Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP - Teil Zwei!)

[Knight2708]

So are there actually any mentions of Verlorene Haufen being used before the 16th century? The unit looks absolutely great, but I am a bit concerned about how historically accurate including them is.

[McMoots]

So since HRE got a revamp, does that mean all the vassal states, like Duchy of Saxony, Brabant, or Austria, have these units now as well?

[Knight2708]

Okay so I've been thinking about how best to represent the troops of the HRE in terms of heraldry, as the heraldry shown in the current preview is a bit all over the place, including the coats of arms of several of the HRE's states and duchies that are already represented as separate factions such as Bavaria, Thuringia etc. Imho instead of representing the armies of the HRE as a sort of pan-German force including troops from various duchies, I would suggest to make groups placed under Imperial immediacy (Reichsunmittelbarkeit, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_immediacy) the primary focus of the HRE's armies. These are groups or individuals that have sworn loyalty directly to the Emperor and not any other prince or duke and include the Free Imperial Cities, Imperial Knights, Imperial Counts and Imperial Abbeys. Basically these would be the troops that only the Emperor would have access to and command authority over and that would be independent of all the other German factions except the Empire itself.

While the Free Imperial Cities are already beautifully represented by the urban militia, I am having some trouble finding the coats of arms of any of the Imperial Knights and Imperial Counts, so all help and additional information in that regard would be appreciated.

Thoughts?

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

First of all, thanks everybody for the compliments! I worked very hard on these units and tried to be meticulous in detail and historical accuracy, and I'm glad that you guys like it. When I get more time, I'll make a post showing sources for my inspirations. I was worried that people would get upset about the painted armor, but it has a very strong basis in realism (that I'll demonstrate in said post) - especially in German armies, so that's one thing I'm pretty immovable on.

Several things:

1. Lack of Generic Generals
In the Campaign, no way every army's General Bodyguard is the Faction's leader. Thus, you should create Bodyguards for other generals as well.

5. Pike's length
I'd like for the pikes to start as long spears, only to lengthen in higher tiers, to illustrate the growing trend of pikemen. I see Pikes as too ubiquitous in the mod's early Euro rosters whereas it only popularized in Swiss, Flanders, and Scotland by the beginning.

I plan to make generic generals, don't worry. Funny you should mention pike length, because I also had that idea while I was making this roster! The early knechte have the shortest pikes (basically just long spears), T2 are slightly longer, and T3 have the longest. I also agree that too many factions have pikemen too early. However, I would add HRE and Austria to your list, because the tradition of long pikes was prevalent in Upper Germany and the Rhineland from very early on, and that area shares much cultural heritage to Switzerland. The Swiss pike tradition didn't exist in a vacuum. I think keeping swiss pikemen supreme in the mod is important, though, and perhaps this can be done in balance, by making all other pikemen significantly weaker. And/Or maybe early Knechte should be limited to mercenaries/bandit troops?

With that said, let's talk about the unit names and the overall composition of the roster:

First of I think the name "Wehrbauern" I suggested earlier would be a pretty good fit for the Rural Spearmen.

As for the Men at Arms (the tier 3 version of these guys looks phenomenal btw) I would suggest renaming them "Knappen" (espuires) (or "Schildknappen" if you want a slightly fancier name). Their current name is very generic and I think "Knappen" would give them a more clearly defined role and background.

As for the crossbowmen, I really like @KEA's suggestion from the older thread of having two classes of ranged units the feudal "Schiesser Reisknechte" and urban "Schützen". I am thinking that in tier 3 the "Schiesser Reisknechte" could serve as Pavise crossbowmen and the "Schützen" as handgunners.

As for the Halberdiers, the name "Fußknechte" that I suggested earlier or the fancier "Laufende Reisknechte" that KEA suggested would both work well for this unit.

