New Shieldwall ability

[Paladin94610]

I see Gallic Nobles (early) use the new shieldwall ability. Although they are a spear armed 'phalanx' unit, when they go into shieldwall/phalanx, the first three rows switched to swords? Is it supposed to happen? Shouldnt they have spears instead when they into shieldwall?

[KAM 2150]

Yes, they should use swords.

[son of romans]

But still...out of shildwall they still fight with swords...maybe shildwall should be a sword infantry formation if this is mechanic of the game...

[Paladin94610]

imm.. that's what I meant to say. They continue to use swords even out of shieldwall formation, being classed as spear unit seems to be wrong.

[Frosthammer]

Yes, they should use swords.

By the way. There are only "primary melee weapon" column in the land_unit table, and when spear armed ("primary melee weapon"=spear) unit switch to sword - this is only animation, or units use another (secondary) weapon with different stats ant there are some other table which describes secondary weapon usage?

[Dresden]

They are listed as a phalanx type right? Not spear or sword.

[Paladin94610]

yes, but in fact shieldwall ability not only give defense bonus, but bonus vs. cav too (+225%)

[Dresden]

The idea is a mixed unit I think. Sword in front and spear support from back.

[KAM 2150]

Ideally first row would use swords and rest spears but game engine forces first 3 ranks to use same animation. That is why first 3 rows have swords. Planned version would have first rank with swords and shields up front, second with spears and shields at an angle and rest with spears and shield held up. Obviously we had to pick only possible solution. They are a mixed weapon units but they need reach of spears or they would just stand still and do nothing when facing hoplites and pikes (which is why oire sword unit don't have it).

[KYREAPER]

Why do shield wall units have a higher bonus vs cavalry though?
They have more bonus than Hoplite phalanx (both while in formation).

A spear/shield would do better than a sword/shield versus horses.
An entire unit of spears would do better than a unit with swords in the first row with spears behind.

[KAM 2150]

I think it was a mistake when I was toying with different values as I wanted them to have sword damage for base value but increased reach when in formation, which did not work. Probably I added them anti cav bonus since swords did not had it and forgot to take it away after I gave them spear entry again.

[KYREAPER]

I have another question.

So the shield wall is AWESOME. I love the thrusting animations, as it reminds me of Roman legionnaire tactics.

Is there any plans to give the Roman LEGIONARIES the shieldwall formation? Considering the Gladius was a thrusting weapon.
Or would that be silly considering it would make them useless versus pikes, and look wierd since the Gladius is such a short weapon(stabbing air).

[Dresden]

Sadly Romans just don't work well with the pike behavior. The pike behavior is the only thing the AI seems to really use and yet it has a ton of problems with it, as evidenced by things you will see hoplites and pikes do. I think KAM has been working on ideas for Romans but so far none has worked to satisfaction in taking into account all the variables - ie how they fight vs hoplites, normal infantry, pikes, cavalry etc and how they move, how the AI uses them, blah blah

[KAM 2150]

Pike behaviour would only work for them as a submod for Roman player so he woul ddisable it when fighting hoplites or pikes (or even trying to use pilum) but it would make Romans either weaker or odd in hamds of AI.

[KYREAPER]

I have a question with the pike behavior and such...

So theres that invisible cushion between the soldiers of the phalanx and the enemy right?

And then theres weapon RANGE.

Are those the exact same thing?

Like... if you increase weapon RANGE, does that create a bigger invisible cushion between the units?
Or are those separate? Where you could lower the cushion(to let the two fighting units collide closer) but then reduce/increase weapon range?

Is that possible? Or is it simply if you increase the programmed range of the weapon, it automatically causes the invisible space between units?

[KAM 2150]

Weapon range does that, for example range of 4 is minimum for pikes to hold enemy at range while hoplites will more often allow enemies to come closer. Weapon range does not work for units outside of pike phalanx based formation.

[Maetharin]

I think the Pike_Attack_Zone_Depth has sth to do with this, I've increased the value to 3 and Hoplites simply engaged without cushion, though the AI for some reason chose to run into my formation first and only then lower their spears.
All of that with Phalanx activated.

It may just be circumstantial, I'll try to replicate it with a clean copy of DeI

[Frosthammer]

Weapon range does that, for example range of 4 is minimum for pikes to hold enemy at range while hoplites will more often allow enemies to come closer. Weapon range does not work for units outside of pike phalanx based formation.

Just curiosus, what about 2handed axes? If they have weapon range=2, they will also fight with 1handed sword range, or this is exception?
Or hoplite phalanx composed from 1handed axemen with weapon range 1? They will have "stab air animation", or only 1st line will fighting?

[KAM 2150]

Maetharin, they would do the same in clean DeI too.

Frosthammer, you could give 2 handed axe a kilometer or range and it would still fight as if it has 1 meter of range. That is due to fact that Rome 2 non pike phalanx based fights use animations and they ignore range (also CA chose to not take unit defence into account when fighting pike based units so NOBODY is defending himself from pikes unless theu triger animation when a pikeman draws his sword).

[meerkatology]

whats more important than range i want to mention really, is that the getae heavy phalanx unit, when you go shieldwall they switch to sickle or 1hand falx, with AP properties and perform much much better than their stats otherwise suggest. (not op, just better than their stats suggest)

they are really not a spear unit but a 1hand falx unit. the shielwall itself doens't seem to add much combat wise ?