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Thread: Was Caesar a Demagogue?

  1. #1

    Default Was Caesar a Demagogue?

    "Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world. Like a colossus, and we petty men. Walk under his huge legs, and peep about. To find ourselves dishonorable graves."
    -Cassius, Shakespeare's Caesar.





    Was Julius Caesar a demagogue?


    demagogue (Google Dictionary):

    "a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational arguments.
"

    "(in ancient Greece and Rome) a leader or orator who espoused the cause of the common people."

    Layman's criteria (from Wikipedia): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue

    1. They fashion themselves as a man or woman of the common people, opposed to the elites.

    2. Their politics depends on a visceral connection with the people, which greatly exceeds ordinary political popularity.

    3. They manipulate this connection, and the raging popularity it affords, for their own benefit and ambition.

    4. They threaten or outright break established rules of conduct, institutions, and even the law.

    Arguments for Yes

    Caesar was Donald Trump before there was Donald Trump. A charismatic, all great, all-knowing, superstar celebrity, gazillionare, playboy general and Alexander wannabe (with a not so fantastic combover) who exploited the fears and passions of Rome's plebeian class for personal gain. Creating a brand name that literally means power; czar, Kaiser, and of course, Emperor of Rome (in addition to casinos and salads).

    In addition:

    -While at a funeral banquet for his wife Cornelia, he once proclaimed that he and his family were descendant from gods. A propaganda claim he would make again and again for political ascension.

    -He made a habit of bribing, including collusion, with the first Triumvirate in order to win elections.

    -A prolific showboater and trash-talker (perhaps the greatest in history), Caesar famously penned The Gallic Campaigns, The Diatribes against Cato, The Journey, and wrote a series of poems and speeches designed to smear political opponents (like Cato and Bibulus). In addition to his boastful oratory and appearances at trials, he once participated in a quadruple triumph while hosting some of the most expensive gladiatorial games ever seen in Rome's history. At his Triumph over Pontus, he once marched into Rome behind an escort of forty elephants, a wagon train carrying over 20,000 lbs of gold, thousands of captured slaves, and a placard that said, "I came, I saw, I conquered."

    -He used political office to evade criminal prosecution, and shamelessly awarded favors and public lands to his creditors.

    -Caesar once arrogantly boasted to a band of pirates -as a captive- that he was worth 50 talents (instead of 20) and would have them all crucified upon his release (which he did to his credit).

    -A womanizer and playboy, Caesar famously bagged Cleopatra, and according to Suetonius; the wives of Crassus, Pompey, and Servilia, mother of Brutus. He used these affairs of course to acquire wealth and political power in Rome.

    -He exiled Bibulus to his house under threat of violence, proceeding to govern as sole Consul for a time.

    -He raised and funded his own legions, granting them citizenship, slaves, plunder, and land upon retirement, in affect creating a client army more loyal to Caesar than to the senate.

    -He instigated wars for glory, and took hostages, slaves, and tribute from conquered people in Gaul.

    -He named a month after himself.

    -He sat in a gold chair at the senate house, wore purple, and had his statue placed in religious temples.

    -He used debts, written contracts, pardons, and oaths to maintain loyalty from key political supporters, and promoted the idea that he was benevolent - and his wife always above suspicion.

    -He used spoils of war to fund public works, monuments, and temples, to which he gave himself all the credit.

    -And he instigated a civil war by illegally crossing the Rubicon, which upon its conclusion he accepted the office of dictator for life.


    Arguments for No

    Caesar was a patriot and the populist answer to an elitist government that was too content to let everyday problems go by than let somebody else get the credit for fixing them. As a statesman and general, he lived in a time of unprecedented internal conflict, where political violence , including civil war between the upper and lower classes, was already the norm. At no point in Rome's history was it more dangerous to serve in public life, or undertake actions that would potentially benefit all Romans, and not just the established elite. Optimate senators could murder tribunes with impunity, plunder the treasury, accept bribes from foreign agents, usurp the law, and shamelessly flout awards and triumphs before the popular assembly, while denying plebeians basic rights. Caesar tried to change this, and for that he is one of history's rare examples of a benevolent dictator.

    In addition:

    -As Dictator, he shared election responsibilities with the populace, and appointed people who were nominated by the electorate.

    -He denounced proscription (after Sulla).

    -He enacted populist policies, including land reform, debt relief, and grain for the masses.

    -Made public the daily register of the senate.

