XBAI: Battle AI and combat feedback thread

[Mroctopus]

Yeah I agree with you archer units, slinger units are overpower. Perhaps you can increase their reload time, especially for the slinger units. The movement is great. I will report to you if I find anything weird

[xeryx]

I like their reload times, as they are more realistic because archers can really sling out some arrows in real life. I think I can just lower their damage because they are pretty deadly. Maybe like 10 points?

What do you think?

BTW if you haven't tried the latest campaign AI, you really need too! It is so much more aggressive than vanilla.

[Jurand of Cracow]

are you using it with Tuskmod?

Nope, I'm just using XAI for battles.
I also think that missiles are overpowered now. I've seen them shooting at the shieldwalled spearmen and just destroying them.

[xeryx]

I concur completely..in fact all the missiles are overpowered..especially Javelins.

I have lowered them quite a bit in damage. I will update the pack, and put it up !! still same version

[xeryx]

I do have a question from what you guys observed, do you feel the army is fleeing and breaking too fast? Not counting the general dying.

Yep, the missiles were the reason why battles went so fast, it is much better now. Try it out and tell me what you think.

[rbt]

I'm testing your mod and I have question about cavalry: "You will also find they can actually retreat and not get wiped out." Do you mean by this cavalry don't die so quick after charge and pull off? What table and variables do you edit for that effect?


Battles look to be harder, I like this!

[xeryx]

Basically, vanilla hit points were very low, and if calvary were engaged in a battle they would die faster than men. Now that they have the proper hit points, they can survive being pulled out of a skirmish, even against spears without being completely wiped out.

Battles are much better, and pretty fun overall!! I think it is getting pretty balannced. One of the things i need to work on is cavalry, the speeds are off when in formation. I think there is something weird going on there.

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF SOMEONE HAS SUCCESSFULLY MODDED FORMATIONS OF UNITS (specifically spacing)!!!???? That is the last piece of the puzzle because I would love to fix spear walls and such!

[xeryx]

Well, the battle AI is now significantly tougher!! Be warned! Battles will take a much longer time than before..and well sieges are really tough on the harder levels.

The good news is that the AI is performing MUCH better.

[xeryx]

With this battle AI, I have completely disproven the theory that combat success is only based on pre-determined numbers and that the battle is merely a graphical representation of those numbers. That only applies to auto resolve. If the battle AI is not performing as it should then it can and will skew battle results. In this case, because the spacing was off, it was allowing more than 2 units to perform frontal assaults on a single unit. Physical contact is needed for actual melee combat to occur between 2 (or more) units. Because the spacing per soldier was too small, it allowed "bunching" of units that should not have been there. That is why you got the "Swarm" effect when fighting...especially at a siege entrance.

I will be fine tuning this over time and it is a very fine line to ride because it controls many things. Such as the unit spacing tables and special formations. If it is too large units bounce around when colliding and can create a space that will prevent smooth movement through other troops, which is very important for relieving the front lines. By increasing the formation spacings, there is now enough room for 2 units in a frontal assault, or for another unit to come in and "relieve" the front line unit. Giving another layer of strategy to the XBAI.

Siege assaults specifically the entrance
You are going to have to use the above method of relieving exhausted troops under the barrage of towers now. You will have to send one unit at a time, then retreat them out, because it is too crowded at the entrance for 2 units to maneuver. It really is phenomenal to make this level of realism happen. Dramatically increasing the difficulty of taking a walled city in one turn. I fought for 45 minutes and still lost a siege because of the last unit. My entire army was decimated in the end. Now that is how it should be.

Cavalry is running great and more deadly than ever, and I can see a huge difference in their killing abilities now. I believe that the needed hit collisions were not occurring because of the melee foot unit radius being too small. They are also getting better penetration now due to the increased spacing of the formations.

I know there are still tweaks to be made, but I honestly recommend playing with smaller units in the game and I have always recommended this in all total war games. This is because the pathfinding for units is really not that great in the game. It has never been, collisions detections are also atrocious and causes many issues when in a city.

[rbt]

There is something wrong with morale, units almost never flee and fight to the last one.

[xeryx]

Are you being sarcastic?

What BATTLE (in the options menu) level are you playing on? What kinds of units? I really need more specific information than a general statement. I cannot fix anything if I cannot find the issue. Also, is that all you are going to report?

Battles look to be harder, I like this!

your words not mine?