Now the pikemen are where it gets more problematic. Afaik pikes only really became common in Germany around the 15th century, as others have already said, so I am not sure about having tier 1 and 2 pike units. I would however, have 2 pike units for tier 3, the urban "Spiesser" that KEA talked about and the Landsknechte as the elite unit that the player would unlock pretty much at the end of the military tech tree.
Speaking of the Landsknechte, what happened to their look? Don't get me wrong the Landsknechte in this preview look great, but not like Landsknechte. Their current models would work great for other tier 3 units such as the tier 3 versions of the "Fußknechte"/"Laufende Reisknechte" and "Spiesser" I already talked about. I know there were some issues with the textures of the Landsknechte shown earlier, they certainly looked a bit rough around the edges, but they looked like actual Landsknechte. An improved version of these models would work much better for the Landsknechte.

Me, personally, I also love the native names for units, and you have some great ones here that I'd really like to use. I think it's awesome. However, I've come to realize from watching some streamers play the game, that you and I are in the minority. Most people can't pronounce a lot of the names, and this effects their ability to play it somewhat. I definitely went overboard on some of my other rosters as well, and plan to remedy that by tweaking the unit names to be simpler to understand (epecially toulouse). Therefore, I will stick mostly to English names for units, with a few exceptions (Like Landsknechte or Doppelsoeldner).

It's an incredible work! It will be magnificent to try in battle those troops, once the mod is finished Especially the polearm soldiers and the urban militia are wonderful!

I have just one correction to point out: the "bishop officers" should be armed with a mace instead of a sword, since men of the church were forbidden to "shed christian blood". Thus, when they chose to fight, they employed maces, which could kill a man without tearing flesh and spilling blood, "cheating" the rules.

This is a popular belief, but the evidence for it is scarce. Justification for it derives almost entirely from the depiction of Bishop Odo of Bayeux wielding a club-like mace at the Battle of Hastings in the Bayeux Tapestry. But this is shaky, because there is still a lot of disagreement about what Odo is holding, as there is strong evidence that it is actually a baton of Viking origin that symbolizes his authority on the battlefield.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Check out this for more info: Gerrard, Daniel M.G. (2011) The military activities of bishops, abbots
and other clergy in England c.900-1200. PhD thesis

So are there actually any mentions of Verlorene Haufen being used before the 16th century? The unit looks absolutely great, but I am a bit concerned about how historically accurate including them is.

They aren't Verlorne Haufen, I explained that in the blurb about the unit. You're right, that's 16th century thing. Verlorne Haufen is one of the inspirations for that unit, which draws from several different aspects of Landsknechte organization.

[Knight2708]

First of all, thanks everybody for the compliments! I worked very hard on these units and tried to be meticulous in detail and historical accuracy, and I'm glad that you guys like it.

Yeah the hard work really shows. This is probably your best work so far imho and I really appreciate all the work that was put into creating new assets for this faction, tier 3 especially looks just stunning and incredibly unique.

I plan to make generic generals, don't worry. Funny you should mention pike length, because I also had that idea while I was making this roster! The early knechte have the shortest pikes (basically just long spears), T2 are slightly longer, and T3 have the longest. I also agree that too many factions have pikemen too early. However, I would add HRE and Austria to your list, because the tradition of long pikes was prevalent in Upper Germany and the Rhineland from very early on, and that area shares much cultural heritage to Switzerland. The Swiss pike tradition didn't exist in a vacuum. I think keeping swiss pikemen supreme in the mod is important, though, and perhaps this can be done in balance, by making all other pikemen significantly weaker. And/Or maybe early Knechte should be limited to mercenaries/bandit troops?

I'll just add that the Landsknechte should be able to go toe to toe wit the Swiss and that the Flemish, and probably also the Spanish and Scottish should also have some pretty good pikemen. Factions like France on the other hand, should probably not even have pikemen aside from Swiss mercenaries.

Me, personally, I also love the native names for units, and you have some great ones here that I'd really like to use. I think it's awesome. However, I've come to realize from watching some streamers play the game, that you and I are in the minority. Most people can't pronounce a lot of the names, and this effects their ability to play it somewhat. I definitely went overboard on some of my other rosters as well, and plan to remedy that by tweaking the unit names to be simpler to understand (epecially toulouse). Therefore, I will stick mostly to English names for units, with a few exceptions (Like Landsknechte or Doppelsoeldner).