    -Justified the Gallic Wars as a need to protect Rome's allies and secure Rome's borders from "illegal immigration."

    -Advocated restoring power to the tribunes (after Sulla / not as dictator).

    -He increased the number of senators and admitted new people to the rank of patrician and citizen. Including assimilated people.

    -Made citizens of all medical doctors and teachers in Rome.

    -Reformed the calendar.

    -Disbanded guilds.

    -Showed admirable restraint and compassion for other Romans during the civil war, forgiving many of those who fought against him.

    -Carried out a general census, expanded the tax base, and increased tariff on foreign imports.

    -Increased punishments for breaking the law and those who committed adultery.

    -Included the Roman people in his will.

    -And very importantly, never made himself king.
    Last edited by Dick Cheney.; August 09, 2017 at 01:35 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Was Caesar a Demagogue?

    The main issue here is that the "for" behaviors were quite common at the time instead of sensationalist behavior as it is today when a politician does similar things.

    As for the "no" argument, I can also add;

    - he gave all of Cisalpine Gaul Roman citizenship Lex Roscia

    - he put actual Gauls into the Roman Senate ffs

    - he started the reconstruction of Carthage near its old place, which later resulted in the rebirth of Carthage as of one of the largest cities in the Empire at one point


    In my opinion, the behavior of his legionaries during the mutiny before he went to Africa cements any doubts that he was anything short of a political messiah of Rome.

    To have thousands of legionaries weep for you and wail in demand that you do not go to war without them, after you just said you do not have the money to pay for their salaries, is utterly mindbreaking.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Was Caesar a Demagogue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post

    In my opinion, the behavior of his legionaries during the mutiny before he went to Africa cements any doubts that he was anything short of a political messiah of Rome.

    To have thousands of legionaries weep for you and wail in demand that you do not go to war without them, after you just said you do not have the money to pay for their salaries, is utterly mindbreaking.
    I think JC fans can also appreciate that none of his assassins survived him by more than three years, and not one of them died a natural death. Many of them killed themselves with the same daggers they used to kill Caesar.
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  4. #4
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Was Caesar a Demagogue?

    Caesar was clearly a talented politician as well as an able military commander, so lets not bring Trump into this shall we?

    He was definitely a demagogue (in that he led on the mob by their passions, "playing the hero" for them) and a tyrant (in that he was popular and ruled by illegal means, both as Triumvir and Dictator for life). He may or may not have had a Grand Plan: he was definitely an opportunist. The whole "rejecting the crown at Lupercalia" thing may have been a stage piece to test public opinion: in any case rejecting Kingship is not rejecting Demagoguery, accepting the Kingship would have been proof he was no demagogue.

    I think Caesar was a capable man in a broken system. To stay alive he broke it further and having won the game was killed out of jealousy as much as anything else. He wasn't a high minded person serving the Republic but contemporaries noted such men were scarce in his era. His death did not return the state to a settled fair smooth-running state of affairs, it became worse until one man achieved monarchy and arguably made it as absolute as any Eastern Despotate, albeit veiled behind Republican forms.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  5. #5
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Was Caesar a Demagogue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Cheney. View Post
    Was Julius Caesar a demagogue?
    The answer is yes and no; the better description should be he would use whatever tool, regardless rational or what, to achieve his goal; popular desire was merely one of his tools to achieve his goal (although an important one, since his position lacked legitimacy so he had to appeal to lower class in order to counter upper class).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    To have thousands of legionaries weep for you and wail in demand that you do not go to war without them, after you just said you do not have the money to pay for their salaries, is utterly mindbreaking.
    I would weep for my master's poor financial management skill too.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; August 10, 2017 at 07:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Was Caesar a Demagogue?

    Your already dead wrong when you equate Caesar and trump....... Caesar was no gazillionaire before he conquered Gaul and he was already elected consul by that time... you are definitely wrong and absurd... I wouldn't even waste anymore to argue with your idea...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Was Caesar a Demagogue?

    You forgot the most demagogic thing of them all: dumping the optimates, to which he belonged to by birth, being the Gens Julia one of the top noble families, to join the plebs of the populares.

  8. #8
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Was Caesar a Demagogue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    You forgot the most demagogic thing of them all: dumping the optimates, to which he belonged to by birth, being the Gens Julia one of the top noble families, to join the plebs of the populares.
    That was because he was hated by elite for good reasons.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; September 15, 2017 at 01:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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