I still want to know GCB's opinion why the equation is wrong. But he just ducked the point.
Comes Rei Militaris
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
I still want to know GCB's opinion why the equation is wrong. But he just ducked the point.
One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
I think you're barking at wrong tree here.
From historical perspective, The whole thing about death and afterlife was different in Judaism at that time, and Christianity is indeed a continuation of Judaism. The idea is that when we die, we're shipped off into Sheol-limbo, sometimes also interpreted as kind of purgatory-until the end of the Earth. Only then we're sorted out, with unworthy being scrapped in Gehenna. This is the price we paid for the "hereditary sin". And here comes Jesus, as saviour. With him, born without carrying this hereditary sin, but dying as if he was, the chain is broken. Sin is now choice. And price for it is still Sheol and prospect of Gehenna. Death of soul. This is what Ezekiel means. Not death of body.
The whole mess with Jesus is indeed opening another possibility, eternal life. This is anotherthing...
The whole business with hell is caused by translation issues, mulching together Sheol and Gehenna, and early church wanting something rather less esoteric as threat to keep peasants in line.
Disclaimer, I am still not Christian. I still believe religions as whole to be a, but I am willing to think within their mythologies as an intellectual excersise. This is the result of one such excersise.
By the way...you're still affirming the consequent.
Last edited by Sar1n; September 09, 2017 at 03:45 PM.
Decanus
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
I am using the law of the excluded middle.Originally Posted by Sar1n
I think you're barking at wrong tree here.
From historical perspective, The whole thing about death and afterlife was different in Judaism at that time, and Christianity is indeed a continuation of Judaism. The idea is that when we die, we're shipped off into Sheol-limbo, sometimes also interpreted as kind of purgatory-until the end of the Earth. Only then we're sorted out, with unworthy being scrapped in Gehenna. This is the price we paid for the "hereditary sin". And here comes Jesus, as saviour. With him, born without carrying this hereditary sin, but dying as if he was, the chain is broken. Sin is now choice. And price for it is still Sheol and prospect of Gehenna. Death of soul. This is what Ezekiel means. Not death of body.
The whole mess with Jesus is indeed opening another possibility, eternal life. This is anotherthing...
The whole business with hell is caused by translation issues, mulching together Sheol and Gehenna, and early church wanting something rather less esoteric as threat to keep peasants in line.
Disclaimer, I am still not Christian. I still believe religions as whole to be a
By the way...you're still affirming the consequent.
The old church misinterpreting words was likely intentional so as to gain more money from the gullible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=668D_MeV1nY
Regards
DL
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
Gnostic Christian Bishop,
What is this old church you are talking about? The church of the Bible goes all the way back to Abel, the Hebrew meaning being gathering or congregation. The thing is we aren't told whether Abel was married but if he was then his wife would be counted as covered by his righteousness and so there we get, " Where any two or three are gathered in My name I will be amongst them." My words but more or less what the Bible teaches. Now these people weren't called Christians then but they were called saints so in effect the gatherings or churches were there even then. So, what were they gathered for? Answer, to carry the promise of God that a " seed " would come to contend with Satan for the souls of men. That was the message and they believed God. That message was fulfilled in Jesus Christ coming to earth as a human, paying the price for sin on the cross and now back in glory only awaiting His return to finalise all things. There has been no misinterpretation of that message right up until this day by those whose lives have been changed although there has been much misinterpretation by all them that don't want to know for whatever reason both inside and outside of church systems.
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
OP, the answer to your question is Ressurection after 3 days.
It will be seen that, as used, the word Fascism is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
-George Orwell
Just a sausage
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
he came back, but he still died first, and it was pretty bad, so does that really matter?
and doesnt dying for the sins of others not imply that you dont die for your own sins?
the sacrifical lamb, literally and metaphorically, isnt killed for having sinned, isnt that the whole point of the jesus?
oc, if no one is free of sin, then jesus died for his sins, like everybody else.
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
As I said before, Jesus became sin. In other words He took on sin into His own body so that as He hung on the cross, the Father's wrath could fall on Him on behalf of all them whose sin was now in Him thus satisfying both the Father and the Law that demanded death for it. The moment He cried out, " It is finished," and His body taken down and buried that body no longer had any sin upon it. In other words it reverted to the sinless Jesus Christ He was before and so He could rise again and take up His place beside the Father but not until He had shown Himself to be alive before some 4/500 people. Some day the whole world will realise that but not just yet.
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
If Jesus is not the Son of YHWH then he is as irrelevant as Thoth in Egyptian mythology. Therefore as you don't argue about the inaccuracy of Thoth as determining your sins, only a moron would rail against an unimportant figure.
If Jesus is the Son of YHWH, and you commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then Jesus tells us it cannot be forgiven. It is the only such sin in the Bible.
