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Thread: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

  1. #1

    Default Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Previous research has found that cognitive load can slow down System 2 but has little effect on System 1. So the researchers incorporated a task to induce cognitive load in some of the survey takers.
    ...
    The researchers found that this second task slowed response times among liberals, but not conservatives. This was true even after controlling for differences in logical reasoning and general intelligence.
    ...
    “people who self-identify as conservatives tend to make these decisions based on their emotive, intuitive responses to the scenario in question (their gut feelings), whereas those who identify as liberal tend to put gut-feelings aside and make decisions based on an attempt to reason logically and consciously about the scenario,” Sulikowski told PsyPost.
    The left is alliance of the worst treated in society and the highly educated. The right is everyone else. It's no surprise the former group has a better reasoned position than latter.

    And before someone insinuates the study isn't replicable, here is another study from 2 years with precisely the same outcome. A 2012 paper found "low-effort thought promotes political conservatism".

    Let's compare conservative and liberal beliefs about ISIS as an example. Conservatives simply believe that ISIS have complete freedom of action, chose to evil and must be destroyed. Liberals believe that we have a lot of blame. By letting Al-Maliki massacre all of those Sunni protesters we made peaceful change impossible and gave Sunnis the choice to either passively accept our oppression support ISIS to bring about a violent change in their favour. As noone can expected to accept oppression, it's no surprise they support ISIS. Our messed up incentives are essentially forcing people to support ISIS who otherwise wouldn't. The liberal belief about ISIS is clearly something that took more thought and is also more accurate.
    Last edited by Enros; July 09, 2017 at 10:18 AM.

  2. #2
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Man, that's all crap the liberal elite in their academic ivory towers want you to believe! And that Soros guy! I'm sure he's got something to do with it.
    Last edited by Muizer; July 09, 2017 at 10:52 AM.
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  3. #3
    Fight!'s Avatar Question Everything.
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    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    In my country Liberals and Conservatives are pretty indistinguishable, just different flavours of high and mighty. I've never known a Liberal to shed a tear while my people starve and overdose on heroin.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    ITT illiberals that have turned the academia into a totalitarian branwashing machine pat themselves on the back. Anything coming out of the social studies/humanities departments of US universities should be questioned.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    The study's methodology is not available online (for free), so how can we discuss it? Did you actually read the study before posting about it? Or did you post it simply because it confirms your beliefs? That's "liberal reasoning" for ya; "if I agree with the study's conclusions, it must be true. No need to read the study." The irony!

    Bleeding-heart conservatives and hard-headed liberals: The dual processes of moral judgements
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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    This constant exporting of American politics to the world is ruining people's perceptions of politics....
    Liberals and conservatives are not hive minds.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  7. #7

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    The OP quotes an article (not linked) referencing a study (not linked) making a claim that is not contained with in the study.

    Actual text from the study:

    Consistent with the hypothesis that liberals rely more on controlled cognitive (System 2) processes than conservatives, the cognitive load induction selectively interfered with the time taken by liberal, but not conservative, participants to make moral judgements. There was no evidence that these differences resulted from disparities in logical reasoning or general intelligence, or as a result of the liberals and conservatives being differentially predisposed to make utilitarian or non-utilitarian decisions. Logical reasoning ability did, however, predict how long liberal, but not conservative, participants spent considering their answer. These findings suggest that political orientation is associated with the degree to which a person relies on either emotional/intuitive or logically reasoned processes when making moral judgements. It is also worth emphasizing here that there was no difference between liberals and conservatives in their tendency to endorse (or not) the utilitarian response to the dilemmas, meaning that the two groups were largely in agreement with respect to the actions they deemed to be morally permissible. Thus, it does not follow from these data that either System 1 or System 2 (or liberal or conservative participants) are necessarily more adept at, or better suited to, arriving at accurate or appropriate moral judgements.
    Actual conclusion: Under cognitive load, liberals took more time to make a decision than conservatives did. However, they didn't make statistically different decisions regarding the moral dilemmas.

    I would ask the OP how taking longer to come to the same conclusion indicates better reasoning?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    The OP doesn't understand the scientific method, sound methodology, or how to provide a link to a study to be reviewed by others...

    This sums it up best-

    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.
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    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    The left is alliance of the worst treated in society and the highly educated. The right is everyone else. It's no surprise the former group has a better reasoned position than latter.
    Just one thing. In most of the world "Liberal" means pro-free-market mostly. Reagan, Thatcher, Schauble are all liberals.
    In the USA only the world "liberal" is associated with "Social liberal" and progressive. In most of the world, Liberal = right-wing fiscally perhaps conservative, perhaps progressive.


