Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

[Slytacular]

Then, I think you lack Iberian units. For example, militia and other possible European style units.

Well, the Andalusian crossbowmen are a bit too low class looking for crossbows, when crossbows were something affordable by the more well armed people (if due to the general fear of the commoner class having access to precise projectile weapons).

Also, the jund is a bit blah looking, and doesn't really project a theme other than something vaguely Iberian. Could give a bit more love to them. Also, what happened to using the shields Hessam made?

[Visarion]

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[Filips Augustus]

Something that is kinda lacking is the amount of European faces among muslim units. They all have Arabian faces, while there were plenty of native Iberians who converted to islam and fought for the islamic kingdoms. Andalusian units, the Jund, and the Granada units can really use some European faces in the mix.

[Visarion]

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[tomtucker]

Hi everyone i will attach some links with info about the andalusian army, some of the info is in spanish, and because i am from Andalucia i offer my help if is needed. As i said great job and i will look for more information about this faction.

http://impetus.forumsland.com/impetus-about3827.html

http://impetus.forumsland.com/impetus-about3474.html

http://www.oocities.org/pentagon/874...a/ecalifal.htm

[Visarion]

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[Dontfearme22]

Then, I think you lack Iberian units. For example, militia and other possible European style units.

Well, the Andalusian crossbowmen are a bit too low class looking for crossbows, when crossbows were something affordable by the more well armed people (if due to the general fear of the commoner class having access to precise projectile weapons).

Also, the jund is a bit blah looking, and doesn't really project a theme other than something vaguely Iberian. Could give a bit more love to them. Also, what happened to using the shields Hessam made?

I did use them, but his adarga's were more appropriate for later tiers. The designs didn't fit with 13th century artwork. Its mostly retextures of his models.

I like the idea of filling out the Andalusian end of things. I'll look into adding a few more units on top of the new cavalry unit. How exactly is the jund "blah" looking? Anything specific?

[Dontfearme22]

Oh yes some typical afrucan padded wouldn t hurt... even padded horse armour that ecisted since the ptolemaics


Also some cataphracts... there are none in ur preview... see tge above pucs

The sort of elaborate quilted armor used in sahelian african kingdoms does not appear either in textual references or visual depictions of the 'abid armies of this period, so I didn't include it.

[Visarion]

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[Slytacular]

Sorry, looking at the pictures from my phone can help misjudge some screens. The jund actually look pretty fine. However, the jund could possibly be a little bit more prejudice in helmets. For example, the Aragon and Castillian heraldry is rehashed, and I would recommend picking out the mono solid colors instead. Keeping a faction color theme could also help. Heraldry amongst commoner units is usually considered a bad thing in Western Europe amongst nobles and would enforce laws against it (depending on the country). Also to consider that there are some extremely obvious seams on some of the assets. Be ideal to use the more simpler of the Iberian equipment. You can add large tunics and chainmail if you want more diversity.

For a "men-at-arms" or sergeant style of unit. You can outfit those guys with the more fancy helmets like the one I made for you recently. You can also get away with adding matching heraldry with those guys too if you want to bother yourself with that kind of work. Knights should definitely have matching heraldry. I believe nobility in Iberia was probably the most assinine in heraldry than the rest of Europe, if not on equal level with France and England. I'm not a big fan of using too many diverse colors in heraldry because its difficult to match mounts with similar colors and patterns. If not cause me an eye strain. Some colors such as those on the kite shields could tone down a bit in gray since they flash like a neon light.

[Visarion]

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[Knight2708]

Really nice and unique roster. My main gripe is that some colors mostly orange and blue are really oversaturated and unnatural looking. Great work otherwise.

[Dontfearme22]

Sorry, looking at the pictures from my phone can help misjudge some screens. The jund actually look pretty fine. However, the jund could possibly be a little bit more prejudice in helmets. For example, the Aragon and Castillian heraldry is rehashed, and I would recommend picking out the mono solid colors instead. Keeping a faction color theme could also help. Heraldry amongst commoner units is usually considered a bad thing in Western Europe amongst nobles and would enforce laws against it (depending on the country). Also to consider that there are some extremely obvious seams on some of the assets. Be ideal to use the more simpler of the Iberian equipment. You can add large tunics and chainmail if you want more diversity.