I mostly watch Pixelated Apollo, and while the guy really cant pronounce anything, he really takes it with humor, making fun of himself for his inability to pronounce non-English names and generally seems actually interested in learning how to properly pronounce the names and it really doesn't seem to impede his enjoyment of the game. I mean fantasy mods such as Third Age Total War also have a ton of hard to pronounce names and those are incredibly popular, so I don't think its as much of a problem as you may think.
Aside from that, using English names for everything just robs the mod of a lot of flavor, uniqueness and historical accuracy. Not to mention that certain words such as Fußknechte/Reisknechte can just not really be translated into English and I imagine that many other languages are similar. Also seeing a lot of the recent previews the general trend that the mod seems to be heading towards is more native names and not less, so I am kind of confused by this sudden change of direction.

They aren't Verlorne Haufen, I explained that in the blurb about the unit. You're right, that's 16th century thing. Verlorne Haufen is one of the inspirations for that unit, which draws from several different aspects of Landsknechte organization.

Fair enough, I'm still a bit iffy about Doppelsöldner wielding two-handed swords in the 15th century, and with that I don't mean these weapons merely existing and being used in this period generally, but specifically being used by units of Landsknecht Doppelsöldners.

[marmalade]

Why do the dismounted knights in tier 1 not use their shields? If their lances have been cut down, couldn't they use both shield and spear together?

[Kjertesvein]

Aside from that, using English names for everything just robs the mod of a lot of flavor, uniqueness and historical accuracy.

I do agree on a general principle, that authentic elements enhances the overall gaming experience for the player, but names are main interactive points in the game. They need to be intuitive and have meaning in order to be useful as interactive tools for the player. There is a caveat, such as the examples of names like Landsknechte or Doppelsoeldner, but I'm talking in general.

They have to be in English, just like the UI has to be in English. You can't navigate the Main menu or ingame Settings if it was all in Latin, because it's too ineffective. You can't effectively navigate through your units if the names has no meaning to you. It's a good debate, so let me try to give it some honesty, attention and how to possibly move forward when it comes to the general naming convention.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What we're talking about are names for units in a video game, played by 21st century laymen. Most of which lack complete knowledge about pretty much everything there is to know about the medieval period. Their understanding is full of holes and loaded with misconceptions. Let's be honest here, and doing so I'll use me as an example of an ignorant person. If the Middle Eastern factions used authentic unit names, you might as well not have names at all in my case. Here's why that is.

• The names would not carry any meaning to them. By that I mean, when I spoke those names, I wouldn't conceptualize anything. Nothing. I would have to learn a new language in order to enjoy a video game. To demand that a player has to learn a new language is an unreasonable demand. If you force this, you run the risk of narrowing the audience that are able to enjoy the end-product.
• I wouldn't be able to pronounce the names as they were pronounced 800-500 years ago, let alone modern Arabic. There are Arabic syllables which uses a level of tonality that isn't present in the European languages, which is why you sometimes see numbers when the Arabic word with the English alphabet. I simply can't utilize the name properly, i.e. the names doesn't work. I'm not educated enough to use the tools (words) properly.

Names using English is the same reason why personal computers have a User Interface. It's to make the interaction between the player and the game effective. Using exclusively authentic names is counter-active to an effective interaction between the player and the game. Pixelated Apollo use the names which has meaning to him, such as "Heavy infantry" and "Shock Cav" when faced with authentic names. He can't interact with the authentic names, and so the authentic names are wasted.

While it's a noble aim, I think the practicality of exclusively authentic names isn't a viable option. No commercial game that I'm aware of breaks from this rule, and for a very good reason. Ignoring or diminishing this problem doesn't work either, so perhaps, let's try to find some common ground.

---

An alternative option is to do as followed, which has been done before in other mods.

