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Thread: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

  1. #1
    paleologos's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    I made one on request by Rob13.

    Since I am not too well versed in Tolkien's legendarium, I post here for your opinions.
    Do you think it makes sense and which one do you prefer?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    I made one on request by Rob13.

    Since I am not too well versed in Tolkien's legendarium, I post here for your opinions.
    Do you think it makes sense and which one do you prefer?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Black_Numenoreans_x2.png 
Views:	179 
Size:	195.2 KB 
ID:	347086

    I am not well versed either, but I find this quite cool. The tentacles of the eye curl around the Seven Stars in a literal manifestation of Saurons corruption as well as a homage to their seafaring talents (Octopus/Squid comes to mind).

  3. #3
    Araval's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Good job! I'd prefer the right one because it gives more the impression that they are proud of their Numenorean heritage.

  4. #4
    paleologos's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    What were the Black Numenoreans really?

  5. #5
    AntonisTheGreek's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    They were Numenorians who got corrupted by Sauron

  6. #6
    paleologos's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    So, the UI icons came along like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I suppose at this size one should not expect to see much detail...

  7. #7
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Still looks good at that size

  8. #8
    El Monstero29's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    The one on the right looks incredible! What mod are these for, if you don't mind my asking?

  9. #9
    paleologos's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Quote Originally Posted by El Monstero29 View Post
    The one on the right looks incredible!
    Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by El Monstero29 View Post
    What mod are these for, if you don't mind my asking?
    For that you would have to ask Rob13, as he is the one who contacted me and I did not ask for details.
    But I assume it take place during the second age in middle earth (not sure though).


    By the way was it you who gave reputation to the OP without leaving a name?
    If yes, thank you, but please do sign the reputation given, the receiver should not have to guess.

  10. #10
    Ngugi's Avatar Circle of Zerthimon
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Seven stars is from plain lore perspective not a fitting symbol for Black Númenóreans, should be flagged; they symbolize the Palantiri in Arnor and Gondor, given to the Elendils father personally:
    Star, as emblem: ... Seven stars of Elendil and his captains ... originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantír ...
    - The Return of the King, LoTR, Index

    These stones were gifts of the Eldar to Amandil, father of Elendil, for the comfort of the Faithful of Númenor in their dark days, when the Elves might come no longer to that land under the shadow of Sauron. They were called the Palantíri, those that watch from afar;
    - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
    To use them for a BN banner would be historically and ideologically conflicting. A bit like in a WW2 setting see Wermatcht using the Sickle & Hammer, or the Allies decorating themselves with Iron Crosses.
    If that is not deemed an issue, there's no other concerns however.

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  11. #11
    paleologos's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    What I know about the lore is next to nothing.
    So, when I ask about the BN one might take the trouble to post -for example- what their ideology is, what they take pride in, what they abhor, what are their strengths and weaknesses, what are their aspirations and aversions, what is their perception of their role in the world, how do they visualize the future and their place in it, in other words their sense of identity.

    And if I had that information I would have made something not "historically and ideologically conflicting".

  12. #12
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Hmm, I would say you are totally free to make what you want, but I believe it is one's own responsibility to gain the necessary knowledge to be "accurate".
    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    Since I am not too well versed in Tolkien's legendarium, I post here for your opinions.
    Do you think it makes sense and which one do you prefer?
    This what you asked and it looks to me that it is also what is answered.
    Last edited by Veteraan; July 17, 2017 at 11:30 AM.

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  13. #13
    Ngugi's Avatar Circle of Zerthimon
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    What Veteraan says.
    Not many would know or consider the origin of the seven stars, so I mentioned it, as considerations was asked for.
    And with that said, I left it free to anyone to do as they please, I do not try to sway, mere inform what that emblem seems to me based on lore; if anyone like it for his/their mod for the quality of the visuals, or, as is easy for anyone who like to speculate, envision it as a mockery or corruption of the Dúnedain emblem, it's perfectly free for anyone to enjoy. It's not like the games are not, usually by necessity, creative in application of lore or lack thereof.
    As for the 'octopus' shap it is quite fitting, considering the maritime heirtage and the BNs was/being spread out across the world.