Maybe some of you have condemned yourself already. But what is worse, some daily try to lead others to commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Lucifer wants you to be eternally separated from YHWH. I wouldn't trust anything originating from Lucifer.
Gnostics believer Lucifer is an emancipator. Therefore, I would flee from such malevolence.
Jesus cannot be merely a great moral teacher. If he claimed to be the Son of God, and isn't, then he is a liar or a lunatic. Neither a liar or lunatic deserves your attention by definition.
The only other possibility is he might be the Son of YHWH. So billions have considered the possibility.
The majority opinion is not necessarily correct, but that doesn't excuse the ignorant and the rebel and the fool who ignores huge evidence. The Bible is the most documented series of books in our history. It is worthy of consideration.
It is not prudent or rational to discount it out of ignorance. That is bigotry.
The Bible says if :
1. Believe that Jesus is the Son of YHWH.
2. Repent of your sins.
3. Believe that he rose from the dead.
4. Accept that his death on the cross redeemed you by grace.
5. Then give at least a cup of water to a child ie commit to altruism.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x_12ijDJaQc
Then you will be saved. There is nothing that requires you to 100 % believe with no doubts.
There is nothing about being perfect.
There is nothing about being sinless.
There is nothing about 45 minutes of a church service.
There is nothing about becoming judgmental.
Frankly, while baptism is a sign of your acceptance performed in a ritual, baptism is not even required.
Right this second, you who read this could be saved by Jesus' grace. It takes mere minutes in the quiet of your home.
So the question is, "Why haven't you asked for salvation?" No journey is so easy as accepting salvation by grace.
Nothing is more important.
And even if there were no afterlife, nothing is more important. Not even food and water and air to breathe.
Last edited by RubiconDecision; October 10, 2017 at 11:27 AM.
Just a sausage
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
makes sense, but only if the body can be a carrier for sin. shouldnt the soul be carrying that, in reverse a body without a soul should hardly be able to carry sin. if you get a new body, can you leave old sin behind?
what happend to sin before jesus, was it left behind in the body? then how is one judged after death for ones sins? how can we still sin, if jesus has taken it all, is only our body sinful? gods wrath just falling on jesus' body seems a bit lackluster, what about damnation, thats on your eternal soul, not your body.
so, yes, if the whole sacrifical lamb allegory is taken to its extreme, but then, its barely an allegory anymore.
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
Yeshua Mashiach (Jesus the Christ) cannot take away your sins unless you give them up.
You have Free Will.
You choose Hell which is eternal seperation from YHWH (God). God will not forced you to become a Christian. Without Jesus, then to enter Heaven you must be without sin. So it is puzzling why you would intentionally choose Hell.
In effect, Jesus broke the power of sin which is falling short of the Law by definition. So everyone could enter Heaven quite easily. It only takes a minute to accept Jesus. Why not do it?
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14
Last edited by RubiconDecision; October 11, 2017 at 08:45 AM.
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
HannibalExMachina,
When man fell from grace, body and soul were included, why? Because the body without a soul is useless. They are integral to one another. Therefore when one is born again and death comes both will be raised but the body will be immediately changed, why? Because flesh and blood cannot enter heaven meaning that the soul must have a new heavenly body.
There wasn't a time before Jesus, because He is God or God the Son within the Trinity that is made of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He under authority was our Creator and being God, He therefore has no beginning and no end or to put it more eloquently He is the beginning and the end so there couldn't have been sin before Him. When the judgement comes everyone that ever lived and who are still living will be judged, the church first and then all the others. Yes even the church will have to give account for its deeds and I am talking here of all the born again people where they will be rewarded for their various fruits on behalf of Christ. Then the others will be judged and sent into the lake of fire to be tormented forever.
Jesus did not die for everyone but only for them that the Father gave Him, their names being listed in the book of life.
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
Want to really ponder an imponderable?
If Jesus died on the cross, and was the Son of God, and did indeed take upon himself ALL SIN for ALL TIME so much that GOD could not look upon his visage, then Jesus already took your sin, my sin, everyones' sins in the past, present, and future. He knew what you would do, yet willingly did this act of perfect GRACE.
So really the secret is your sins are forgiven...already. GOD is just waiting for you to realize that you are forgiven. But also that you are guilty and only because GOD is love perfected then can GOD do this.
So it's not like when you were young and stupid and hurt someone you loved, and worried that they would discover your betrayal, or be crushed by your betrayal, and hence afraid to see them. Oh no. GOD knows and still loves you in spite of the errors you have made.
So all you have to do is admit your errors and ask to be forgiven and then believe that Jesus died and rose again to redeem the world.
