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Thread: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

  1. #41
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Catholic interpretation isn't so much around "Jesus died for our Sins". That's more often found in Protestantism which is English speaking, and in turn is the more popular spread opinion on Anglo Saxon environments.

    Catholic Church interpretation is that Jesus died and resurrected to pave way and show us how to achieve Eternal Life and ultimately conquer Death.

    Which is consistent with Psalms.
    fkizz,

    Rome is quite wrong because what it then infers is that Christ's death and resurrection was insuficient to take sin off man. That thinking means that works plays a part in redemption which it does not on the part of man. Psalm 32:1-10 and Romans 4:7 express the power of Christ's blood to man for whom that blood was shed. It's all of God so that as Paul says, no man can boast about working out his own salvation.

  2. #42
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    Bascis, your logic implies that after Christ there is no more sin whatsoever. Otherwise his death would be, as you put it, insufficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    In Biblical Hebrew, to sin is to miss. For example, the word can also be used like this:

    "Of all this force, there were seven hundred picked men who were left-handed; every one could sling a stone at a hair, and not miss." ~Judges 20:16

    Used metaphorically, it is to miss the target of a behavioral ideal. Although I'm not sure if Paul understood sin in the same way or not.
    The Orthodox church has a very similar view of Sin. Sin is failure to be more like Christ.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; October 27, 2017 at 11:56 AM.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Bascis, your logic implies that after Christ there is no more sin whatsoever. Otherwise his death would be, as you put it, insufficient.
    The Orthodox church has a very similar view of Sin. Sin is failure to be more like Christ.
    Pretty much this. Albeit can be disputed that some things are considered a Sin despite no New Testament mention.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    fkizz,
    Psalm 32:1-10 and Romans 4:7
    Of course those who are forgiven are blessed. To be sinless 100% is impossible so technically any good seed to be separated from the filth will still have some impurities aswell.
    Bible is full of passages on Lord being Merciful, despite being Zealous, so there is no passage that proves that happens 100% because of Christ sacrifice, but rather a default of God. Meaning no passage forcing you to look at the Son rather than the Father in the Trinity.

    Now a clear indusputable reference to The Son;

    Psalm 22:1 KJV
    Last edited by fkizz; October 27, 2017 at 01:43 PM.
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  4. #44
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Bascis, your logic implies that after Christ there is no more sin whatsoever. Otherwise his death would be, as you put it, insufficient.

    The Orthodox church has a very similar view of Sin. Sin is failure to be more like Christ.
    Settra,

    No, that's not what I am implying. When Christ died on the cross, He shed blood for only those that the Father has given Him and recorded in the book of life. In other words only them that are born again will enter heaven. The thing is that once regeneration is complete one becomes a child of God bought and paid for by Christ's blood. That does not mean that a Christian cannot fall into sin but as long as it is not continual and willful he or she is covered by Christ's blood so much so that the Father is able to say that He never knew them to having been sinners. See Hebrews on that. The race that Paul talks of is not one Christian trying to outdo another Christian, rather any Christian racing to beat the temptations that Satan will put into their mind for of all the things that God did not take away from the regenerate is the memory and it is this that Satan uses to try to drag people back into sin. It's why Jesus quite emphatically tells us not to look back but look to the future that is in Him. That's the power of the blood.

  5. #45
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    CommodusIV,

    OK then, do you believe that Jesus took sin upon Himself, thus becoming a sinner, to pay for the sins of many?
    I believe that too many centuries have passed between when the event was supposed to happen and now for that story to be capable of being taken at face value. While it's possible such events did happen, it's also possible that quite a bit of rewriting of the events happened from potential witnesses, from the religious authorities at the time, and from translators, authorities and bookkeepers later on who did have a fairly strong monopoly over biblical interpretation.

    Something along those lines may have happened, but too much "Man" has been placed in between.
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



  6. #46
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    I believe that too many centuries have passed between when the event was supposed to happen and now for that story to be capable of being taken at face value. While it's possible such events did happen, it's also possible that quite a bit of rewriting of the events happened from potential witnesses, from the religious authorities at the time, and from translators, authorities and bookkeepers later on who did have a fairly strong monopoly over biblical interpretation.

    Something along those lines may have happened, but too much "Man" has been placed in between.
    CommodusIV,

    Your thoughts are but a continuance of what many actually thought just after Jesus' death and resurrection wherein even His disciples were sceptical until He revealed Himself to them. Not until the day of Pentecost did it all sink in when the power of God came upon them all. From that point on they actually realised what the meaning of the last supper was all about and so it is this experience that the born again also go through when God regenerates them. You see it is faith, the faith of Jesus Christ that is imputed to them in the moments of their regeneration so that they can believe what He did at the cross was for them, that He did take away their sin, their separation from God by becoming them on the cross. That message is the same today as ever it was and will continue to be until the eve of the last day. That was my own experience.

  7. #47
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    CommodusIV,

    Your thoughts are but a continuance of what many actually thought just after Jesus' death and resurrection wherein even His disciples were sceptical until He revealed Himself to them. Not until the day of Pentecost did it all sink in when the power of God came upon them all. From that point on they actually realised what the meaning of the last supper was all about and so it is this experience that the born again also go through when God regenerates them. You see it is faith, the faith of Jesus Christ that is imputed to them in the moments of their regeneration so that they can believe what He did at the cross was for them, that He did take away their sin, their separation from God by becoming them on the cross. That message is the same today as ever it was and will continue to be until the eve of the last day. That was my own experience.
    You experienced his death and resurrection, and two thousand years or so of life afterwards?
    With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
    Spoiler for wait what dragons?



  8. #48
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    You experienced his death and resurrection, and two thousand years or so of life afterwards?
    CommodusIV,

    One evening around tenish I lay down in my bed to read a little Scripture before putting the lights out. As I lay there with my Bible on my chest what happened next is quite true. The next thing I knew was that I was up in the air and traveling forward in a darkened atmosphere and fear struck me then because I didn't know what was happening. At a certain point I seemed to stop at something below me which I couldn't make out because it was dark and it was then I saw by the whites of the eyes and the colour of inside the mouth that it was a man. His mouth was saying something but what I couldn't hear but it was obvious that it was not to me but over my shoulder to someone or something else. I was shaking like a leaf and tried to shrink back but at that moment i suddenly sat up in bed covered in sweat and still shaking. The time was around six in the morning.

    I got up and washed myself down and then headed for the garage to fill up the car. The guy that owned the garage on seeing me said, " You look like you've seen a ghost." I told him what had happened and he advised me to go and speak with the pastor about it to which I said, " No." The next Sunday when some of us were up at the manse for the usual coffee someone started talking about the crucifixion and befor they had a chance to get deeply into it I spoke out telling of my experience. The room went deadly silent as I related what I had seen and I want to stress I knew nothing about the crucifixion in any detail as I was only converted but a few days before my experience. Eventually the pastor's wife said that I had been given an insight as to what Jesus endured in His dying moments. From that night on I poured over Scripture on anything connected to the crucifixion and realised that God had transported me all the way back in time to witness Jesus' last words before He died. I'll never ever forget that blackened face as it looked past me uttering what I can only read of. It was nothing like the fancy paintings that one can see.

    What I have related I have done before on these threads so in answer to your question I can honestly say that Yes, I saw Him die.

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