Oda Nobunaga: Rise to Power

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

reserved as well...

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Maybe I will do Takeda Shingen after all.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Threads Merged. Please keep posts about the same topic compacted together into the same in the future.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

So does everyone prefer a biography with events or would you rather I just go right into the politics and battles?

[hellheaven1987]

Military speaking Nobuhide is not too interested as he often failed than win, what is interesting about his reign is that he got far more cash than his traditional farmland could produce by taxing the wealth of merchant (trading) and priest (tourism) through his control of Tsushima, a port that is also a hot pilgrimage spot. In other words, when other daimyo were still thinking only about agricultural wealth, Oda clan already focused on wealth of trade and tourism - an interesting development during Sengoku period (same happened in Europe at this time) and chief factor for future success of Nobunaga. This development also continued in Edo period (in less obvious way, as it was supposely an agriculture-focused economy) and paved the base for future modernization.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Yes Nobuhide was ordained as a priest of the Lotus sect. As I covered in the part about Nobuhide's funeral, hundreds of people from the province attended, most of whom were monks, many also traveled from other provinces to pay their respects at a temple which he built. Nobunaga used these temples as a hostel for him and his retinue, possibly even as forts and as a place to hold negotiations with other clans and even to acquire information. I also didn't mention this because it was not too relevant but Nobuhide was also known for sending tribute to the Emperor.

The trade ports will be much more important when Nobunaga takes Mino and later on when he takes Kyoto. His ultimate economic aim was essentially to take all the vital ports as far as Kyushu and rule through superior economic capital. When it came to economics and making money Nobunaga was surprisingly competent. He essentially deregulated the market away from a feudal structure, in which guilds operated by castes had monopolies, he took their monopolies and promoted free trade. He also set certain regulations that promoted this free trade, quite the paradox. As was mentioned in the part where he met Dosan, the Oda clan was not afraid of creating tax havens to stimulate more trade, Nobunaga's later policies with regards to Osaka and Sakai demonstrate this. To encourage migration to his castle town of Azuchi and to Kyoto itself he created tax free zones. But he added another element: social mobility. By allowing peasants to escape most of their limitations from the caste system this allowed for individuals to change careers. As the Za guilds were no longer in control of trade anyone could potentially operate their own business and generate wealth. Nobunaga even pardoned debt to accomplish this. Not to mention the abolishing of toll barriers so that people could travel freely and trade their wares or whatever it was. While this was not particularly new during the Sengoku Jidai, Nobunaga took these economic reforms to the next level. As unlikely as it may seem for a minor warlord, Nobunaga was actually a bureaucratic genius and his end goal was the creation of a centralized state under his rule. That is mostly the reason why he treated the fiefs of his vassals as if they were his own, though it did upset many.

[hellheaven1987]

I also didn't mention this because it was not too relevant but Nobuhide was also known for sending tribute to the Emperor.

Actually it is quite important as Nobuhide only controlled like 1/4 of Owari at that time and yet he could pay tribute to Emperor just like Imagawa Yoshimoto (who controlled three provinces). So if the wealth of a local magistrate could already compete against a daimyo that controlled three provinces, something revolutionary must be there.

I think it is important as its shows the Mercantilism Nobunaga adopted was not his own innovation, but a family tradition that could date back to his grandfather. Nobunaga was grown up under this tradition and hence explained why he expanded this practice to his conquered territory later on. Mercantilism would play a key financial role in Nobunaga's conquest as rapid expansion often means that Oda clan could not firmly control the information of local land usage and hence could not tax agricultural production well, required alternative financial resource. Merchant guild hence played a key role here as you don't need to maintain a large bureaucracy yet you always find a fixed spot for taxation - an important thing when there was no banking system (today government simply tax you through bank).

