al-Shaabi and the Iraqi government following Tillerson’s remark on Sunday that it was time for foreign fighters, including Iranian elements of the Hashd al-Shaabi, to leave Iraq. Ahmad al-Asadi, Hashd spokesperson, asked for an apology while calling the US remark unacceptable and baseless. Another Hashd commander, Hadi al-Amri, urged Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi not to meet with Tillerson unless the American first issued an apology. Abadi and Tillerson met in Baghdad nonetheless, their second meeting in two days. Abadi told Tillerson that the Iranian-backed Hashd al-Shaabi is an official institution under Iraqi command and all its fighters are Iraqi.


    “We have to encourage the Hashd because they will become the hope for the country and the region,” Abadi was quoted as telling Tillerson Monday evening.


    So despite all the hoops that Tillerson and Mattis have been jumping through to stay out of the conflict between the Kurds and Shia pro-Iran forces, it looks like Iraq is about to do something similar that Egypt did to the Soviets. An incremental at first but dramatic swing towards the other side. It certainly has not taken long for Iraqi commanders to start calling for immediate US withdrawal. We'll see how the prime minister reacts. Looks like the smart decision after all should have been to just back the Kurds' democratic mandate. Now the Kurds are alienated and Iraqi forces are falling more and more into the Iranian camp.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; October 23, 2017 at 05:37 PM.
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