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Thread: Catalonia Independence Referendum

  1. #1
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Catalonia passes bill for vote on independence from Spain
    A July poll found that just 41 per cent of Catalans favoured an independent state.

    Under the terms of the new laws, the Catalan parliament will declare independence within 48 hours of a Yes vote. There will be no minimum turnout requirement to make the result binding.
    Any attempt to prevent the referendum is destined to fail because democracy is unstoppable, says Carles Puigdemont, Catalan President.
    The Spanish constitution states that the country is indivisible. What do you think is going to happen? the independence, what does it mean for the future of the region?

    What about Scotland? what goes for Catalonia goes for Scotland? Scotland and Catalonia: The Quest for Independence - The Corner

    Well,
    My starting argument is that I see nothing wrong with the Independence of Catalonia.The desire for self government goes back to centuries, centuries before La Diada, and even before the the military occupation by Felipe V's troops in 1714.
    Symptomatically, there is a rebirth of the Catalan language, a key marker of identity in the region. Franco dictatorship tried to present Spain as an ethnically and politically homogeneous state. One of the first victims was the Catalan President,Lluís Companys,executed in Barcelona. With the end of the Spanish War, Catalan cultural and political institutions were suppressed, and the Catalan language was banned in the school systems.After the death of Franco, the 1978 constitution recognised linguistic plurality, Catalan is now compulsory in schools.

    A very interesting article, excerpts,
    The Case for Catalonia's Secession from Spain John Hopkins University,
    Europe's Stateless Nations in the Era of Globalization

    Many Catalans do not consider themselves Spanish but exclusively Catalan. Such feelings raise eyebrows in other parts of Spain, Europe and elsewhere, but are widely accepted as legitimate within Catalonia.
    There are broadly three main arguments for the independence of Catalonia.
    The first is that since the Catalan cultural and language is neither understood nor accepted in Spain (and so neither protected nor fostered), the best way forward is an independent state. This results from three centuries of linguistic and cultural discrimination, which reached its pinnacle under Gen. Francisco Franco's 36-year dictatorship.

    The second one says that a well-defined political entity such as Catalonia should be mature enough to govern itself with its own voice in the European Union or the United Nations in order to address the problems specific to it.

    Finally, there is the belief that Catalonia would be better off economically by seceding. In particular, proponents of the last argument refer to the fact that Catalonia pays much more into Spain's central treasury than it gets back (subsequently referred to here as the fiscal imbalance) and to the excessive bureaucracy resulting from the current administrative arrangements.

    ... In conclusion, there is no objective economic reason to believe that a hypothetical Catalan state should not be viable from an economic perspective. If Slovenia has performed well since seceding from Yugoslavia with its much smaller and less diversified post-communist economy, an independent Catalonia should also be able to do well economically. In the end, the success of a Catalan state will depend on its own government. Independence will be good for Catalans only if the Catalan state would be able to pursue sound macroeconomic policies that foster growth and economic welfare.

    If Spain is not big enough to tackle global problems and not small enough to properly deal with Catalan specificity, then it should change or disappear. So far, it has shown no willingness to change. As professor Sala-i-Martín puts it: "at the end of the day, states and governments should serve the people and not the other way around."

    We have seen how the European Union is calling into question the existence of old centralized European states such as Spain. In this context, becoming a small less bureaucratic state within the European Union would result in increased economic efficiency. It would also be the best way for Catalan interests to be represented in the process of European construction - as opposed to being represented by a Spanish government that has repeatedly refrained from defending important Catalan interests

    The process of European integration also provides a significant argument for the independence of Catalonia, Flanders or Scotland: administrative efficiency. The maintenance of the state's intermediary role between the European and local powers results in higher transaction costs that hamper economic development. Particularly in federal or semi-federal states like Spain or Belgium, keeping a central state that has less and less to offer to its citizens is becoming more expensive to maintain and very complex to manage. Thus, secession appears as an economically desirable option because it would result in lower costs and complexity that would reduce the burden carried by the Catalan economy.