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Despite being more or less the equivalent of a magistrate Oda Nobuhide had more power than his own lord Oda Michikatsu and the governor Shiba Yoshimune (who was Michikatsu's puppet). The fact that Oda Nobuhide was seen as a capable strongman was enough for local families to throw their support behind him. His tribute to the Emperor came more from the fact that he used this military power in a legitimate way by securing lands that were traditionally tied to the Emperor. So really he didn't do much more than police these lands on the Emperor's behalf much of the time. In the Emperor's 1567 letter to Oda Nobunaga, the Emperor asks that Nobunaga continue to secure the Imperial court's interests by protecting Imperial holdings and sending tribute. Though it is true that Nobuhide secured funds by creating neutral zones and building up infrastructure and constructing temples I don't think he would have had that many revenues. Not more than Saito Dosan at least, who by local standards was affluent but not as great in comparison to Sakai or the industrial areas of Omi province. Anyway I don't think that I'm going to cover any of the economics or administrative systems. That is basically a topic all its own, a rather large one. Where as this is more about the events themselves, so I won't bring that up unless it comes up in that manner.

[hellheaven1987]

but not as great in comparison to Sakai

Indeed, Sakai is another strange beast during Sengoku time, which deserves its own thread.

Anyway I don't think that I'm going to cover any of the economics or administrative systems. That is basically a topic all its own, a rather large one. Where as this is more about the events themselves, so I won't bring that up unless it comes up in that manner.

I don't think it is possible to skip this section, as those are reasons why certain events happened. For example, there is one theory that Akechi Mitsuhide revolted because he was, much like Uesugi Kenshin, a firm supporter of old tradition, and he was afraid Nobunaga's actions were too radical hence he tried to remove him. However that would mean you would have to explain what were those radical acts of Nobunaga (like mass execution of Ikko-ikki and their family, even after they surrendered) and why Nobunaga did that, which I feel it would be difficult task without touching the administration and economy part.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Not entirely I think. I doubt Akechi Mitsuhide wanted to preserve the old ways or had a moral crisis. More likely he wanted to preserve his feudal privilege. There is also the notion that Akechi Mitsuhide was an untrustworthy person as he had spent much of his young life as a wanderer and served multiple lords. This put him in suspicion among many. Not to mention that he was not one of the original vassals of Nobunaga and was an outsider that came on after 1568 when Nobunaga took Kyoto, an opportunistic career move. Despite that Akechi Mitsuhide was a blood relative of the Saito and Toki clan of Mino and was originally from that province. It might be fair to say that Akechi Mitsuhide was ambitious, far more than he let on, but was good at hiding it by putting on an act of extreme loyalty. I don't really see how he was a traditionalist.

The truly radical acts for which Nobunaga was made infamous was actually when he destroyed the Enryaku temple on Mount Hiei, in retaliation for aiding his enemies the Azai and Asakura. The Ikko Ikki however were seen as a pestilence. Uesugi Kenshin took similar measures and campaigned against them in Etchu province, his own father was killed fighting the Ikko Ikki in 1530. The rallying around the Ikko Ikki in 1572 (Takeda, Azai, Asakura, Miyoshi) and 1576 (Mori, Uesugi, Takeda) was more reactionary towards Oda Nobunaga's success in the Kinai region. Kennyo was just a really good diplomat but initially he took advantage of the discord between Oda Nobunaga and the Azai, Asakura and Miyoshi enemies. Takeda Shingen joined this alliance as an opportunist. A peace treaty was eventually signed until the Ikko Ikki broke it, then made alliances with Mori Terumoto, Takeda Katsuyori and Uesugi Kenshin, who wanted to curb Nobunaga's power.

The economics are not too important in those cases save for the fact that the Ikko Ikki and many other militant temples, were an obstacle in gaining total control. Nobunaga also wanted to survey their holdings so that he might potentially tax them, however most of those who could be taxed were not militants. Perhaps I will go into it if becomes necessary when it comes up. Though I don't see myself going into the Ikko Ikki anytime soon. I still need to cover the unification of Owari, the battle of Okehazama and the conquest of Mino.

If I could I would rep hellheaven again.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Fear not citizens, I am still working on part 3. Just been incredibly busy with RL stuff... and sleep.

I might actually be able to write one on Takeda Shingen now.

[hellheaven1987]

I might actually be able to write one on Takeda Shingen now.

God damned it just finish Nobunaga first please.

