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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

  1. #41
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm_pt View Post
    Not true at all in some contexts. While this may be *trueish* in let's say, the lands controlled by the high nobility (and even then only up to a time), there were actual laws for sections of the population to own a crossbow. In a case I know very well, Portugal, this was the very lowest class, lower than even owning the equipment to arm oneself as a line spearman. Of course, there was a further class of semi-professional crossbowmen that were much more highly regarded, but still.

    As for the Andalusian context, I will tend to agree with you - they do definitely seem to be people of a certain wealth either mounted or not. They appear to own crossbows (with no stirrups on them when used mounted, stirrup and hook on foot) conical helmets/cervellieres/coifs/phrygians, horses, ornate saddles, short corselets of mail, scale, padding or a composite of all these. Can't find any with a sidearm for the life of me though.

    A sort of levy crossbow wouldn't be out of place though, at least in the Peninsula.



    Thank you for the reply:

    There seems to be a lot of spearmen with almost exclusively round shields going around, so that's why I asked. And maybe that was also what made me put forward other suggestions. It'd be interesting to see a heavier western influence on the Andalusian heavy infantry much like it's represented on the Cantigas de Santa Maria - western style helmets, shields and armor combined with Islamic iconography. Also, tabards seem to have been much preferred over the uncovered mail (though there are examples), and quite relatable if you've ever been in a mail suit under a 40ºC sun. There's also loads of occasions when they seem to be wearing more than one type of armor at the same time, like short sleeved scale over mail, short sleeved scale over fabric, padding over mail, shot sleeved scale over padding, etc...point being, if possible show the various layers. Oh, also, battle-axes.



    To be fair, everything south of the Tagus was heavily or thoroughly islamized until reconquered by the Christian kingdoms. Militarily speaking though, even after converting, they seemed to have followed the early Arab and western traditions, valuing heavy infantry much more than the guys over the straits which relied on the more cliche jinete. This, up to a point in history of course.

    I'm interested to see what you're going to do with the high period units, with Ibn Al-Kathib mentioning the adoption of actually lighter equipment by Andalusian heavy cavalry. I'll also be interested if you're gonna go with the Nasrids or the Marinids to get a proper analogue.



    Maybe add an elite black foot guard, and just put the general in with what he was escorted by at Las Navas de Tolosa, namely his and the personal retinues of his main governors, namely Granada, Seville, Jáen and Cordoba?

    Great on the writing.

    A few more points:

    • Granadine knights might need *some* caparisons, chamfrons, mail for the horses? Or am I just not understanding the difference between them and the Muwalladun, which almost look like cataphracts? Also, there's a typically Iberian heater shield model, they're shown using as well.
    • Granadine cavalry (which represent medium Andalusian cavalry?) should have spears as a primary, IMO. It's *the most* represented weapon of any muslim cavalryman, light or not.
    • Also, I would say, don't be afraid to experiment with typically Moroccan/Arab patterns for the more wealthy of the units. Also attested by the Cantigas.
    • Slingers? Staff-Slingers?
    Alright lots to respond too

    I used the Cantigas de Santa Maria extensively as sources and oddly enough in the course of responding to suggestions and updates the infantry units most overtly based on them dwindled a lot. The Granadine knights are based 1:1 on surcoat wearing cavalry from the Cantigas however, as well as other Andalusian units. I gave them what I saw in the illustrations, namely surcoats, helms with coifs, lance pennants and horse caparisons with plain pastel colors. Battle axes are a nifty idea...I'll remember that. Oh, and high heat might make mail uncomfortable but it didn't stop the Persians from covering poor guys in full body plate and chainmail for centuries

    On shields, Islamic armies used round shields long after Europeans had adopted kite and heater shields, even Andalusians. Berbers never seem to have used kite or heater shields. I also had to reduce the likely diversity of shield shapes in the roster because some of the shields described in period sources don't have any visual references making a reconstruction of them impossible (like the 'lamt or the 'absar). I promise though when I have the chance I will add more of the Islamic heaters I made back into the infantry.

    For the Muwalladun, what I did to make sense of the many disparate sources and styles appearing in Al-Andalus was to base different units on different sources. For example, the sword-armed Andalusian cavalry are based on frescoes depicting the conquest of Mallorca, the Granadine Knights are based on the Cantigas illustrations, and the Muwalladun are based on several very interesting column capitals depicting islamic cavalry in full mail armor like the unit wears.

    The only elaborately detailed tunic I saw in the Cantigas de Santa Maria was on what appeared to be a emir, and I included it as a special tunic for the unique generals units. For Moroccan patterns I did add some tribal patterns especially to many of the Berber units. you can see them on the Maghrebi Tribesmen for example. They are based on Djellaba patterns, and the Hasham berber cavalry have more southerly Saharan designs.

    Staff-slingers aren't a possibility yet because of some animation snafu's, its not just me who has wanted to add them.

    T2 and T3 are a ways off, but the plan is to base T2 off the Marinids, since the Almohads were fundamentally a Maghrebi State, not a Andalusian one. Nasrid-style units might appear, its hard to say right now.