Footmen (Fußknechte) (High)

You have the user-friendly version, followed by the authentic version. The former gives meaning, the latter gives the feelings you get from authenticity. Both aspects are given the appropriate attention. Some mods in the past have done something similar, it worked and I think it's a viable option that solves some of the problems. It's not an easy fix, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

Not to mention that certain words such as Fußknechte/Reisknechte can just not really be translated into English

Footmen/Traveling Soldiers. Next.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Lack of creativity doesn't mean there's a lack of possibilities. It just means we have to work harder to find a solution. Outsourcing the obstacle to the public might be one solution her. Have the public suggest good English variations for unit names. As an example, Slytacular came up with Table Men (Knights) and Candle Men (Squires) for the Kingdom of Norway on his own merit. I've never thought about that, I've never seen anyone who referred to them by the literal meaning of the words Skutilsveinr or and Kjertesveinr , but they're fantastic and fully authentic.

@Marmalade
Matt Easton and Dr. Capwell have noted how soldiers with better protective armour are able to use weapons with shorter reach. Examples include pollaxes and medieval Longswords, as opposed to longer ranged weapons, such as halberds and pikes. As armour evolved, we see that the knightly class eventually dispensed with their shields. The armour became so good, it dispensed some of the qualities that the shield provided, and I suspect that is what's going on here. The upside by doing so in better leverage and accuracy of your weapon. In some aspects, you're a better fighter. You can read a description of a that case in my signature. The "halberd" is a Kesjur, imagine a long spear head that can cut.

~Wille

[Visarion]

Quick question...


Will you represent the Duchy of Gelders and the Gelders nobles/army in any way!?

[marmalade]

As armour evolved, we see that the knightly class eventually dispensed with their shields. The armour became so good, it dispensed some of the qualities that the shield provided

In a tier 1 13th century unit? Where mail and padding was the standard of armor? Hey, it's a really effective combination, I'm not ragging on mail here, but I imagine shields were still very much relevant.

[Knight2708]

I do agree on a general principle, that authentic elements enhances the overall gaming experience for the player, but names are main interactive points in the game. They need to be intuitive and have meaning in order to be useful as interactive tools for the player. There is a caveat, such as the examples of names like Landsknechte or Doppelsoeldner, but I'm talking in general.

They have to be in English, just like the UI has to be in English. You can't navigate the Main menu or ingame Settings if it was all in Latin, because it's too ineffective. You can't effectively navigate through your units if the names has no meaning to you. It's a good debate, so let me try to give it some honesty, attention and how to possibly move forward when it comes to the general naming convention.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What we're talking about are names for units in a video game, played by 21st century laymen. Most of which lack complete knowledge about pretty much everything there is to know about the medieval period. Their understanding is full of holes and loaded with misconceptions. Let's be honest here, and doing so I'll use me as an example of an ignorant person. If the Middle Eastern factions used authentic unit names, you might as well not have names at all in my case. Here's why that is.

• The names would not carry any meaning to them. By that I mean, when I spoke those names, I wouldn't conceptualize anything. Nothing. I would have to learn a new language in order to enjoy a video game. To demand that a player has to learn a new language is an unreasonable demand. If you force this, you run the risk of narrowing the audience that are able to enjoy the end-product.
• I wouldn't be able to pronounce the names as they were pronounced 800-500 years ago, let alone modern Arabic. There are Arabic syllables which uses a level of tonality that isn't present in the European languages, which is why you sometimes see numbers when the Arabic word with the English alphabet. I simply can't utilize the name properly, i.e. the names doesn't work. I'm not educated enough to use the tools (words) properly.

Names using English is the same reason why personal computers have a User Interface. It's to make the interaction between the player and the game effective. Using exclusively authentic names is counter-active to an effective interaction between the player and the game. Pixelated Apollo use the names which has meaning to him, such as "Heavy infantry" and "Shock Cav" when faced with authentic names. He can't interact with the authentic names, and so the authentic names are wasted.

While it's a noble aim, I think the practicality of exclusively authentic names isn't a viable option. No commercial game that I'm aware of breaks from this rule, and for a very good reason. Ignoring or diminishing this problem doesn't work either, so perhaps, let's try to find some common ground.

