View Poll Results: Which set of rules would you like to see implemented?

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9. You may not vote on this poll
  • Option 1 (Must use all your votes, not allowed to vote for yourself unless certain conditions apply)

    0 0%
  • Option 2 (Must use all your votes, always allowed to vote for yourself)

    5 55.56%
  • Option 3 (Neither and we'll keep the current rules)

    4 44.44%
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Thread: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

  1. #1
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Option 1 Everyone MUST use all of their votes.
    You are NOT allowed to vote for yourself UNLESS
    a) It is the Picture of the Year competition
    OR
    b) There are only two submissions in the vote. For example, in a tie-break or when the vote goes ahead with only two submissions.
    As you may remember, the reasoning behind this rule can be found in the discussion that took place from Post 509 (Spear Dog's), until Post 515 (Ngugi's).


    Option 2 Voting for yourself is allowed.
    Everyone MUST use all of their votes.
    If you use more or less than the required amount of votes and don't contact the Competition Manager before the poll ends, your votes will not count


    Option 3 We will keep the current rules, and no changes will be made (i.e. no voting for yourself, and you don't have to use all of your votes).
    Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; July 11, 2017 at 05:35 AM.

  2. #2
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    I agree, my question is just this: is it voting compulsory for anyone taking part in the competitions?

  3. #3
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Nope, only if you've submitted an image and it's only compulsory voting for that particular competition.
    Eg you only submit to UESW and no other categories. That means you've gotta use all of your votes for UESW but not GPotW or PotW.




  4. #4
    Spear Dog's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    The thing that concerns me most about this rule is that I'm being obliged to vote against my own entry. Compelling people through compulsory measures is not in the spirit of voluntary participation and will not solve the issue. I expect it will affect the number of entries in each competition. I personally will not respond well to being compelled to vote against myself.

    Let's face it; that's really the issue here - the lack of voters over participants and the relatively small number of participants.
    Until the numbers can be boosted significantly, and we're talking 3 or 4 times more than current numbers, nothing will be solved.

    By separating the voters and the participants this issue becomes irrelevant, and the way to do that is to appoint a jury to decide the winners each week.
    Formalise the process and give ownership of it to the TWC community as a whole.

    Make membership of the voting panel desirable with a badge recognising time in the office and exclusive access to a special supplemental signature.

    A voting panel gives legitimacy to the vote, and if promoted and selected properly, status to the panel member which would instil a desirability within the wider forums community to being selected as a panel member.
    Further, any perceived bias by a panel member or the perception of being influenced by lobbying would be addressed by replacing them on the panel and removal of signature privileges as a penalty. If membership of the voting panel gains popular desirability correct behaviour becomes self-regulatory.



    I only want to vote on submissions I feel are worthy of the weekly accolade and generally only ever submit one vote when I vote. I usually participate in a tie break and often experience an odd feeling when I don't particularly like either picture but vote anyway.

    To be honest, I would struggle to award a 3rd vote most of the time - I can usually narrow down my preference to; either/or pretty quickly.

    Perhaps a ranked voting points system would help without the compulsion to award all votes:

    3 points = 1st preference
    2 points = 2nd preference
    1 point = 3rd preference is needed.

    These are just my thoughts and feelings and no doubt if they lead to anything the process would need to be refined and defined, but I think you can guess I won't support the current proposal. It's an easy fix, I don't think it will work and it may negatively affect the already tenuous participation rate of the competitions.

    *The impact of the 'screenshots and videos' threads in each game specific sub-forum should also needs to taken into account - they are obvious recruiting grounds for participants in the Arts forum and 'stealing our oxygen'. (so to speak )






  5. #5
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spear Dog View Post
    The thing that concerns me most about this rule is that I'm being obliged to vote against my own entry. Compelling people through compulsory measures is not in the spirit of voluntary participation and will not solve the issue. I expect it will affect the number of entries in each competition. I personally will not respond well to being compelled to vote against myself.
    The reasoning is that everyone would be obliged to vote against their own entry, and thus they'd cancel each other out and it'd avoid the problem where people don't vote at all, since they're always voting against their own entry to some degree (which I've been guilty of).




  6. #6
    Spear Dog's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    ^ Exactly! It's a zero-sum game, which means the process of voting becomes competitive in itself. People use their vote to cancel out other peoples vote in ways they perceive will benefit themselves. How can it be anything but when the people competing in the actual competition are the same people who vote to decide the outcome.






  7. #7
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Sorry but now I'm slightly lost, try to be patient and listen to me:

    UESW 389: I've tried to vote, there are three choices, the first is my screen, the other two beautiful screens are the options two and three; well, I thought that I had to use as many votes I could (without voting for myself, of course), so I've tried to vote for pic 2 and pic three, but after I've chosen one pic, then, when I try to select also the other one, my previous choice is deselected .. what am I doing wrong?