Personally I would like to see an introduction of Mōri Motonari though, arguable the best daimyo of Sengoku time yet less known by Westerners. Shimazu clan is also quite interesting, particularly their unique maneuvering tactic Tsurinobuse which was literally the Japanese Cannae tactic (using weak center and fake retreat to lure the enemy center out of their position, then encircled the enemies through two strong flanks).

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

God damned it just finish Nobunaga first please.

Personally I would like to see an introduction of Mōri Motonari though, arguable the best daimyo of Sengoku time yet less known by Westerners. Shimazu clan is also quite interesting, particularly their unique maneuvering tactic Tsurinobuse which was literally the Japanese Cannae tactic (using weak center and fake retreat to lure the enemy center out of their position, then encircled the enemies through two strong flanks).

Yeah I should get on part 3. I was planning to finish it in August but something came up and I wasn't able to finish it. Now that I have so much to do it is somewhat challenging. Although I wasn't planning on doing all of Oda Nobunaga, just the early part up to the conquest of Mino, maybe the conquest of Kyoto.

If I did Takeda Shingen I wouldn't be sure how to do it or how much I would want to do. I imagine that I could do it in the same way as this but that might be a bit harder. I probably wouldn't go into the details of his character much due to the nature of the sources which I have, they emphasize politics and military matters.

I will be upfront in saying that I greatly dislike how easy the sources are towards Takeda Shingen. Not that surprising seeing as his own clan wrote the history but over the centuries Takeda Shingen has very much remained the golden boy who can do no wrong. When I look at Takeda Shingen I see someone who is greatly over hyped, who was a decent general but not an amazing general, who lacked a great deal of integrity and trustworthiness (he had a case of chronic backstabbing and sometimes plotted to betray his allies before he had even accomplished the goals of said alliance) and who was very hypocritical towards his opponents. For someone like Oda Nobunaga his actions are too hard to overlook, everyone knows that he destroyed the Enryaku temple, that he lit the Ise Nagashima fortress, that he brutally put down the rural Ikko rebellions and was in general a ruthless warlord. With Shingen these ruthless aspects are very much ignored and overlooked and the reason for that is probably hero worship as he was never the subject of state propaganda the way that Tokugawa Ieyasu and Toyotomi Hideyoshi were. After the fall of the Takeda clan (1582) writers very much went to the record and began to absolve Shingen's fault in this, the result was a narrative that depicted a Takeda Shingen who could do no wrong and a Takeda Katsuyori who was entirely to blame. When looking at the history it very much appears that it was in fact Shingen who set his own heir up for failure. There are also elements of portraying Nobunaga as the classic villain and Shingen as the hero, if only Shingen had not died before his time he would have shown Nobunaga what for, they said. But when I looked at the record it actually states quite clearly that after defeating Tokugawa Ieyasu at Mikatagahara, neither Shingen nor Katsuyori were willing to stay around and wait for Oda Nobunaga to mobilize his army against them and so campaigns from that point on were limited in scope and retreat into the Takeda domain, before the Oda clan could mobilize was emphasized. I think that Takeda Shingen seriously underestimated Nobunaga's abilities and resources, as well as over estimated his own capability to coordinate with the Asakura and Azai, which he assumed would occupy most of Nobunaga's attention. To make matters worse this was actually one of those chronic backstabbing cases: Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu were Takeda Shingen's allies when he attacked them, problem is so was Uesugi Kenshin, so Takeda Shingen gambled on a quick victory and opened himself up to a three front war against Oda, Tokugawa and Uesugi.

As for the Mori clan well... I would very much like to write something or at least have a source on the subject. The big problem is that I am unable to do so. Much the same with the Shimazu clan. The Shimazu had what appeared to be a formula for their victories. Oddly enough they were the first to adopt firearms but made more use of their bows in these battles. The Tsurinobuse tactic was characteristic of the Shimazu clan and used to great effect since the 1550's. Though it didn't save them from Hideyoshi and seemingly wasn't used again after they employed it to defeat Hideyoshi's vanguard.

[hellheaven1987]

Though it didn't save them from Hideyoshi and seemingly wasn't used again after they employed it to defeat Hideyoshi's vanguard.

Shimazu Yoshihiro used that in Battle of Noryang in order to buy time for Japanese force retreat, which he successfully complete the mission with heavy casualty of his own force.

