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Thread: Catalonia Independence Referendum

  1. #21
    Almogaver's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Ludicus, that guy is as out of date in his arguments as biased. Although there are segments of Spanish (and Catalan) society widely Francoist, the degree of autonomy in Catalonia (total freedom in education for example) is enormous. They even have their own security forces, reputed to be pretty fascist / tough if you ask me. The typical Spanish does not feel any aversion for Catalonia (despite the recent stupidities on both sides) and catalonia is no longer opressed.

    I would go point by point but seriously, what that guy says are stupid things above all. Yes I want to mention that t I find it shocking that someone can applaud the proindependentist propaganda that says that the taxes of Catalonia go to areas of Spain more disadvantaged. If that were true (would be another debate), what about the solidarity?
    Exactly, our police is very fascist and our money does not go to other more disadvantaged regions, we keep everything for ourselves but we are very greedy and want even more. In contrast, the Basques and Navarrese give insane amounts of money to the rest of Spain in solidarity and thus contribute greatly to the collective growth of the country.
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  2. #22
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    Who else would be in position to request international observers? Madrid? lol
    I said select, not request.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almogaver View Post
    Exactly, our police is very fascist and our money does not go to other more disadvantaged regions, we keep everything for ourselves but we are very greedy and want even more. In contrast, the Basques and Navarrese give insane amounts of money to the rest of Spain in solidarity and thus contribute greatly to the collective growth of the country.
    Mossos hitting defenseless people. Some self-criticism to Catalan institutions for once, please.
    If you think that I have called the Catalans avaricious, it is you who is stereotyping me. (It struck me that a socialist person like Ludicus used that argument).
    Last edited by mishkin; September 07, 2017 at 02:16 PM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    If the catalans vote on this, they should all be clearly informed about how the EU will react. If everyone is well aware that independent catalonia would be outside EU, if think the 'no' side will win easily.

  4. #24
    Almogaver's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Well, the Scots voted NO to stay in the EU and now they are out anyway and against their will..

    But no need to worry lads, the Spanish constitutional court just suspended minutes ago the referendum bill approved yesterday by the Catalan parliament. All is well.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I said select, not request.
    Alright, then who would select these international observers? Perhaps some authority called in by the Catalunian government so you could keep your narrative?


  6. #26
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Each side wants what they want and do not care about any facts that get in the way.

    The pro-independence bloc has argued that full control would benefit Catalonia. The idea gained support amid the high unemployment and harsh austerity measures that came as a result of Spain’s 2008-2013 financial crisis.A return to solid growth, however, has weakened public backing for independence.
    Catalan leaders have pledged to proclaim a new republic within 48 hours if the “yes” side wins the referendum, regardless of turnout.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.fdfb967c52ab

  7. #27

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    PS. I visited Valencia and Barcelona this June and I can say that the former is the most beautiful city I have ever seen in Europe. However, I was appalled by their misplaced yet intense regionalism and their delusional perspective that they constitute separate nations with separate cultures and languages. To an outsider like me, they are indistinguishable from the other Spaniards. Also, their talk of independence coinciding with Spain facing (or being fresh from) an economic downturn is outright pathetic. Perhaps I could have respected their cause, if they had asked the same thing when Spanish power was at its prime, but now they just sound like spoiled asking for a good spanking.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 10, 2017 at 12:17 PM. Reason: Disruptive part deleted.
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  8. #28
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Almogaver View Post
    Well, the Scots voted NO to stay in the EU and now they are out anyway and against their will..

    But no need to worry lads, the Spanish constitutional court just suspended minutes ago the referendum bill approved yesterday by the Catalan parliament. All is well.
    Well then, that was quick. Catalonia is one thing, and Scotland is quite another. I can see the Scots finally separating from the UK the next time a referendum is arranged.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    To an outsider like me, they are indistinguishable from the other Spaniards.
    You literally didn't notice they speak different languages?? They have different identities shaped by centuries of history. Also, perhaps I have to remember you, you're the alien, so there's also that.