    Now, as for the highly educated: World-wide that is not an absolute case. In USA that's not an absolute case. Yes, in USA at the time where the conservative party is getting full of trolls, the progressive side has somewhat more highly-educated people. But it's not like 9 out of 10 educated people are registered democrats. It's more like 3 to 2 supported Hillary over Trump. Still a big margin but if we count who the Republicans put on it hardly makes the progressives (Democrats are right-wing too) a club of the educated.

    So, what is clear is that the Opening Post has an agenda and uses "clearly" too... liberally if I may say. It's not clear at all and the worlds "left", "conservative", "right", "liberal" etc are all used in a very specific way that doesn't reflect what they mean for most of the world.
    Last edited by alhoon; July 09, 2017 at 02:21 PM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Actual conclusion: Under cognitive load, liberals took more time to make a decision than conservatives did. However, they didn't make statistically different decisions regarding the moral dilemmas.
    The study, like another previous study, found that the conservatives relied on system 1 and the liberals on system 2 for these moral dilemmas.
    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantinePowerGame View Post
    This sums it up best-
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.
    I totally stand by this comment. The burden of proof is only on the person making the claim in scientific debates. In other environments it may not be.

    If someone reports a crime to the police, they don't have to prove anything. The police will investigate and the state prosecutor will prove it on their behalf (or reject their case). We all agree that the burden of proof shouldn't be on person making claim in this situation because they are the victim. Proving things in criminal justice is not like proving things in scientific journals, for this reason.

    Similarly, if someone reports that their group is being discriminated against, they don't have to prove it either. It's the governments responsibility to investigate and determine whether it's true, not the victim's. Noone should be required to do any extra work because they were a victim.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Just one thing. In most of the world "Liberal" means pro-free-market mostly. Reagan, Thatcher, Schauble are all liberals.
    In the USA only the world "liberal" is associated with "Social liberal" and progressive. In most of the world, Liberal = right-wing fiscally perhaps conservative, perhaps progressive.


    Now, as for the highly educated: World-wide that is not an absolute case. In USA that's not an absolute case. Yes, in USA at the time where the conservative party is getting full of trolls, the progressive side has somewhat more highly-educated people. But it's not like 9 out of 10 educated people are registered democrats. It's more like 3 to 2 supported Hillary over Trump. Still a big margin but if we count who the Republicans put on it hardly makes the progressives (Democrats are right-wing too) a club of the educated.

    So, what is clear is that the Opening Post has an agenda and uses "clearly" too... liberally if I may say. It's not clear at all and the worlds "left", "conservative", "right", "liberal" etc are all used in a very specific way that doesn't reflect what they mean for most of the world.


    Almost every person I know who has a PhD in a hard science/engineering discipline is either moderate or conservative.

    I know about a half-dozen people locally/personally who have PhDs in engineering fields and they are all gun-owners and either moderates or conservatives.


    The problem with the Left has never been a lack of education, it has been an education in wrong things. The Left isn't "ignorant" per se, they just know a lot of things that simply aren't true.

    Anyway, a moderate who has a two year degree and certification in code programming is actually more educated [in terms of quality] than a leftist who has a Master of Arts in Gender Studies with a concentration in Queer Theory.
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    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantinePowerGame View Post
    I know about a half-dozen people locally/personally who have PhDs in engineering fields and they are all gun-owners and either moderates or conservatives.
    Well I have an engineering PhD and look at me.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post

    I totally stand by this comment. The burden of proof is only on the person making the claim in scientific debates. In other environments it may not be.

    If someone reports a crime to the police, they don't have to prove anything. The police will investigate and the state prosecutor will prove it on their behalf (or reject their case). We all agree that the burden of proof shouldn't be on person making claim in this situation because they are the victim. Proving things in criminal justice is not like proving things in scientific journals, for this reason.

    Similarly, if someone reports that their group is being discriminated against, they don't have to prove it either. It's the governments responsibility to investigate and determine whether it's true, not the victim's. Noone should be required to do any extra work because they were a victim.

    To illustrate the unacceptable and invalid nature of your view, some woman should accuse you of rape, so you can try to prove you didn't rape her. She shouldn't have to do any extra work, she is the victim... That might convey the idea to you about how accusations, proof, etc., work.

    Of course I don't want that to happen to you, even as laughable as your views are, nobody deserves the pain and trauma of a false accusation, particularly of a serious offense.


    You say "because they were a victim" it is actually "alleged victim" because until they prove they were a victim, they are not an actual victim.



    Your attitude is why, as a general rule, I would hope all jurors to refuse to return a guilty verdict in cases involving allegations of rape/sex assault unless the alleged victim has sustained injuries consistent with being beaten into submission. False accusations are too common and the "he said she said" game is too dangerous, it provides no due process or protection for the rights of the accused.

