Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP - Teil Zwei!)

[Oliverkahn]

After watching the battle of Bouvine video posted, will the possible disparity in unit armor be adressed in any way? Especially in regards to relatively similar factions HRE and France. It isn't a big deal as such, just felt like asking. And secondly, wouldn't it be better with the 1. tier knights to also use the longsword two handed, so the knights will have the same battlefield function? I personally liked the early two handed knights in the last update.

[Heisenburrg]

I also like the new Landsknechts. Especially these in-action-fotos look great.

[Wallachian]

Wonderful work on this guys! Congrats!

I have a question in regards to the German pikemen. When did the Germans start to use pikemen? I saw in the HRE preview that there is a unit of Pikemen (the Knechte) which look quite early era

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Which period did these guys appear in? Was it concurrent with the Swiss pikemen or before them? Because i thought the swiss were the ones that popularised the use of the pike in middle ages europe.

[Heisenburrg]

If I have understood it correctly, the tier 1 unit represents pike-using regiments, which occured in Lower Germany (Brabant, Flandern, Lower Lorraine...) already in the 12th and early 13th century. The Brabancons -professional mercenary regiments, often armed with pikes, crossbow and/or the "Goedendag" (ger. "Guter Dolch")- would be one example for such troops.

[Wallachian]

Right, so they represent more the branbancons, flemish etc the lower countries rather than germans. I was thinking more about the austrians, bavarians etc if they actually used pikemen in the XIII-XIV centuries. Would be interesting to know.

[zsimmortal]

If I have understood it correctly, the tier 1 unit represents pike-using regiments, which occured in Lower Germany (Brabant, Flandern, Lower Lorraine...) already in the 12th and early 13th century. The Brabancons -professional mercenary regiments, often armed with pikes, crossbow and/or the "Goedendag" (ger. "Guter Dolch")- would be one example for such troops.

Brabançons aren't professional regiments. It is one of the names the French called mercenaries or mercenary companies, and is synonymous with brigands, routiers, cottereaux, etc. They aren't even necessarily from Brabant, they could be from plenty of places, the name of Brabançons stuck because people from Brabant (and Germans) were in large numbers or were the 'fiercest' amongst them.

However pikes as we know them were not in general use at the time, so they could very well just be long spears. A pike phalanx of low born people from all around Europe that are hired as mercenaries and live as highway brigands between wars would be exceptionally surprising. The French accounts of Brabançons rather indicates a disorderly group that charges into enemy lines, not a discplined force.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

If I have understood it correctly, the tier 1 unit represents pike-using regiments, which occured in Lower Germany (Brabant, Flandern, Lower Lorraine...) already in the 12th and early 13th century. The Brabancons -professional mercenary regiments, often armed with pikes, crossbow and/or the "Goedendag" (ger. "Guter Dolch")- would be one example for such troops.

The original post specifically addresses this. They represent the Knecte or bands of youths in UPPER Germany and the Rhineland who roamed around robbing people and causing trouble. They were sometimes hired by cities for defense. The reason for this is because it was these bands which were eventually organized and trained by the Swiss and later by the HRE to become Landsknechts, the two originate from essentially the same tradition. Brabancons are pretty much just another name for the same thing, but it makes more sense for the progression of the unit to go from Knecht - Landsknecht, also because Brabancon is not a german word.

However pikes as we know them were not in general use at the time, so they could very well just be long spears. A pike phalanx of low born people from all around Europe that are hired as mercenaries and live as highway brigands between wars would be exceptionally surprising. The French accounts of Brabançons rather indicates a disorderly group that charges into enemy lines, not a discplined force.

This is what I am going for, essentially just an undisciplined band with long spears for the early units. Problem is that without the phalanx formation in-game they are basically useless.

[Heisenburrg]

Ah ok, sorry. Then I misunderstood.

Btw; there is an existing german word for Brabancons. It would be "Brabanzonen". And it´s indeed the term for professional regiments from the Lower Rhine region in the original sense. Only in later times, when the companies spread all over western europe merging with recruits from different regions, they could no longer be distinguished from other mercenary groups in quality, equipment and origin so the term became synonymous to brigands, routiers etc. But in the original sense it was a term to describe mostly well equipped, proficient mercenary regiments (compared mercenaries from other regions according to historical sources), which were recruited in Brabant and the surrounding countries.

Anyway; thats rather a side fact if the unit shall represent troops from Upper german lands, so it doesnt matter.

[zsimmortal]

This is what I am going for, essentially just an undisciplined band with long spears for the early units. Problem is that without the phalanx formation in-game they are basically useless.

You can use the phalanx with the 2-handed spear animation and long spears, it looks less macedonian. I'm not overly zealous on this though, it's not egregiously offensive like the barbarian pikemen of attila.

[You_Guess_Who]

Just like zsi said, every unit with 2h spear animation can do pikewall formation. You yourself did this, remember? You made those dismounted knights using their lances as 2h spears with pikewall formation, the crusader dismounted knights? I am very supportive with this movement to reduce the ubiquitousness of pikes in early Euro rosters, by replacing them with long spears only to evolve to full pikes in the later tiers.