Unless you are on easy that is the way it is supposed to be overall. I have units flee all the time, you just need to know how to break the moral. So, use these tricks !! Flanking units to the sides and attacking in the rear, especially with cavalry. Also flank with archers and use whistling arrows. Burn down the villages before entering with some artillery

[rbt]

Your last version of mod, units from levy to elite, battle difficulty normal.

With harder battles I mean Ai behavior etc.

[xeryx]

I did raise the effects of the morale a while ago. I am playing on hard, and I just had half an army flee when I broke them after killing the general when they were losing so it is working just fine. You double check you have no other battle mods installed! It is going to be tougher, than old versions because of me changing unit spacings especially, at a gate entrance where it is one on one. I posted about that effect earlier.

[xeryx]

Battles have improved 100 fold since changing the Radius and spacing. I had just amazing siege battle, where I had to use everything at my displosal to get in. The AI decision logic in the game exe ai may not be perfect, but with the XBAI it is really starting to shape up and fight me well.

The spacing were a key factor to this, it has brought balance to the combat of units. The spacing is just about right for smooth travel of units as well. They cross paths without too much slow down while maintaining their zone. Cavalry kills and penetration are also greatly increased because of this, and it proves that I have achieved balance in the the XBAI.

I have also toned down friendly fire a bit because of artillery.

[xeryx]

So this is strange, and one reason I stopped using the "MY MOD" portion of PFM, apparently all the walking, running and charging speeds for men are vanilla speeds. I know I adjusted them at some point. Well guess I will work on that a bit today because my changes are lost somehow.

It didn't take too long, I have scaled the men to accurate speeds of man. Vanilla was pretty darn fast and especially charge speeds. I will go play with them now and tell you the results.

I need more feedback

[Morfans]

apparently all the walking, running and charging speeds for men are vanilla speeds.

I realized that. Awaiting your fix.

My initial feedback.

Unit spacings are great.

Missile units: kill rate is good enough for light inf or cav; still too high for heavy foot or horse. My metrics would be that one tier-1 archer unit should not kill more than 20%-25% standing comitatenses (no testudo, flat terrain, etc). You might want to adjust shield and armor tables as well.

Cavalry disengagement: way too taxing, even more losses than vanilla (example: 71 scout equites slaughtering two units of levy bow -> only 29 left after regrouping for a new charge ...)

Unit Morale: see picture, tribesmen are just shaken when 90% of their comrades have fallen.

[xeryx]

Ok good info.

I will take a look at the armor and shield tables as well as I have not touched them yet. It could be the AP arrows are too powerful being a 50/50 split, Maybe they need to be more of a 65/35 split NAH . I found some inconsistencies in the projectiles damage..especially on levy's and some other units, GOOD Catch!.

On the cavalry disengagement, I am unclear on your point? If your point is they slaughtered the levy bows, then yes that is going to happen because they have absolutely no weapon or defense strength. Which is something I do aim to rectify in the units file, they would at least have a short sword to defend themselves.

On unit moral, that is because I raised the lower tier units up by 10 points, because they were fleeing too fast.

There are a couple of things I can do.
Increase the moral penalty for losses, and affect all units or just lower the lower tier units by 5 points. If you can give me a report on overall units breaking, then that will give me the best direction to go.

[xeryx]

I had the coolest thing happen yesterday in a battle.

I had 2 artillery units and the AI army advanced towards me and they were getting pretty pummeled. They retreated back out of range of the artillery, then brought theirs down off the mountain. All units but its artillery were out of range and hiding on the mountain. So our artillery exchanged fire and it was hitting my units until out of ammo, I was almost out too. Then the AI re-started its advance towards me!! That was soo cool!!

[Morfans]

On the cavalry disengagement, I am unclear on your point? If your point is they slaughtered the levy bows, then yes that is going to happen because they have absolutely no weapon or defense strength..

No, I meant I withdrew the equites to regroup them and charge back. In the process, I lost 60% of the force. You mentioned this might happen because of the scarce cav hp ...

There are a couple of things I can do. Increase the moral penalty for losses, and affect all units or just lower the lower tier units by 5 points. If you can give me a report on overall units breaking, then that will give me the best direction to go.

Ok, I'll try to work that out.

[xeryx]

Calvary has lots of hit points, and I have not seen a real problem with them being able to withdraw, if they are light, then they will have less and take more losses but I increased them from vanilla because vanilla was super low.

I think the overall loss penalty is pretty good, I will lower the "rookies" by 5 points of morale, a fair compromise.