    Case in point, man has sex with a woman, she claims he raped her, he claims it was consensual. There is no evidence that any force was used, she has no injuries, and the only "evidence" that she was raped is her own testimony. This is not enough to obtain a conviction in a society that is supposed to value due process and the idea of proving guilt beyond all reasonable doubt, and no reasonable jury could be expected to convict under those circumstances. In fact, at the conclusion of the prosecution's case, the defense should move for a directed verdict, and a reasonable judge [someone using standards other than yours] would likely grant it.


    When you accuse somebody of a crime, particularly a serious crime against your body/person, your credibility is always in issue because if you are a complete liar then the accusation is essentially meaningless.

    The rape shield laws are a clear unconstitutional violation of the confrontation clause of the Sixth Amendment.

    It does not surprise me that progressives love the rape shield laws, because a large number of black men are frequently accused of rape and imprisoned for rape. Historically the progressives would just lynch black men in the name of defending the purity of women [mostly white women], now they just lock up black men [and white men too] because a woman said so.

    Historically all it took for a black man [or even a white man] to be beaten to death or lynched by a mob was for a white woman to scream, run out of a building, and claim the man touched her. Progressives think that this standard of "proof" this burden of proof, is sufficient for a conviction.
    Last edited by Iskar; July 10, 2017 at 03:46 AM. Reason: personal reference removed
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    The study, like another previous study, found that the conservatives relied on system 1 and the liberals on system 2 for these moral dilemmas.
    That doesn't answer the question, nor does it support your claim. It's also not an entirely accurate claim in its own right. Both studies documented some evidence which suggests that, according to their interpretation, if, and only if one also accepts the dual-process theory of moral decision-making rather than the intuitionist theory:

    Research on moral judgment has been dominated by rationalist models, in which moral judgment is thought to be caused by moral reasoning. The author gives 4 reasons for considering the hypothesis that moral reasoning does not cause moral judgment; rather, moral reasoning is usually a post hoc construction, generated after a judgment has been reached. The social intuitionist model is presented as an alternative to rationalist models. The model is a social model in that it deemphasizes the private reasoning done by individuals and emphasizes instead the importance of social and cultural influences. The model is an intuitionist model in that it states that moral judgment is generally the result of quick, automatic evaluations (intuitions). The model is more consistent than rationalist models with recent findings in social, cultural, evolutionary, and biological psychology, as well as in anthropology and primatology.
    The emotional dog and its rational tail: A social intuitionist approach to moral judgment

    In the segment of the study I quoted in my last post, the longer time taken by liberals under cognitive load was used to suggest that liberals use more of a system 2 process, but then...

    Although liberal and conservative participants did not differ in their reasoning or working memory capacity scores, liberals did respond more quickly than conservatives when providing non-utilitarian responses under no load.
    By the same logic used by the researchers (faster response = system 1), then it would seem liberals use system 1 more often than conservatives in every day moral situations, or the study's rationale is flawed in making such a broad claim that it's conservatives who use system 1, since they can't seem to account for this discrepancy.

    From my perspective, their data actually supports the moral intuitionist theory for both liberals and conservatives under normal circumstances. The fact that liberals take a longer time to come to the same conclusions under cognitive load likely has another explanation. Social conservatives are more likely to be involved in social circles, religious organizations, etc., which support a belief in and discussion of objective morality, and thus under stress, social conservatives are less likely to be thrown into moral cognitive dissonance which disrupts their natural intuition.

    Both those studies are based largely on a theoretical framework developed by Daniel Kahneman. Interestingly, one based their experiments around priming effects, here's an excerpt from a letter by Kahneman himself, addressing priming and the state of social psychology:

    As all of you know, of course, questions have been raised about the robustness of priming results. The storm of doubts is fed by several sources, including the recent exposure of fraudulent researchers, general concerns with replicability that affect many disciplines, multiple reported failures to replicate salient results in the priming literature, and the growing belief in the existence of a pervasive file drawer problem that undermines two methodological pillars of your field: the preference for conceptual over literal replication and the use of meta-analysis. Objective observers will point out that the problem could well be more severe in your field than in other branches of experimental psychology, because every priming study involves the invention of a new experimental situation.

    For all these reasons, right or wrong, your field is now the poster child for doubts about the integrity of psychological research. Your problem is not with the few people who have actively challenged the validity of some priming results. It is with the much larger population of colleagues who in the past accepted your surprising results as facts when they were published. These people have now attached a question mark to the field, and it is your responsibility to remove it.
    But all question marks aside, OP has yet to explain why a method of moral reasoning which takes longer to arrive at the same result is better.
    Last edited by sumskilz; July 09, 2017 at 05:52 PM. Reason: rational rationale
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  15. #15

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    The left is alliance of the worst treated in society and the highly educated. The right is everyone else.
    I'd say the left is an alliance of the worthless in society and those that make a profit out of giving them false hope. The right is everyone else.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    The left is alliance of the worst treated in society and the highly educated. The right is everyone else. It's no surprise the former group has a better reasoned position than latter.
    You lend an entirely new meaning to the word "educated".