---

An alternative option is to do as followed, which has been done before in other mods.

Footmen (Fußknechte) (High)

You have the user-friendly version, followed by the authentic version. The former gives meaning, the latter gives the feelings you get from authenticity. Both aspects are given the appropriate attention. Some mods in the past have done something similar, it worked and I think it's a viable option that solves some of the problems. It's not an easy fix, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

Footmen/Traveling Soldiers. Next.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Lack of creativity doesn't mean there's a lack of possibilities. It just means we have to work harder to find a solution. Outsourcing the obstacle to the public might be one solution her. Have the public suggest good English variations for unit names. As an example, Slytacular came up with Table Men (Knights) and Candle Men (Squires) for the Kingdom of Norway on his own merit. I've never thought about that, I've never seen anyone who referred to them by the literal meaning of the words Skutilsveinr or and Kjertesveinr , but they're fantastic and fully authentic.

~Wille

Well this certainly is an interesting discussion.

First of I don't think that authentic unit names are that much of an impediment to gameplay, due to the many other indicators of what a unit is. Most importantly are obviously the designations such as "heavy melee infantry" etc. and you also have unit cards and unit icons showing what weapons units are using or what their role is.

Of course pronunciation is always going to be an issue, but I don't think that it is as big a problem. Just because I do not speak a language, does not mean that I cannot make sense of a word before me. Sure, I will never be able to pronounce it exactly like a native speaker, but it will still be a lot more authentic than the alternative.

Mow as for giving names a sense of meaning, I would argue that that is what the unit descriptions that are currently being worked on are for. Also. one of the great things about gaming is that it allows the player to have experiences that in a way allow him to create his own meaning. For example a player may not know or even care about the historic meaning and background of a unit's name, but he may instead think of a unit as "that one unit that won me that one epic siege, because they held of three whole enemy units" or "those crappy guys that routed almost immediately in that one battle".
Furthermore, I would argue that an English translation does not necessarily give a stronger sense of meaning than the authentic word. Just using the examples that you pointed out, I have no idea what a "Table Men" and "Candle Men" is and without actually looking up these names and their meaning they have as little meaning to me as the original Norwegian words. Sure I can pronounce them, but I still have no idea in what context the words "candle" and "table" are being used and why these units are named this way.

I also just think that having authentic names is in a way more fair. Just from looking at this subform, this mod is being played and will be played by a wide variety of people from different backgrounds and I personally think that it would be cool for everyone to have units with names that only they can pronounce properly.

Of course having both the authentic name and the translation could work, but that opens up new problems, such as deciding for which names translations are deemed necessary, the difficultly of translating certain words that only make sense in a specific historic and cultural context and potential unhappiness with certain translations.

[McMoots]

Are these units also for the vassal states of the HRE? Like Duchy of Saxony or Bavaria?
Also, how does this tie in with the previous revamp of HRE? http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...mpire-(REVAMP) I see similar units and what not, but it seems that the vassal states had some units faction specific?

[Knight2708]

Whenever I go back to this preview I discover something awesome I didn't even notice before. I just noticed how detailed and authentic the heraldry on the tier 3 Ritter is. While I've been able to recognise a couple of the coats of arms such as Waldburg-Sonnenburg, Wertheim, Zwiefalten and Limpurg, there are a lot of others that I am really curious about, so I'd really appreciate to know what the other coats of arms you used for that unit are.

It would also be really cool if you could post some additional screen shots of the pavise crossbowmen's pavise and of the Emperor's bodyguards.

EDIT: I also just noticed that one of the tier 3 low class officers is holding the "Reichsrennfahne" which was carried by the "Reichsmarschall" when he rode to battle at the Emperor's side, so that banner should actually be part of the emperor's bodyguard unit.

[robtim92]

Is there a version of Sly's new gothic sallet model that doesn't have the rondels?