    We have seen how the European Union is calling into question the existence of old centralized European states such as Spain. In this context, becoming a small less bureaucratic state within the European Union would result in increased economic efficiency. It would also be the best way for Catalan interests to be represented in the process of European construction - as opposed to being represented by a Spanish government that has repeatedly refrained from defending important Catalan interests (e.g. language official recognition). Finally, the European Union is de facto lowering the potential cost of independence by providing Catalonia with a free trade area, as well as saving the need to incur costs such as creating a new currency.

    No referendum on the question of independence will be a fully rational exercise. Independence from Spain is not simply a matter of economics or administrative rationality. Identity issues, in Catalonia and elsewhere, are highly complex. Some might want to be part of Spain even with an unfair fiscal treatment; others might want independence even if the cost is high. However, this does not negate the fact that economically, independence would not only be viable, but also significantly advantageous. Catalans might want to vote from their pockets rather than from their hearts.
    Please share your thoughts.
    Last edited by Iskar; September 07, 2017 at 01:25 PM. Reason: additional material added as requested
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  2. #2
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Yes, another province of EU craft out from old is always good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    What's Madrid going to do if they pass a referendum as such? Roll the tanks into Barcelona Soviet-style, like the 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia?

    The Spanish constitution doesn't even allow for this stuff, so Madrid has to do something. It would certainly inspire all the other separatist movements, Scotland being the biggest, but how about Northern Ireland? If not certain regions of France and Italy. The Balkans are already a nightmare; what's next? Round two?

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    The Spanish constitution doesn't even allow for this stuff, so Madrid has to do something. It would certainly inspire all the other separatist movements, Scotland being the biggest, but how about Northern Ireland? If not certain regions of France and Italy. The Balkans are already a nightmare; what's next? Round two?
    What is the point if they are all EU citizens? The EU citizens of Province of Spain is attacking the EU citizens of Province of Catalonia because Province of Catalonia is leaving... what, EU?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    What is the point if they are all EU citizens? The EU citizens of Province of Spain is attacking the EU citizens of Province of Catalonia because Province of Catalonia is leaving... what, EU?
    Would Catalonia still be part of the EU after separation? How does that just automatically work? Certainly they'd have to apply for it first, an application I'd assume would be readily rejected to squash the hopes of any other separatist movement.

    Then again I'm an American, so what do I know. Someone a little more well-versed in this stuff will come and explain, no doubt.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Would Catalonia still be part of the EU after separation? How does that just automatically work? Certainly they'd have to apply for it first, an application I'd assume would be readily rejected to squash the hopes of any other separatist movement.
    I thought EU gives special guarantee of EU membership to Scotland if it became independent recently... Either way even Madrid wants to vote no base on its feel, corporations, international (yeah more German pressure) and even its own domestic pressure (as many Spanish citizens would be working in Catalonia region too) would probably force its brain to vote yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  7. #7
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Would Catalonia still be part of the EU after separation? How does that just automatically work? Certainly they'd have to apply for it first, an application I'd assume would be readily rejected to squash the hopes of any other separatist movement.
    Neither the European Union as an institution nor the countries that form part of the European Union will support (or have supported) the independence of Catalonia and its subsequent integration into the European Union (one enters the European union after a unanimous vote).

    Difficult to find Spanish press that can be called impartial, but this seems certainly true. Brussels insists that an independent Catalonia would be outside the EU

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Since the start of the Catalan sovereignty process, the EU executive has not moved a bit about its position on potential EU membership: it would have to take the same steps as any other country that wanted to belong to the community bloc. That is, Catalonia would have to start from scratch the procedure of entry to the Union without Brussels contemplating the creation of any exceptional shortcut. If so, the EU spokesman stressed today that he would express his opinion on the legal consequences under EU law, "at the request of the Member State and detailing a precise scenario."

    Pretty important detail in my opinion, we would be talking about the integration in the European union of an illegally created state.