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  14. #14
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Looks fine to me.

    My opinion is that they would keep using the symbol of Numenor as is since they consider themselves to be that still (they didn't rebel against Numenor the Faithful did). I doubt they would refer to themselves as Black Numenoreans, more like refer to the other guys as something else.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Those are really cool looking, well done

  16. #16

    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    What Veteraan says.
    Not many would know or consider the origin of the seven stars, so I mentioned it, as considerations was asked for.
    And with that said, I left it free to anyone to do as they please, I do not try to sway, mere inform what that emblem seems to me based on lore; if anyone like it for his/their mod for the quality of the visuals, or, as is easy for anyone who like to speculate, envision it as a mockery or corruption of the Dúnedain emblem, it's perfectly free for anyone to enjoy. It's not like the games are not, usually by necessity, creative in application of lore or lack thereof.
    As for the 'octopus' shap it is quite fitting, considering the maritime heirtage and the BNs was/being spread out across the world.
    Do we have a lore description of any symbols that King's Men used (besides symbols of Morgoth) or what Ar-Pharazon's personal Coat of Arms was?

  17. #17
    Ngugi's Avatar Circle of Zerthimon
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    May be tips in either HoME 5, 9 or 12, but not to my knowledge, to be honest
    The star is a resonable Numenorean emblem, just not seven of them for the reason quoted above - though the association to Elbereth and the Valar should be noted.
    There is the scepter, that likely could been used and is a fair iconography [but no description of it, I think], though under the assumption then that Sauron would be cool with that, considering he hated Ar-Pharazon;
    The sceptre was the chief mark of royalty in Númenor, the King tells us; and that was also so in Arnor, whose kings wore no crown ... The sceptre of Númenor is said to have perished with Ar-Pharazôn.
    - Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur, Note #3


    The mightiest and proudest was Ar-Pharazôn the Golden of all those that had wielded the Sceptre of the Sea-Kings since the foundation of Númenor;
    - Akallabeth
    Think we only know what colours the King's Men went with, not their emblems:
    In that time the fleets of the Númenóreans darkened the sea upon the west of the land, and they were like an archipelago of a thousand isles; their masts were as a forest upon the mountains, and their sails like a brooding cloud; and their banners were golden and black.
    ...
    Then Ar-Pharazôn hardened his heart, and he went aboard his mighty ship, Alcarondas, Castle of the Sea. Many-oared it was and many-masted, golden and sable; and upon it the throne of Ar-Pharazôn was set. Then he did on his panoply and his crown, and let raise his standard, and he gave the signal for the raising of the anchors; and in that hour the trumpets of Númenor outrang the thunder.
    - Akallabeth
    As for DCI we used stars, and a ship, to refer to the maritime heritage and custom, if not Alcarondas itself.
    There's much room for creativity.

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  18. #18

    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    I do like the way you all handled it in DCI (if you couldn't tell from the signature haha). I've seen the gold and black used for black numenorians in other sub mods as well. As for the scepter, considering Sauron's reputation as a control freak and his hatred for Ar-Pharazon, I think the scepter would be off the table haha.

  19. #19
    Ngugi's Avatar Circle of Zerthimon
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Noticed a hint of that ^^ Credits to Earl of Memory for it

    I guess Meneltarma would make a good symbol too; a black-domed temple could be an intimidating emblem I bet

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  20. #20
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: Symbol for Black Numenoreans

    Something like Earendil's device would be my guess for Numenor in the beginning since the first king was his son;






    Later if the "Black Numenoreans" used something else Meneltarma in the middle of a five pointed star surrounded by blue and stars in the corners or along the edges on top of a black background seems like a obvious choice (not much different from the images above really). But from what I remember reading they held on to tradition and of course didn't consider themselves as Black or the ones that changed, they wanted what they always wanted (to not be "punished" with death and fear of the unknown which is apparently Morgoth's fault long before Numenor was a thing), it just started to show more and more toward the end. The lore is from the perspective of the Faithful (and Elves I suppose, not much difference I suppose since the Faithful were Keebler fanboys) so to them they were Black Numenoreans.
    Last edited by alreadyded; July 30, 2017 at 05:20 PM.

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