For a "men-at-arms" or sergeant style of unit. You can outfit those guys with the more fancy helmets like the one I made for you recently. You can also get away with adding matching heraldry with those guys too if you want to bother yourself with that kind of work. Knights should definitely have matching heraldry. I believe nobility in Iberia was probably the most assinine in heraldry than the rest of Europe, if not on equal level with France and England. I'm not a big fan of using too many diverse colors in heraldry because its difficult to match mounts with similar colors and patterns. If not cause me an eye strain. Some colors such as those on the kite shields could tone down a bit in gray since they flash like a neon light.

90% stuff I agree with, and will work to implement. The matching heraldry is something that I flirted with, and have ideas on how to effectively implement but fell by the wayside for one reason or another, so I'll see what I can do.

I don't think we are thinking of the same Jund here. I have had it in my mind you were thinking of the Mozarab, now Mullawadun Jund but you seem to be actually talking about the Jund al-Nasara, is that correct? The Mullawadun Jund certainly don't have any aragonese or castillian heraldry to them.

@Visarion

I'm not portraying Kanem Bornu or Mali or Benin or the Igbo. Just the Almohads, and in that capacity blacks served militarily primarily as 'abid slave soldiers and otherwise as mamluk-like personal guards. In both cases, there exists no evidence for native Sahelian armor being used by these soldiers, which is why its not included. They would have worn North African Arab and Berber styles of armor, if any at all.

[Dontfearme22]

Updated screenshots with some new pictures. I have been making edits based on various suggestions. Hopefully they address some concerns.

The most notable changes:

- Made the Asnaf al-Berber light javelin cavalry

- Added four new units: The Muwalladun Jund, Muwalladun Cavalry, Andalusian Mushud and Andalusian Heavy Crossbowmen

- Changed around some models and added some new stuff

- Significantly retooled a few units, especially the 'Abid al-Makhzan, Mozarab Jund and 'Abid Infantry

[Visarion]

Much better. Sorry Dontfearme that I deleted my posts and maybe took away some of the sources earlier provided but I received some external threats and compulsive moderator orders to comply to the excesive rules of obediance.

[Kjertesvein]

With each update.



~Wille

[Cometopuli]

Made my day

[Sarcasm_pt]

Looking very nice, but a few points:

• Is there not an excessive overlap between certain units, or are you justifying them solely based on AoR?
• Specifically Grenadine units from the stat of the game?
• No black foot guards? Why the choice to have them mounted?
• Scale armor is more prevalent in the Castillan roster than the Almohad one, maybe there's a few opportunities to put it in here and there?
• I see no heater/tower shields anywhere in the heavy infantry department, will you be adding some?
• Which unit is supposed to be a muster of Andalusian urban militias?
• Maybe add writing to shield and banner designs?

[Dontfearme22]

Looking very nice, but a few points:

• Is there not an excessive overlap between certain units, or are you justifying them solely based on AoR?
• Specifically Grenadine units from the stat of the game?
• No black foot guards? Why the choice to have them mounted?
• Scale armor is more prevalent in the Castillan roster than the Almohad one, maybe there's a few opportunities to put it in here and there?
• I see no heater/tower shields anywhere in the heavy infantry department, will you be adding some?
• Which unit is supposed to be a muster of Andalusian urban militias?
• Maybe add writing to shield and banner designs?

Very interesting points, I'll address them in order:

- Not exactly sure what you mean.

- On the one hand I thought it was a good way of adding a slightly different naming flavor to some andalusian units. On the other hand the region around Granada and Cordoba was even in Almohad times very thoroughly islamized, and I feel-already distinctive enough to warrant a bit of added distinction.

- Purely a stylistic choice fitting with other general's bodyguard units

- Fair point. I did add more scale in the second round of updates, but I didn't see it used everywhere, so I didn't put it everywhere. I'm personally already content with the mix of scale vs. other armors in the heavily armored andalusian units but I did also add it to officers for just a bit more presence.