    Their constitution even acknowledges the many nationalities of Spain.
    Last edited by Yayattasa; September 10, 2017 at 06:01 PM.


  10. #30

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    You literally didn't notice they speak different languages??
    why would he? if you are just normal tourist who is not interested in languages you might not notice any difference between catalan and castillan, and most (all?) catalans can speak spanish anyways, and finally tourists usually speak english with natives.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    why would he? if you are just normal tourist who is not interested in languages you might not notice any difference between catalan and castillan, and most (all?) catalans can speak spanish anyways, and finally tourists usually speak english with natives.
    Only if you're deaf. And also blind not to notice the bilingual signs all over Barcelona. Or perhaps it's just a lie to keep up the narrative. Which one is more likely?


  12. #32
    Akrotatos's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    Only if you're deaf. And also blind not to notice the bilingual signs all over Barcelona. Or perhaps it's just a lie to keep up the narrative. Which one is more likely?
    I speak Spanish and know many Spanish & Catalan people, they all look the same to me culturally. The only difference was the pretty much all the Catalans would insist on correcting you if you called them Spanish. (I am not saying there are no cultural differences but they are as irrelevant from a foreigner's POV as the differences between English & Scots)
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  13. #33
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    Only if you're deaf. And also blind not to notice the bilingual signs all over Barcelona. Or perhaps it's just a lie to keep up the narrative. Which one is more likely?
    In the USA and even Canada we have plenty of bilingual signs and even instructions in blender packaging. What are we doing that is a lie or keeping up narrative by observing this? So the point is what that you are just whistling about. I am guessing I missed your point.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    In the USA and even Canada we have plenty of bilingual signs and even instructions in blender packaging. What are we doing that is a lie or keeping up narrative by observing this? So the point is what that you are just whistling about. I am guessing I missed your point.
    In the USA you have signs in English with Spanish as second language, as English is the "native" language. In Barcelona you have signs in Catalan with Spanish as second language, it's completely opposite, as Spanish is the national language.

    In the case of Canada, well know an area that speak primarily French that has been inclined sometimes to independence: Quebec. And that was only 20 years ago.

    So if you had an whole State in the USA where the majority spoke Spanish and came from an uniform background (because that's not the case right now, you have people from all over Latin America), that would be analogous to Catalonia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    I speak Spanish and know many Spanish & Catalan people, they all look the same to me culturally. The only difference was the pretty much all the Catalans would insist on correcting you if you called them Spanish. (I am not saying there are no cultural differences but they are as irrelevant from a foreigner's POV as the differences between English & Scots)
    Englishmen and Scots speak the same language. The language is a HUGE ethno-cultural feature that helps shape the identity. You can't simply swipe it away like that.

    And you also know they have distinct histories. They were separate Kingdoms, just like the Spanish constitution acknowledges Catalonia is a separate nationality.
    Last edited by Yayattasa; September 11, 2017 at 06:27 AM.


  15. #35
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    They were separate Kingdoms, just like the Spanish constitution acknowledges Catalonia is a separate nationality.
    They were separate kingdoms, they united and formed the crown of castille and aragon. Like 500 years ago. 500 years of common history.
    There are Catalans who will tell you that their nation is Catalonia, others will tell you that their nation is Spain, and the most reasonable ones will tell you that any kind of nationalism is stupid*. (defense of cultural and linguistic diversity apart). And yes, the Spanish constitution recognizes the existence of diverse nations within the Spanish state. (And the right to speak in the Spanish language of our choice/origin: Galician, asturian, basque, catalan, valencian or spanish).

    *and Catalonia should be worrying about more important things like the privatization of education and health or cases of corruption among their leaders, for example.
    Last edited by mishkin; September 11, 2017 at 06:51 AM.