    Totally personal opinion: Catalan independentism collects votes of people dissatisfied with the corruption in madrid (forgetting the really scandalous cases of catalan corruption, 3% case i.e.) and the right-wing political party currently ruling Spain, the PP (when Catalonia until very recently was governed by the center right, CiU, many times supporting the PP).
    "Vote independence to get rid of the corruption of the fascist Spain". Sentimentalism (nationalism) aside, that is the level of argumentation.
    Last edited by mishkin; September 07, 2017 at 02:17 AM.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    That article was published in 2014, recently German foreign minster actually warn China not to intervene "One Europe" policy, suggesting EU starts realizing the foreign competition it faces and only One Europe can compete with other superpowers (perhaps thanks to Trump). I highly doubt EU would not let an independent Catalonia join EU as that would mean it left a fifth corner on Europe for other superpower to exploit, endanger Europe's safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  9. #9
    Gäiten's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    You can bet that if the Referendum for Independence is successfull, the EU will offer Integration into the EU immediately.
    It will be another step to the sundering of European national states into jealous minor countries who will be very dependent on EU Money.

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    That article was published in 2014, recently German foreign minster actually warn China not to intervene "One Europe" policy, suggesting EU starts realizing the foreign competition it faces and only One Europe can compete with other superpowers (perhaps thanks to Trump). I highly doubt EU would not let an independent Catalonia join EU as that would mean it left a fifth corner on Europe for other superpower to exploit, endanger Europe's safety.
    No offense, but the idea of Catalonia under the Chinese sphere of influence seems so surreal to me ...

    So the European union will allow the split of European states and their immediate reincorporation to the European union in order not to lose power? I do not know Rick. Are not we taking this as something terribly simple? Forgetting the tremendous cost that will mean for both Spain and Catalonia a rupture and a (catalonian) reintegration?

    By the way, as far as I know* the people who advocate for independence and who defend that to get it is legitimate to break the rules (spanish constitution or catalan parlament rules) would be in charge of redacting the census, locate the ballot boxes and count the votes. Everything fine, everything really democratic.

    *No form of neutral control, united nations or anything like that has been requested.
    Last edited by mishkin; September 07, 2017 at 03:46 AM.

  11. #11
    Almogaver's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    By the way, as far as I know* the people who advocate for independence and who defend that to get it is legitimate to break the rules (spanish constitution or catalan parlament rules) would be in charge of redacting the census, locate the ballot boxes and count the votes. Everything fine, everything really democratic.

    *No form of neutral control, united nations or anything like that has been requested.
    It's not true what you say about international observers. Please see below for further information:

    https://www.referendum.cat/call-for-international-monitoring/#observers

    You also imply that it won't be a fair vote. Also not true: https://www.referendum.cat/en/electoral-comissions/

    More info: https://www.referendum.cat/en/

    Ballot sample:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


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  12. #12
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    International observers selected by those promoting the referendum. Seriously you do not think that it is a problem that those who advocate an option (independence) are in charge of the voting process?

    Alberto Garzón (I.U. leader, spanish left):
    In @ununida we will not support the law of the referendum that will be voted on today in the Catalan parliament. We defend the right to decide with guarantees. (tweet)

    Our dearest president mariano rajoy right now saying that the referendum will not be held and the prosecution begins to take legal action against all those who have not complied with the constitutional court ruling that a referendum would be unconstitutional.

    Regarding yesterdays "law": The Constitutional Court will annul the referendum law this afternoon.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    (Google translator) The Constitutional Court will meet in full at seven this afternoon to admit the appeals of unconstitutionality presented by the Government against the laws approved by the Parlament for the celebration of the referendum of 1-0. The Government has complied with all the procedures to request the preventive annulment of the rule and already has the opinions of the Council of State that requires the law in this type of cases.

    The Constitutional Court has admitted at its morning meeting the first recourse filed by the Government against the processing of the Referendum Law. That first document drafted by lawyers of the State charged against the processing of the Law of referendum that last night approved the Parlament.
    Last edited by mishkin; September 07, 2017 at 07:52 AM.

  13. #13
    Almogaver's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    o_O The government is responsible for the referendum just like any other government in the world would be to organise their referendum. Wasn't PSOE (then in government) in charge of the NATO referendum and at the same time defending a YES vote? Wasn't the Spanish government in charge of the European Constitution referendum and at the same time advocating for a YES vote? Wasn't the Scottish goverment in favour of a YES vote (and the British government in favour of NO) and both organised it?

    The Spanish government, as usual, does not want to give a political solution to this issue. They rely on legal action. Even if they manage to stop the referendum, the problem won't go away.