- good idea. I'll re-add them to a few units in greater variety

- Andalusian Mushud most likely.

- There is writing on both shields and banners, its just in the mix but I assure you its there.

[Sarcasm_pt]

Well, the Andalusian crossbowmen are a bit too low class looking for crossbows, when crossbows were something affordable by the more well armed people (if due to the general fear of the commoner class having access to precise projectile weapons).

Not true at all in some contexts. While this may be *trueish* in let's say, the lands controlled by the high nobility (and even then only up to a time), there were actual laws for sections of the population to own a crossbow. In a case I know very well, Portugal, this was the very lowest class, lower than even owning the equipment to arm oneself as a line spearman. Of course, there was a further class of semi-professional crossbowmen that were much more highly regarded, but still.

As for the Andalusian context, I will tend to agree with you - they do definitely seem to be people of a certain wealth either mounted or not. They appear to own crossbows (with no stirrups on them when used mounted, stirrup and hook on foot) conical helmets/cervellieres/coifs/phrygians, horses, ornate saddles, short corselets of mail, scale, padding or a composite of all these. Can't find any with a sidearm for the life of me though.

A sort of levy crossbow wouldn't be out of place though, at least in the Peninsula.

Very interesting points, I'll address them in order:

- Not exactly sure what you mean.

- Fair point. I did add more scale in the second round of updates, but I didn't see it used everywhere, so I didn't put it everywhere. I'm personally already content with the mix of scale vs. other armors in the heavily armored andalusian units but I did also add it to officers for just a bit more presence.

- good idea. I'll re-add them to a few units in greater variety

- Andalusian Mushud most likely.

Thank you for the reply:

There seems to be a lot of spearmen with almost exclusively round shields going around, so that's why I asked. And maybe that was also what made me put forward other suggestions. It'd be interesting to see a heavier western influence on the Andalusian heavy infantry much like it's represented on the Cantigas de Santa Maria - western style helmets, shields and armor combined with Islamic iconography. Also, tabards seem to have been much preferred over the uncovered mail (though there are examples), and quite relatable if you've ever been in a mail suit under a 40ºC sun. There's also loads of occasions when they seem to be wearing more than one type of armor at the same time, like short sleeved scale over mail, short sleeved scale over fabric, padding over mail, shot sleeved scale over padding, etc...point being, if possible show the various layers. Oh, also, battle-axes.

- On the one hand I thought it was a good way of adding a slightly different naming flavor to some andalusian units. On the other hand the region around Granada and Cordoba was even in Almohad times very thoroughly islamized, and I feel-already distinctive enough to warrant a bit of added distinction.

To be fair, everything south of the Tagus was heavily or thoroughly islamized until reconquered by the Christian kingdoms. Militarily speaking though, even after converting, they seemed to have followed the early Arab and western traditions, valuing heavy infantry much more than the guys over the straits which relied on the more cliche jinete. This, up to a point in history of course.

I'm interested to see what you're going to do with the high period units, with Ibn Al-Kathib mentioning the adoption of actually lighter equipment by Andalusian heavy cavalry. I'll also be interested if you're gonna go with the Nasrids or the Marinids to get a proper analogue.

- Purely a stylistic choice fitting with other general's bodyguard units

- There is writing on both shields and banners, its just in the mix but I assure you its there.

Maybe add an elite black foot guard, and just put the general in with what he was escorted by at Las Navas de Tolosa, namely his and the personal retinues of his main governors, namely Granada, Seville, Jáen and Cordoba?

Great on the writing.

A few more points:

• Granadine knights might need *some* caparisons, chamfrons, mail for the horses? Or am I just not understanding the difference between them and the Muwalladun, which almost look like cataphracts? Also, there's a typically Iberian heater shield model, they're shown using as well.
• Granadine cavalry (which represent medium Andalusian cavalry?) should have spears as a primary, IMO. It's *the most* represented weapon of any muslim cavalryman, light or not.
• Also, I would say, don't be afraid to experiment with typically Moroccan/Arab patterns for the more wealthy of the units. Also attested by the Cantigas.
• Slingers? Staff-Slingers?