    Hopefully this addresses some of your concerns. I'm going to work real quick to make some changes to reflect your ideas and I'll update a few screenshots here.

    ------ EDITS -------

    Alright, I gave Muhummad Al Nasir a more appropriate bodyguard hopefully. I upscaled them and gave them more distinctive armor. I don't want to add a seperate black foot guard unit. My mind is, if people want to roleplay Las Navas de Tolosa they can have them dismount.

    I heavily reworked the Andalusian Mushud to add scale armor, heater shields and in general a more heavily armed Andalusian flavor like the Mozarab Jund had before I changed them as well.

    I also added more scale armor to the Andalusian Mounted Crossbowmen. I tried to rework a few other units but they just didn't look right at all, and in this case the historical accuracy differences are small enough that visuals supersede them I think. The surcoats especially clash very strongly with other kinds of armor, and not in a good way in my eyes.

    There is actually a fair amount of scale in the Andalusian end of the roster. I believe every heavily armored Andalusian unit has it in the mix.
    Last edited by Dontfearme22; August 08, 2017 at 10:32 PM.

  2. #42
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    Was hoping for these for the next tiers including that silver shiny horse barding and those peculier dome helmets.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 











    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Last edited by Visarion; August 09, 2017 at 09:12 AM.

  3. #43
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    good things come to those who wait

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Granadine sallet

  4. #44

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    That is beautiful.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    So just to get this straight ,throughout the high and late period the Almohads will shift into Grenada right? And slowly become more and more westernized while relying less and less on say Berber or black African troops? Similar to how the Ayyubids will shift into the Mamluks and the Seljuks into the Ottomans? If so my question is this , will this be an event triggered by the coming of the new age ? Like just boom! The Almohad Caliphate shifts into the emirate of Grenada! And if so how are you guys gonna explain this within the narrative of the campaign? Since if the Almohads survive there will never be a reason for the power to shift over to Grenada right? Of course if you guys are still mostly focused on the mp and all and aren't yet thinking that all out yet that's just fine.

  6. #46
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    Quote Originally Posted by QoreArqamani View Post
    So just to get this straight ,throughout the high and late period the Almohads will shift into Grenada right? And slowly become more and more westernized while relying less and less on say Berber or black African troops? Similar to how the Ayyubids will shift into the Mamluks and the Seljuks into the Ottomans? If so my question is this , will this be an event triggered by the coming of the new age ? Like just boom! The Almohad Caliphate shifts into the emirate of Grenada! And if so how are you guys gonna explain this within the narrative of the campaign? Since if the Almohads survive there will never be a reason for the power to shift over to Grenada right? Of course if you guys are still mostly focused on the mp and all and aren't yet thinking that all out yet that's just fine.
    This question mirrors our internal debates pretty closely

    The path I have decided to proceed on is to keep the Almohads, not to shift them to the Nasrids. Now, at the time of the campaign the Almohads controlled both al-Andalus, and the Maghreb, which were already diametrically different regions in terms of military equipment and culture. The t2 and t3 rosters mirror the Almohads as if they had not fallen, and continued to control both Granada, and the Maghreb. Their fall was not inevitable, and it wasn't predecided, so in my mind there is no reason to cause them to collapse arbitrarily, especially if the player makes different decisions from the (retarded) ones the real Almohad caliphs made. So the roster uses both Berber and Andalusian troops, but functionally speaking it won't appear much different from the Nasrid sultanate military in reality, since in the real 13th - 15th centuries Granadine generals still used Berber troops extensively.

    So in the campaign you will play as the Almohads, you won't suddenly flip a switch and turn into Granada, but the Granadine element of things will be there, and will be represented fully regardless, so if you want to play out as a Granadine sultan and ditch the Maghreb and only play with Granadine units, you will be able to do that. If you want to be a Berber sultan and ditch Granada, you can do that too.

    The Marinids are also present and will be differentiated from the Almohads by a slightly different roster and a more expansive network of mercenaries (for example.) But trust me, Granada, the Marinids, and the Almohads will all be properly visually represented. The helmet above is just for a t3 granadine noble.

  7. #47
    dogukan's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    I still think Ottomans should be a vassal migrating tribe with heavy scripting like the Huns in Attila.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontfearme22 View Post
    This question mirrors our internal debates pretty closely

    The path I have decided to proceed on is to keep the Almohads, not to shift them to the Nasrids. Now, at the time of the campaign the Almohads controlled both al-Andalus, and the Maghreb, which were already diametrically different regions in terms of military equipment and culture. The t2 and t3 rosters mirror the Almohads as if they had not fallen, and continued to control both Granada, and the Maghreb. Their fall was not inevitable, and it wasn't predecided, so in my mind there is no reason to cause them to collapse arbitrarily, especially if the player makes different decisions from the (retarded) ones the real Almohad caliphs made. So the roster uses both Berber and Andalusian troops, but functionally speaking it won't appear much different from the Nasrid sultanate military in reality, since in the real 13th - 15th centuries Granadine generals still used Berber troops extensively.