  16. #36
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    I don't really get it. Are Catalans oppressed, second-rate citizens in Spain? If so then fine. But if not, then why? Catalans will be weaker on their own than as part of sth bigger, as will Spain. Nobody wins.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I don't really get it. Are Catalans oppressed, second-rate citizens in Spain? If so then fine. But if not, then why? Catalans will be weaker on their own than as part of sth bigger, as will Spain. Nobody wins.
    They perceive the central government as surging Catalonian taxes without proportional returns to the region, so their self-determination would allow them to better direct their resources to the growth of their nation. That's the reason, to sum it all up.


  18. #38
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    They perceive the central government as surging Catalonian taxes without proportional returns to the region, so their self-determination would allow them to better direct their resources to the growth of their nation. That's the reason, to sum it all up.
    But that is assuming that the fortunes of Catalonia will stay the same once outside Spain, this assumption is of course myopic and wrong. Catalonia is not as wealthy as it is in spite of Spain but because of it. Anyway I see. Shortsightedness and selfishness. That I can understand.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    But that is assuming that the fortunes of Catalonia will stay the same once outside Spain, this assumption is of course myopic and wrong. Catalonia is not as wealthy as it is in spite of Spain but because of it. Anyway I see. Shortsightedness and selfishness. That I can understand.
    Well, it's not up to me since I'm an outsider, but they probably hope to stay with the EU. If they do, being part of Spain loses most of it advantages and keeps the disadvantages (e.g. austerity) raised after the economical crisis.


  20. #40
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I don't really get it. Are Catalans oppressed, second-rate citizens in Spain?
    Historically speaking, Spain and the UK are unstable countries...
    Spain already is another country for many in Catalonia | Star Tribune

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Catalonia is not as wealthy as it is in spite of Spain but because of it
    Probably not, Catalonia is the industrial heartland of Spain.

    ------
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    and the most reasonable ones will tell you that any kind of nationalism is stupid*.
    Not necessarily... if you look at nationalists they are not all populists- and vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Like 500 years ago.
    500 years ago, Portugal recovered its independence; Catalonia was not so lucky.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Desperate to stave off this rebellion, Olivares called on the Duke of Braganza and his nobles to come from Portugal to help pacify Catalonia, thinking that it would then allow him to further pressure Portugal into contributing to the Union of Arms. The Duke of Braganza instead of complying, declared himself rebel and King of Portugal.
    Later, the War of Spanish Succession ended with the defeat of Catalonia in 1714. All Spanish kings tried to impose the Castilian language and laws and they failed. Franco tried to destroy the Catalan separatism (battle of Ebro, 1938- Franco , he got rid of the Generalitat and prohibited Catalans from speaking their own language.

    --------
    Government of Catalonia - Government of Catalonia

    President Puigdemont: "The State has made a qualitative leap with its scare tactics to try to stop the inevitable vote on October 1...President Puigdemont and Vice-president Junqueras criticise the Court of Auditors’ decision to move up the payment deadline for the 9N fine in a clear attempt to intimidate Catalan representatives ahead of next month’s referendum

    ...he Court of Auditors, which according to Puigdemont is “one of the most politicized bodies in the Spanish state”, is in charge of overseeing the financing of political parties and the public sector however it failed to act effectively in several corruption cases involving the People’s Party, such as Gürtel, Bárcenas and the Fundescam case in Madrid.

    In this regard, the Vice-president of the Catalan Government and Minister of the Economy and Finance, Oriol Junqueras, said that there are “no guarantees that the executive behaves in the same way with all Spanish democrats”. “The Spanish government skips all the basic rules of democracy”, he added.

    In addition to the fine, earlier in March the High Court of Justice barred president Mas from office for 2 years and imposed similar sentences for Joana Ortega and Irene Rigau, while the Spanish Supreme Court in Madrid barred Francesc Homs from office for 13 months.
    Let's wait and see.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 11, 2017 at 11:55 AM.
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