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Working on making colors a bit more uniform by removing blue and green elements, added a few new pieces:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Knight2708]

Honestly I think that having a unified color scheme for the HRE really doesn't make a lot of sense. It was way too diverse and decentralized to ever form anything resembling a unified army with troops levied from all across the Empire's territories in case of war without ever forming a standing army.
Hell even more centralized kingdoms such as France only formed a standing army and mandated some form of uniform in the 15th century and Burgundy to my knowledge the only medieval state to ever mandate a strict color scheme only did so in the 1460s. I honestly don't get why having a strong color scheme is necessary at all. Imho the colorfulness and diverse heraldry is one of the main draws of the medieval period and something that should be embraced and not avoided.
I also just don't get the why faction colors are needed to create diverse and distinguishable factions instead of focusing on creating actually unique looks. For example Landsknechts have a look that is basically incompatible with the idea of a unified color scheme, but they still have an incredibly unique look compared to mos other European units.
I am also confused as to why the need for a color scheme is apparently only present with western armies. The Khwarazmians, Ottomans, Ghurids etc. dont have any hint of a color scheme and they look all the better for it, because their creators were allowed to create incredibly detailed and historically accurate rosters without having to incorporate a unified color scheme.
Now I assume that the main reason for wanting to have unified color schemes is for gameplay, to make sure that different factions' units are easily distinguishable when playing the game. But I would argue that there are a lot of other ways to accomplish this: faction icons, unit officers with flags, units looking differently and most importantly the huge red, yellow and blue unit icons that always tell you immediately whether a unit belongs to your, your ally’s and your enemy’s army

Now don't get me wrong, I am obviously not suggesting to abandon every notion of a color scheme no matter what, but I do think they should be used only when it makes sense to do so. I have myself suggested a somewhat more uniform look for the urban spearmen, because it makes sense for semi-professional soldiers that take great pride in their home town and want to show of its heraldry to look similar. But in other cases I think there are better ways to create unique looking units than to just have a color scheme for its own sake.

/Rant

Now obviously I'm just a random guy on the internet and its your guys' mod, so ultimately the decision lies with the mod team, but I think it is certainly a discussion that is worth having.

Now if a uniform color scheme is desired, I still have to say that the new changes honestly look like a visual downgrade. First of why on earth is red the new main color of the HRE? All that red looks both unhistorical and also rather uncomfortable to look at. Just replacing all other colors with a single shade of red looks incredibly unnatural and unrealistic, as if there was some sort of weird color filter over the image that erased every color but red. Even if the Emperor decreed that every soldier of the HRE was to wear a specific set of colors (which he never did), you would still see variations: different shades of these colors, other colors being worn aside these colors etc.
In any case, the most common colors should be yellow and black, not only are they the colors of the Imperial coat of arms, but also of many Free Imperial Cities, the coat of arms of Swabia where many Imperial troops came from and of other areas of Imperial immediacy such as the Vogtland. Red and wide should be common colors but not as dominant as yellow and black and really there should also be other colors such as blue and green, they just would be less common. If a color scheme is deemed necessary there is a way to retain visual cohesiveness without removing all but a few colors. The tier 3 urban militia are a great example of this, they are very clearly Imperial troops with visual cohesion, but they still look natural through the inclusion of a few other colors here and there. The tier 3 crossbowmen are similar and factions such as Lorraine generally have a good balance of colors while retaining a dominant theme. Also even with a color scheme the knights really should be the units without any major color scheme, as they are the guys with all the diverse coats of arms and heraldry. Even factions that are otherwise rather uniform such as Hungary don't have much of a color scheme on their knights.

[You_Guess_Who]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The coat-of-plates fauld's texture isn't sharp enough, and the rivets looks stretched.