    Alberto Garzón... how is he supposed to do that? Will IU (or Podemos) win a Spanish election with 2/3 of the seats in order to modify the constitution so it includes the right for any nation in Spain to secede, then call elections again and win again with 2/3 majority again in order to ratify it? Yeah, right.

    Edit: By the way, Podemos in Catalonia is in favour of the referendum and support NO. This has caused a split in CSQEP party.
    Last edited by Almogaver; September 07, 2017 at 09:03 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Will result in a "No" anyway.

  15. #15
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Almogaver View Post
    o_O The government is responsible for the referendum just like any other government in the world would be to organise their referendum. Wasn't PSOE (then in government) in charge of the NATO referendum and at the same time defending a YES vote? Wasn't the Spanish government in charge of the European Constitution referendum and at the same time advocating for a YES vote? Wasn't the Scottish goverment in favour of a YES vote (and the British government in favour of NO) and both organised it?

    The Spanish government, as usual, does not want to give a political solution to this issue. They rely on legal action. Even if they manage to stop the referendum, the problem won't go away.

    Alberto Garzón... how is he supposed to do that? Will IU (or Podemos) win a Spanish election with 2/3 of the seats in order to modify the constitution so it includes the right for any nation in Spain to secede, then call elections again and win again with 2/3 majority again in order to ratify it? Yeah, right.

    Edit: By the way, Podemos in Catalonia is in favour of the referendum and support NO. This has caused a split in CSQEP party.
    I am sorry but I, like many other people, do not trust people who tries to carry out almost in secret their agenda towards an illegal process.

    You seem to assume that I am against the referendum. I, like Alberto Garzón (IU), like Pablo Iglesias (Podemos), believe that the referendum should be celebrated when it can be celebrated, not when a part of the Catalan Parliament thinks that it must be celebrated in spite of committing an illegality.

    If it bothers you that the times in politics can be long and the alliances complicated, I'm sorry. Remember that 10 years ago no one was considering the possibility of a referendum in Catalonia. (Even Rajoy said today that the laws were not immutable).
    Last edited by mishkin; September 07, 2017 at 12:14 PM.

  16. #16
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Additional info and arguments added to the OP. Thanks ~Iskar


    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    It would certainly inspire all the other separatist movements, Scotland being the biggest, but how about Northern Ireland?
    Well, read above. Ironically, let's keep in mind that Scotland was blackmailed by the EU (and the UK) before the first referendum,
    Jose Manuel Barroso: nearly impossible for Scotland to join EU

    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I highly doubt EU would not let an independent Catalonia join EU
    Obviously, and the same goes for Scotland.


    Last edited by Iskar; September 07, 2017 at 01:24 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  17. #17
    Almogaver's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I am sorry but I, like many other people, do not trust people who tries to carry out almost in secret their agenda towards an illegal process.

    You seem to assume that I am against the referendum. I, like Alberto Garzón (IU), like Pablo Iglesias (Podemos), believe that the referendum should be celebrated when it can be celebrated, not when a part of the Catalan Parliament thinks that it must be celebrated in spite of committing an illegality.

    If it bothers you that the times in politics can be long and the alliances complicated, I'm sorry. Remember that 10 years ago no one was considering the possibility of a referendum in Catalonia. (Even Rajoy said today that the laws were not immutable).
    ok.
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  18. #18
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Ludicus, that guy is as out of date in his arguments as biased. Although there are segments of Spanish (and Catalan) society widely Francoist, the degree of autonomy in Catalonia (total freedom in education for example) is enormous. They even have their own security forces, reputed to be pretty fascist / tough if you ask me. The typical Spanish does not feel any aversion for Catalonia (despite the recent stupidities on both sides) and catalonia is no longer opressed.

    I would go point by point but seriously, what that guy says are stupid things above all. Yes I want to mention that t I find it shocking that someone can applaud the proindependentist propaganda that says that the taxes of Catalonia go to areas of Spain more disadvantaged. If that were true (would be another debate), what about the solidarity?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Absurd. Independence is selfish.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Catalonia Independence Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    International observers selected by those promoting the referendum. Seriously you do not think that it is a problem that those who advocate an option (independence) are in charge of the voting process?
    Who else would be in position to request international observers? Madrid? lol


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