Without the phalanx formation, of course they're near useless - they're meant to fight from a schiltron, not individually. They won't be too powerful either, because a weapon's effectiveness in pikewall formation depends on the length of the melee_weapon assigned to the unit. The mk_long_spear is shorter than mk_pike, so it won't be as powerful (and have much less damage than the shorter mk_halberd used in pikewall as well)

[Knight2708]

This is what I am going for, essentially just an undisciplined band with long spears for the early units. Problem is that without the phalanx formation in-game they are basically useless.

Without the phalanx formation, of course they're near useless - they're meant to fight from a schiltron, not individually. They won't be too powerful either, because a weapon's effectiveness in pikewall formation depends on the length of the melee_weapon assigned to the unit. The mk_long_spear is shorter than mk_pike, so it won't be as powerful (and have much less damage than the shorter mk_halberd used in pikewall as well)

Honestly, if they are just bands of brigands and robbers, than I think that them not being able to form pikewall formation and being rather ineffective, cheap troops would make sense. Basically I would imagine them as cheap troops that you spend leftover money on to get some additional numbers, and not professional front line soldiers, which i assume is quite similar to how they were used historically.

On a more general note, I think that way too many pike and polearm units have access to phalanx/spearwall currently and that due to this a lot of them are more effective than they ought to be. In many cases polearms and long spears were the weapons of poorer soldiers who were not able to afford more expensive weapons, which is not to deny their effectiveness, but it also means that these weapons were often used by troops who were unable to use them to their full potential. In fact soldiers such as the Swiss and Landsknechts, that had the discipline, training and combat moral to get the most out of these weapons, were highly sought after and respected, because they used these weapons much more effectively than everyone else.
Basically, I think that not every unit that uses pikes, halberds or other polearms should act as a professional frontline unit that can form spearwall and basically stop every charge. Imho only elite units such as the Swiss, landsknechts and royal guards should be able to form pikewall to set them apart more clearly from less elite units that use pikes and polearms.

[Heisenburrg]

When it comes to the other german factions; could someone please change these neon-green stripes on saxony's heraldry to a more darker green? Would match the actual colour much better.

https://www.google.de/search?q=sachs...9bLe1v_r32NLM:

[claymore833]

When it comes to the other german factions; could someone please change these neon-green stripes on saxony's heraldry to a more darker green? Would match the actual colour much better.

https://www.google.de/search?q=sachs...9bLe1v_r32NLM:

Second this.

[Visarion]

Yeah triple it

[Visarion]

Good changes. Only now I saw that you last edited your post on the 23 of August.

[claymore833]

After took a look of the whole roster again, I have a couple of new criticisms:

1, the difference of Tier 1 and Tier 2 units(except knights) is not big enough, hard to differentiate between them.

2, Tier 1 knightly units: lack of CoAs on their surcoats. The surcoats in the current version(Feb. 2017) are actually better.

3, Tier 3 units(except Knights and heavy Landsknechts): gambeson everywhere and lack of armour.

4, The quality of the textures of the "painted black armours" need to be improved. Now they don't look metallic and the yellow stripes on the armour look like painted by children.

[Knight2708]

When it comes to the other german factions; could someone please change these neon-green stripes on saxony's heraldry to a more darker green? Would match the actual colour much better.

https://www.google.de/search?q=sachs...9bLe1v_r32NLM:

While this may be true for the modern Landeswappen of Saxony, the coat of arms of the medieval Electorate of Saxony, actually features a lighter green

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Although I do agree that the gren should be somewhat less neon and more of a light green.

[michel3345]

Nice work are there even screenshots of the gothic knights you could show me?

[achilles-91]

Landsknetche and Doppelsonders were realy used as regular troops and not just as merceneries in 15th century? Im working on some mod for medieval 2, so I would realy profit from this information. And should they be available as regular troops also in 16th century, or they are just mercenaries at that time?

[zsimmortal]

Landsknetche and Doppelsonders were realy used as regular troops and not just as merceneries in 15th century? Im working on some mod for medieval 2, so I would realy profit from this information. And should they be available as regular troops also in 16th century, or they are just mercenaries at that time?

Landsknechts were formed in the late 15th to be a regular infantry force by Emperor Maximilian. Just because they could sell their services doesn't mean they weren't used as a regular infantry either. They were prohibited from fighting against the Empire when hired by another kingdom.

It's also largely impossible to separate 'regular' soldiers from mercenaries in the medieval period. The typical european medieval field army consisted first and foremost of the Levy (or Ban), which called upon vassals and their retainers, which was then bolstered by any number of the following : professional soldiers (more towards the later period), mercenaries, militia, tribesmen, and countless other groups.

Also, I just want to underline that 'mercenary' in the high/late medieval period covers a large group of people. Typically they were hired for a campaign and disbanded, but that led to them becoming brigands in peace time. Others were kept even in peace time (like (some of?) the German 'Aüssoldner'). Others were in professional mercenary companies. Essentially, being a mercenary doesn't mean they aren't a regular group in armies.

Also, while Döppelsoldners did exist in the 15th century, I haven't found anything suggesting dedicated two handed swordsmen in that period. Rather they would be the frontline soldiers due to having higher morale and better armour, typically wielding pikes as the front row of the formation or halberds to charge enemy formations. Even 2 handed swordsmen were not a very popular innovation from what I've read.