    So in the campaign you will play as the Almohads, you won't suddenly flip a switch and turn into Granada, but the Granadine element of things will be there, and will be represented fully regardless, so if you want to play out as a Granadine sultan and ditch the Maghreb and only play with Granadine units, you will be able to do that. If you want to be a Berber sultan and ditch Granada, you can do that too.

    The Marinids are also present and will be differentiated from the Almohads by a slightly different roster and a more expansive network of mercenaries (for example.) But trust me, Granada, the Marinids, and the Almohads will all be properly visually represented. The helmet above is just for a t3 granadine noble.
    Dope , that sounds friggin' awesome if I'm being honest , just wanted to get a feel for what you guys were going for there and all. Now not to try to push my good luck , buuuuut could u go into a little more detail about your plans for the Marinids or am I pushing my luck too far? XD

  9. #49
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    Quote Originally Posted by QoreArqamani View Post
    Dope , that sounds friggin' awesome if I'm being honest , just wanted to get a feel for what you guys were going for there and all. Now not to try to push my good luck , buuuuut could u go into a little more detail about your plans for the Marinids or am I pushing my luck too far? XD
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I don't care, its not a trade secret or anything

    The Marinids will have a wide breadth of North African units and will have more diverse mercenary units than the Almohads, including Catalans, Italians, Mauretanian and Sudanese Infantry, Cav and Infantry from multiple distinct Berber factions and even Slavs.

    Heres what the current WIP Marinid roster for T2 writeup looks like at the moment:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    • Nobat al-Djandariya
    • Khlot Makhzan
    • Wusfan Guard

    Melee Infantry:

    • Jundi Mutadawwan
    • Ghuzat
    • ‘Abid Infantry
    • Mudejar Infantry
    • Saqaliba Jund
    • Andalusian Jund
    • Humah Watanihi

    Ranged Infantry:

    • ‘Abid Skirmishers
    • Rumat al-Franj
    • Catalan Crossbowmen

    Melee Cavalry:

    • Beni ‘And al-Wad Cavalry
    • Beni-Merin Lancers


    • Catalan Mercenaries
    • Al Ghuzah al Mujahidun

    Ranged Cavalry:

    • Asnaf al-Zanata (High)
    • Ghuzz Horse Archers (Turks)
    • Andalusian Mounted Crossbowmen (High)




    as you can see, a few andalusian units but more mercenaries and a more detailed amount of Maghrebi troops. You can't expect anything diametrically different from the Almohads, but they will be distinct and playable in their own way.

  10. #50
    QoreArqamani's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontfearme22 View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I don't care, its not a trade secret or anything

    The Marinids will have a wide breadth of North African units and will have more diverse mercenary units than the Almohads, including Catalans, Italians, Mauretanian and Sudanese Infantry, Cav and Infantry from multiple distinct Berber factions and even Slavs.

    Heres what the current WIP Marinid roster for T2 writeup looks like at the moment:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    • Nobat al-Djandariya
    • Khlot Makhzan
    • Wusfan Guard

    Melee Infantry:

    • Jundi Mutadawwan
    • Ghuzat
    • ‘Abid Infantry
    • Mudejar Infantry
    • Saqaliba Jund
    • Andalusian Jund
    • Humah Watanihi

    Ranged Infantry:

    • ‘Abid Skirmishers
    • Rumat al-Franj
    • Catalan Crossbowmen

    Melee Cavalry:

    • Beni ‘And al-Wad Cavalry
    • Beni-Merin Lancers


    • Catalan Mercenaries
    • Al Ghuzah al Mujahidun

    Ranged Cavalry:

    • Asnaf al-Zanata (High)
    • Ghuzz Horse Archers (Turks)
    • Andalusian Mounted Crossbowmen (High)



    as you can see, a few andalusian units but more mercenaries and a more detailed amount of Maghrebi troops. You can't expect anything diametrically different from the Almohads, but they will be distinct and playable in their own way.
    Awesome , I just didn't know whether u guys like to keep those kind of details on the hush hush or not XD

  11. #51
    bigdaddy1204's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    This looks great! Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to play!!

  12. #52

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    Looks awesome! I can't wait to recreate the Battle of las Navas de Tolosa!

  13. #53

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    This looks amazing. When will we get to see the high and late rosters? I come on this page a dozen times a day to check so I must know

  14. #54
    Dontfearme22's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Almohad Caliphate

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychopathy View Post
    This looks amazing. When will we get to see the high and late rosters? I come on this page a dozen times a day to check so I must know
    I'm working co-currently on the Almohad t2-3 and all the Marinid tiers so work is wide but shallow. I am also working on new models first and units later. That means work now, while continuous and pretty rapid considering how much IRL work I have, is not work thats really previewable in a format like this. It also means that in the next few weeks as I start to whittle down to the last few models that need to be made actual unit progress with be extremely fast, basically as fast as I can plug them into the db since the models are already done.

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