There is no guilt trip. GOD is not mad at you. GOD is not going to punish you. GOD will forgive you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w7c-XY695hk
GOD is patiently waiting. The LORD of all creation is waiting on you. You are important to GOD. Jesus didn't just die for the world. Jesus died for you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TUFHdUAOmag
GOD will not condemn you for hurting that woman and abusing her trust.
GOD will not condemn you for stealing that money.
GOD will not condemn you for being cruel to your parents.
GOD will not condemn you for lying and betraying your friend.
What GOD wants is for you to get that burden off your back. Then you can live an abundant life.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7sBuajPzBTw
Love is Here.
Last edited by RubiconDecision; October 11, 2017 at 07:37 PM.
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
There are things in what RD says that are true and things that are not and the first is to take away the allusion that man has the choice over God in salvation. This is a distortion that is used many times by so-called evangelists and ministers. If all were saved by their sins being paid for at the cross then all should have the Holy Spirit in them and all have access to heaven, but that is not the case. Why did Jesus say, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." and " All that the Father gave Me or has given Me, I have lost not one except the man of perdition." or as Peter writes, " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and all your family...." with the important phrase, " As many as the Lord God shall call." Yet Jesus gave us a picture of how wrong that sort of teaching is when He quoted the parables of the sheep and goats as well as the wheat and tares. In both cases there are the saved mixed with a people who only think they are saved. The secret of course lies in the phrase, being born again.
Most church systems sprinkle babies and sometimes adults and say that they are now Christian but where in a little babe is the awareness of being a sinner? Where is the broken and contrite heart that must lead to repentence so that God can renew that person by rebirth? That is what these systems have missed so that the body count is increased. For a person to be born again change must be shown and experienced in that person's life. Believing comes after the experience of acknowledging how sinful one was and that belief coupled to faith is a gift of God at the moment of conversion. Baptism, whether sprinkle or immersion in water is only a sign and no more. That's why John the Baptist said that he can baptise with water but that Jesus would baptise with the Holy Spirit which was experimental and essential to be a Christian.
So, when thinking about these words, " For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." my eyes see that perishing is authentic for why else would Scripture say so if that were not the case? So in saying all you have to do is not quite as the Scriptures tell us, why? Because the onus is on man here and not on God. If Peter says, " As many as the Lord God shall call," that puts quite a different face on it. It is all of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit doing what each have to do to draw man to the point of where he can't go on anymore because of the burdens he carries in his heart. That is when Jesus' actions on the cross come into play on a person who probably never thought much if anything about it. That's the grace of God in action and has been since Abel was declared righteous before Him.
my horse for a unicode
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
OP's argument is defective until he answers a very clear question that was posed to him early on, page 1.
Seems like he's deflecting anything he can't easily explain away, so really, is there a point to this debate?
With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
Spoiler for wait what dragons?:
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
Commodus1V,
Could it be that the lad was only reflecting what many others do and that is that no-one can get away from God? He always crops up when least expected. Believe it or not He even had you comment here.
my horse for a unicode
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
Heh, well, He doesn't need to work very hard to get me to comment just about anywhere, so bully for Him on that achievement. >.>
With great power, comes great chonky dragons to feed enemies of the state. --Targaryens?
Spoiler for wait what dragons?:
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
CommodusIV,
OK then, do you believe that Jesus took sin upon Himself, thus becoming a sinner, to pay for the sins of many?
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
You are mixing up statements about a transcendental soul -independent of the body- with rules regarding the way YHWH ekes out punishments for sinners on earth. Firstly, Jesus soul is not commonly understood to have died. Therefore, the statement regarding the deaht of the soul due to ones own sins does not apply in the least, and it does not support the argument that Jesus must have sinned since he corporeally died.
Secondly, the one quote regarding corporeal death only stresses the rule that someone is not put to death for someone else's sin; it does not say that someone will not be killed for something other than sin.
Your evidence does not support your argument.
Aditionally, this point is completely moot from a common Christian perspective, since trinity is the standard interpretation; in this case god has died for our sins in the form of his fleshy avatar people know as Jesus; and I'd say he can do with himself however he wants without breaking any rules regarding the treatment of his human subjects.
Last edited by Campylobacter jejuni; October 25, 2017 at 12:23 PM.
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
Campylobacter jejuni,
GNB has no argument other than to pluck out what he thinks are lines that fortify his position which are taken mostly out of context. In real terms there is no such thing as a gnostic christian for in the very words of Jesus one is either in His mind or one is not as to be recognisable as to those that are His and those that are not.
Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?
Catholic interpretation isn't so much around "Jesus died for our Sins". That's more often found in Protestantism which is English speaking, and in turn is the more popular spread opinion on Anglo Saxon environments.
Catholic Church interpretation is that Jesus died and resurrected to pave way and show us how to achieve Eternal Life and ultimately conquer Death.
Which is consistent with Psalms.
It will be seen that, as used, the word Fascism is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
-George Orwell
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