[Visarion]

Great. Stuff... agree with king

* knight sry

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Honestly I think that having a unified color scheme for the HRE really doesn't make a lot of sense. It was way too diverse and decentralized to ever form anything resembling a unified army with troops levied from all across the Empire's territories in case of war without ever forming a standing army.
Hell even more centralized kingdoms such as France only formed a standing army and mandated some form of uniform in the 15th century and Burgundy to my knowledge the only medieval state to ever mandate a strict color scheme only did so in the 1460s. I honestly don't get why having a strong color scheme is necessary at all. Imho the colorfulness and diverse heraldry is one of the main draws of the medieval period and something that should be embraced and not avoided.
I also just don't get the why faction colors are needed to create diverse and distinguishable factions instead of focusing on creating actually unique looks. For example Landsknechts have a look that is basically incompatible with the idea of a unified color scheme, but they still have an incredibly unique look compared to mos other European units.
I am also confused as to why the need for a color scheme is apparently only present with western armies. The Khwarazmians, Ottomans, Ghurids etc. dont have any hint of a color scheme and they look all the better for it, because their creators were allowed to create incredibly detailed and historically accurate rosters without having to incorporate a unified color scheme.
Now I assume that the main reason for wanting to have unified color schemes is for gameplay, to make sure that different factions' units are easily distinguishable when playing the game. But I would argue that there are a lot of other ways to accomplish this: faction icons, unit officers with flags, units looking differently and most importantly the huge red, yellow and blue unit icons that always tell you immediately whether a unit belongs to your, your ally’s and your enemy’s army

Now don't get me wrong, I am obviously not suggesting to abandon every notion of a color scheme no matter what, but I do think they should be used only when it makes sense to do so. I have myself suggested a somewhat more uniform look for the urban spearmen, because it makes sense for semi-professional soldiers that take great pride in their home town and want to show of its heraldry to look similar. But in other cases I think there are better ways to create unique looking units than to just have a color scheme for its own sake.

/Rant

Now obviously I'm just a random guy on the internet and its your guys' mod, so ultimately the decision lies with the mod team, but I think it is certainly a discussion that is worth having.

Now if a uniform color scheme is desired, I still have to say that the new changes honestly look like a visual downgrade. First of why on earth is red the new main color of the HRE? All that red looks both unhistorical and also rather uncomfortable to look at. Just replacing all other colors with a single shade of red looks incredibly unnatural and unrealistic, as if there was some sort of weird color filter over the image that erased every color but red. Even if the Emperor decreed that every soldier of the HRE was to wear a specific set of colors (which he never did), you would still see variations: different shades of these colors, other colors being worn aside these colors etc.
In any case, the most common colors should be yellow and black, not only are they the colors of the Imperial coat of arms, but also of many Free Imperial Cities, the coat of arms of Swabia where many Imperial troops came from and of other areas of Imperial immediacy such as the Vogtland. Red and wide should be common colors but not as dominant as yellow and black and really there should also be other colors such as blue and green, they just would be less common. If a color scheme is deemed necessary there is a way to retain visual cohesiveness without removing all but a few colors. The tier 3 urban militia are a great example of this, they are very clearly Imperial troops with visual cohesion, but they still look natural through the inclusion of a few other colors here and there. The tier 3 crossbowmen are similar and factions such as Lorraine generally have a good balance of colors while retaining a dominant theme. Also even with a color scheme the knights really should be the units without any major color scheme, as they are the guys with all the diverse coats of arms and heraldry. Even factions that are otherwise rather uniform such as Hungary don't have much of a color scheme on their knights.

I agree 100%. I love representing the wide variety of the middle ages where it is appropriate, which I think it is especially in late-period HRE. However, my original units were called an eye-sore because of all the colors. Last time I tried to make them more uniform with predominantly black/yellow and red/white, people complained that there wasn't enough color. It seems I can't win.

[Sarcasm_pt]

Seems like there needs to be an internal decision either way, and work on that once that's out of the way.

[Knight2708]

Well I guess we could try to find some sort of compromise. Im on mobile right now, so I cant go into too much detail, but here is a rough outline of what Im suggesting.

Bodyguard: very strong color scheme, mostly black and yellow, some red and white

Urban units and Trabanten: strong color scheme, mostly yellow, black, white and red, some blue and green, basically like the tier 3 versions of these units

Fußknechte and Knappen: some color scheme, yellow, red, black and blue are slightly more common than other colors, but there still are a lot of other colors, also quite a bit of brown due to undyed gambessons

Knights and Landsknechte: barely any color scheme