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Thread: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

  1. #21

    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    When you refer to Black Numenoreans, do you mean when Sauron turned the men of Numenor against the Valar or the defeated followers of Castamir the Usurper in the Gondorean civil war? Initially, I assumed you were talking about the remnants of Castamir's forces that fled south to Harad, but posts later in the thread seemed to be referring to the followers of Ar-Pharazon and the destruction of Numenor. In that regard, I would expect the Black Numenoreans of Castamir's line to bear a symbol similar to that of Gondor, as they viewed themselves as the true men of Gondor, merely displaced unjustly. If you refer to the corrupted men of Ar-Pharazon, I cannot say what sort of symbol they would bear, as I don't recall the fall of Numenor very clearly. Regardless, I much prefer the symbol on the right side. It looks great!

  2. #22
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    The Black Numenoreans are from the 2nd Age, they survived the Downfall of Númenor because they were in Middle-earth. Castamir and his peeps were not Black Numenoreans (or Numenoreans at all by that point in the 3rd Age except maybe a few with direct lineage) they just called themselves Numenoreans. But ya Castamir would keep claiming to be the true Gondor I agree with that.

    Edit; Numenorean means 'Men of the West' basically so it can be used to refer to various groups that lived in Numenor (meaning Westland) or western Beleriand or western Middle-earth. I don't think Tolkien uses them that way though. In this way Gondor and Eriador could be referred to as Numenoreans to themselves and those in the East (much like Atani). Also not all in Numenor were Numenoreans, there is at least one story of others traveling and living there, then returning to Middle-earth before the Downfall.
    Last edited by alreadyded; July 31, 2017 at 02:40 PM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    It's been a few years since I read the Silmarillion or The Children of Hurin. I had thought that the men of Numenor (King's men) stopped traveling to the havens and remained on Numenor proper, with only the Faithful returning to Middle-earth. Also, wasn't Numenor only for the House of Beor? I'm not saying that there wouldn't have been travel to and from the island by other lines of men, but I thought the other houses remained in Middle-earth, from which the Rhovanian, men of Dale and men of Rohan, etc. descended from, hence the differences in culture and physical appearance. I need to brush up on this stuff.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    The King's Men settled in ME too, however only the Faithful settled in the northwest, coming to the havens close to the Eldar, whom the King's Men shunned.
    Even before Sauron gained dominion over Númenor he had attracted King's Men in ME to his service. During his dominion on Númenor and afterwards he made these Númenórean heirs his subjects with ease, if they were not already, and in the West they became known as Black Númenóreans.
    The Númenóreans now make permanent dwellings on the shores of Middle-earth, seeking wealth and dominion; they build many havens and fortresses. The Elf-friends go chiefly to the North-west, but their strongest place is at Pelargir.... The King's Folk establish lordships in Umbar and Harad and in many other places on the coasts of the Great Lands.
    - HoME 12; The Tale of Years of the Second Age


    The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Númenórean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King's Men, who were afterwards called the Black Númenóreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil.
    - RotK; Appendix A


    And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away
    - Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
    All Edain houses went to Númenor; Bëor's folk is simply the main forefathers of the Dúnedain in Gondor and Arnor (a.k.a the Faithful Númenóreans). The majority (ergo, the King's Men) of the Númenóreans on the other hand mostly descended from Hador's folk, including the royal house.
    But all in all the Númenóreans was a folk of mingled Edain ancestry.

    The Northmen (Dalesmen, Rohirrim etc) are related to Hador's folk, but not descendants of Hador's folk; they shared the same forefathers.
    The natives of southern Eriador to southern Gondor (Breemen, Dunlendings, Men of the mountains, Gondor's natives etc) are related to Haleth's folk, but not descendants of Haleth's folk; they shared the same forefathers.
    And lastly the natives in central Eriador, who became subjects in Arnor back in the days, were related to Bëor's folk as per above.
    If you want an overlook, I did a 2 parts video some time ago, so if interested in the division of Men, here you find info about the First and Second Ages: https://youtu.be/zxOHozNpxBo


    Further plainly lore-related matters should be discussed in the TGD-thread though: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ion-II/page171

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  5. #25
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    All Men are related and come from the East, only those that kept traveling West became "better" Men (due to learning from the Eldar and Sindar a bit too maybe), many stopped and settle somewhere along the way and were just "average" Men (Rhun, Dalesmen, Rohirrim, etc. that learned from the Avari whom never went to see the Valar and maybe never even traveled to western Middle-earth). Then there were Men that never learned from even the Avari and they would be "Wild/Savage" Men (meaning uncivilized/tribal) I suppose, not sure if I read that or just made it up though, sounds legit. If it was written Tolkien probably didn't publish it himself so he may have meant to change it. The Black Numenoreans would only be made up of "better" Men, which had all but died out by the Third Age. There would probably be some that claimed to be Numenorean though and so would call themselves that maybe, this is how I went about adding those units in the Third/Fourth Age anyway. So any Age after the 2nd Age and you are good to go on using the term I think if you use the word "claim" in the description. Kings-Men would be a term both parties would agree on though, they wouldn't call themselves Black Numenoreans anymore than Castamir would call himself a Black Gondorian I think.
    Last edited by alreadyded; August 01, 2017 at 01:53 PM.

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