    Just speaking for Central Europe, here the left is an alliance of privileged sons and daughters with their cretinous, creepy teachers at university (and sometimes school or church as well) and other upper-class hypocrites, who are determined to live their utopia at the expense of the (indigenous) lower classes. I'm sure a survey of voters' professions and social status of "leftist" parties, particularly the Greens and the SPD in Germany would yield some interesting results.


    Let's compare conservative and liberal beliefs about ISIS as an example. Conservatives simply believe that ISIS have complete freedom of action, chose to evil and must be destroyed. Liberals believe that we have a lot of blame. By letting Al-Maliki massacre all of those Sunni protesters we made peaceful change impossible and gave Sunnis the choice to either passively accept our oppression support ISIS to bring about a violent change in their favour. As noone can expected to accept oppression, it's no surprise they support ISIS. Our messed up incentives are essentially forcing people to support ISIS who otherwise wouldn't. The liberal belief about ISIS is clearly something that took more thought and is also more accurate.
    Who's "we"?


    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantinePowerGame View Post
    Almost every person I know who has a PhD in a hard science/engineering discipline is either moderate or conservative.

    I know about a half-dozen people locally/personally who have PhDs in engineering fields and they are all gun-owners and either moderates or conservatives.
    And yet, engineers are also prone to becoming terrorists or believing in pseudo-science (there's ample proof on the forum for the latter). So they're a mixed bunch.


    The problem with the Left has never been a lack of education, it has been an education in wrong things.
    Indeed.


    The Left isn't "ignorant" per se, they just know a lot of things that simply aren't true.
    Or, in other cases, they are half-educated and mis-apply their knowledge.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Who's "we"?
    I think erroneously attributing collective guilt as well as purporting to speak for all liberals on the topic of ISIS was meant to be a demonstration of "better" moral reasoning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  18. #18
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantinePowerGame View Post
    Almost every person I know who has a PhD in a hard science/engineering discipline is either moderate or conservative.

    I know about a half-dozen people locally/personally who have PhDs in engineering fields and they are all gun-owners and either moderates or conservatives.
    As an engineer with a PhD, I can tell you that I am moderately conservative. But I don't speak for the majority, cause I don't know them.


    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantinePowerGame View Post
    Anyway, a moderate who has a two year degree and certification in code programming is actually more educated [in terms of quality] than a leftist who has a Master of Arts in Gender Studies
    According to your opinion (OK and mine). We may be the majority, we may be the minority, but it's not for us to decide. Frankly, who are we to decide what's "more educated"?
    I can tell you that IMO, the first guy has studied something that is more useful to society, but not whether he's more educated or not.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    As an engineer with a PhD, I can tell you that I am moderately conservative. But I don't speak for the majority, cause I don't know them.




    According to your opinion (OK and mine). We may be the majority, we may be the minority, but it's not for us to decide. Frankly, who are we to decide what's "more educated"?
    I can tell you that IMO, the first guy has studied something that is more useful to society, but not whether he's more educated or not.


    My undergrad/bachelor's degree is in business. I was also several credits shy of finishing two engineering degrees [one in nuclear, one in electrical/electronic], I lost interest in engineering, and I ultimately went on to earn a law degree [JD]. I have a fair amount of formal education and life "experience" education.


    I consider the work that I do to be far more relevant to life, far more useful to society, and far more beneficial to the advancement of civilization, than a woman who earns a gender studies degree and spends her time giving lecture seminars on how horrible men are for stretching their legs on the subways and for "man-splaining" to women.

    In short, I place no value on the task of poisoning the minds of the next generation of young women, and thus I do not regard gender studies as a legitimate [let alone valuable] field.
    Last edited by ByzantinePowerGame; July 09, 2017 at 09:55 PM.
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  20. #20
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Liberals reason better than Conservatives on moral dilemmas, studies find

    OK, but that's your opinion. Not-few other people consider lawyers bad for society. There are even jokes about that. That is their opinion. A lot of people consider studying politics and becoming a politician bad for society. Same with Journalism. Same with psychology.

    I am not even sure what gender studies do and where the graduates are supposed to use that degree. But as long as I'm not paying taxes for people to study that kind of stuff, I don't mind what they do with their time and their money. I play total war games. Frankly, I consider it a better pass-time than studying for a degree in those gender studies, but I bet a lot of people would disagree and say it's a complete waste of time and money.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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