[RubiconDecision]

When you complete it including sources, then send it to the Samurai Archives. I am sure they will want a copy.
His taiga drama.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EHgVZbfF9Q8

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Shimazu Yoshihiro used that in Battle of Noryang in order to buy time for Japanese force retreat, which he successfully complete the mission with heavy casualty of his own force.

I thought he carried it out a bit differently at Noryang against the Ming forces. More of a fighting retreat with counter attacks but hey you're probably right.

When you complete it including sources, then send it to the Samurai Archives. I am sure they will want a copy.
His taiga drama.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EHgVZbfF9Q8

You think they would take it? Might as well try I suppose.

I have seen all of King of Zipangu. It was a decent show from decades ago but had a lot of fiction and inherent problems, some unnecessary drama as well. This seemed more like an Oda Nobunaga and Luis Frois biography to me rather than just Nobunaga, for example they draw a lot from the sources written by Luis Frois (not surprising then), such as the claim that Nobunaga was made a living god. While possible it has not been mentioned in any other sources and so one must be suspicious of that claim.


Judging from the parts about the Europeans it looks as if the Japanese had limited knowledge of Europe at the time. For example a part where they mentioned European discipline and armies they showed an army from what looked to me the 1800's. I've seen this being done before in other Japanese of the time. Portrayals of "contemporary" Europeans that for some reason are dressed as if they were from the time of Matthew Perry rather than St. Xavier.

There is also the fictional character of Kano Zuiten who is a lecherous priest. Not too far fetched that Oda Nobuhide would have priests advising him I suppose. But the character provides so much unnecessary drama. What I remember most is Nobunaga's rather stoic portrayal as opposed to the angry eccentric that one thinks of, rather here Nobunaga comes off as uncaring and disrespectful who acted as what one would normally consider a typical youth and not outright "stupid".

That is probably a more accurate version of what Nobunaga was like in my opinion. What the Japanese of the time saw as "idiotic" was more his disrespect for regular norms and his overbearing lord like attitude with his subordinates, rather than "feudal partners". Luis Frois claimed that vassals feared being in his presence and this is what often kept so many of those serving him in line, ruthlessness was a political tool after all. But reading the sources this actually seems more evident than I had previously believed. But that is striking when juxtaposed with how personal he was with a lot of these vassals as well, he often spent his free time with them and was easy to relate to on a personal level, including his soldiers who must have seen him as one of their own. It is strange then that he is both a person to be feared and respected, perhaps even loved by those closest to him. Despite that he was also quite harsh, for example he was savage in his criticism and expected his orders to be followed to the letter and failure to do so could lead to execution or banishment. Maeda Toshiie who was rather close to him was exiled by Nobunaga early on, in fact exile seems to be a preferred method of punishment over execution or seppuku. Even then I find it odd that many would characterize Nobunaga as being only severe when exile was a rather lax punishment compared to other clans who would have demanded execution for more minor offenses, he spared many people who normally would have been killed. He also often took on subordinates who were not loyal but had talent, then it is no surprise that Akechi Mitsuhide was able to kill him if he also demanded that these individuals follow him unquestioningly and to obey him as the overlord. He was a pragmatist rather than an idealist but as so often happens with pragmatism it is lacking in consistency, in this case loyalty which quite similar to Cao Cao's rejection of Confucian principle of cultivating obedience through promoting loyalty. Rather both Nobunaga and Cao Cao promoted talent regardless of moral principles and in spite of that still demanded personal loyalty. Somewhat of a paradox.

[RubiconDecision]

I think they would love to get detailed biographical information on ANY samurai as that is a major aspect of their site.
http://www.samurai-archives.com/famousgenerals.html

https://wiki.samurai-archives.com/in...e=Oda_Nobunaga

[hellheaven1987]

I thought he carried it out a bit differently at Noryang against the Ming forces. More of a fighting retreat with counter attacks but hey you're probably right.

He countered Ming's ambush by his own ambush.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Part 3 is under way. All I need to do now is write Okehazama and it is done.

I recently discovered another source that was just sitting on my shelf. So I will be adding more stuff to part 1 I guess.

[hellheaven1987]

So where is part 3?