  8. #8
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spear Dog View Post
    How can it be anything but when the people competing in the actual competition are the same people who vote to decide the outcome.
    You could argue that about your idea of a committee as well to be honest.
    So pretty much, just more publicity is the key?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Sorry but now I'm slightly lost, try to be patient and listen to me:
    UESW 389: I've tried to vote, there are three choices, the first is my screen, the other two beautiful screens are the options two and three; well, I thought that I had to use as many votes I could (without voting for myself, of course), so I've tried to vote for pic 2 and pic three, but after I've chosen one pic, then, when I try to select also the other one, my previous choice is deselected .. what am I doing wrong?
    We're using the same rules as Noif had for voting.
    If there are 2 or 3 Submissions, you get one vote.
    If there are 4 or 5 Submissions, you get two votes.
    If there are 6 or 8 submissions, you get three votes.
    If there are more than nine, you get four votes or I'll just come up with a number.




  9. #9
    Spear Dog's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula View Post
    You could argue that about your idea of a committee as well to be honest.
    No, you have to understand we're talking maths here. Without workable numbers distributed in a functional ratio there is no equitable solution. You can't reach a desired outcome by having problematic numbers dance to a different tune - that's not maths, that's politics.

    The issue is not who participates but the numbers of participants and the crucial point is the separation of the submission process from the voting process; the jury members would not be participating in the actual competition - they would maintain objectivity. Further, going on a quick eyeball survey of competition submission, the Jury (if numbered at 13 persons) would guarantee that votes exceed the number of screenshots submitted and the odd number would ensure a positive result, no more 'ties'.

    If you know anyone who's adept at statistics (or if any statisticians would like to join the discussion) they can explain how sample size is implicit in outcome of any survey and how a zero-sum game is basically a no win situation.






  10. #10
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spear Dog View Post
    No, you have to understand we're talking maths here. Without workable numbers distributed in a functional ratio there is no equitable solution. You can't reach a desired outcome by having problematic numbers dance to a different tune - that's not maths, that's politics.

    The issue is not who participates but the numbers of participants and the crucial point is the separation of the submission process from the voting process; the jury members would not be participating in the actual competition - they would maintain objectivity. Further, going on a quick eyeball survey of competition submission, the Jury (if numbered at 13 persons) would guarantee that votes exceed the number of screenshots submitted and the odd number would ensure a positive result, no more 'ties'.

    If you know anyone who's adept at statistics (or if any statisticians would like to join the discussion) they can explain how sample size is implicit in outcome of any survey and how a zero-sum game is basically a no win situation.
    In my opinion the issue about any "restricted committee" is mainly about who partecipates in it.

    No
    -Gen. Chris
    Last edited by TheDarkKnight; July 07, 2017 at 09:44 PM.

  11. #11
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Ok so we're all agreed the current proposal is bad. How about this though?

    • Voting for yourself is allowed.
    • 3-4 submissions - 1 vote per person.
    • 5-7 submissions - 2 votes per person.
    • 8+ submissions - 3 votes per person.
    • When there are multiple votes all of the available ones must be used.
    • If you use more or less than the required amount of votes and do not contact the competition manager before the poll ends to change them your votes will not count.

    These are the rules that the Tale of the Week competition uses, and they work quite well I believe.
    Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; July 07, 2017 at 10:01 AM.




  12. #12
    Noif de Bodemloze's Avatar The Protector of Art
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    OK guys, chill out in here if something is proposed and please don't drive to off-topic / drama. Stay in civil.

  13. #13
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    I'm always civil when I write, Noif, ALWAYS.

    I think the main point here is the composition of such a restricted committee and I don't think being off-topic if I say that I firmly refuse the concept of any restricted comittee, in charge of deciding the quality of my pics, because I don't recognize in TWC's staff, citizens or admins, any peculiar quality concerning artistic knowledge and good taste, superior to my personal judgement, or to the personal judgement of anybody else in this site, to justify the existence of such a committee.

    That said, I also think having the holy right (coming from the fact that I've won these competitions so many times that I've forgot the total amount of my victories) to state here laud and clear that if such a rule, about a restricted committee deciding about quality of our pics, should see the light of the day here, it would be the moment for me to leave this place, to leave these competitons and also to leave this site.

    End of the absolutely-on-topic-tale, expressed in a clear, correct and aslo pretty civil way, without any drama (I don't like drama), but also with some personal melancholy about the past of TWC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula
    Ok so we're all agreed the current proposal is bad. How about this though?


    • Voting for yourself is allowed.
    • 3-4 submissions - 1 vote per person.
    • 5-7 submissions - 2 votes per person.
    • 8+ submissions - 3 votes per person.
    • When there are multiple votes all of the available ones must be used.
    • If you use more or less than the required amount of votes and do not contact the competition manager before the poll ends to change them your votes will not count.


    These are the rules that the Tale of the Week competition uses, and they work quite well I believe.
    In my opinion it may work. It's just a little complex in its mechanics but may work. In any case the point is still the same: forced voting; apart this, the idea is not bad.
    Last edited by Tango12345; July 13, 2017 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Comment on Moderation removed.

  14. #14
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    I've updated the opening post with the three options, and I've added a poll.
    Vote quickly, the poll will finish in 48 hours.




  15. #15
    Araval's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Voted

  16. #16
    Spear Dog's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    voted






  17. #17
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Voted for .. Revolution.

  18. #18
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    Option 2 barely won. These changes will take effect in all of the voting threads, for PotW, UESW, GPotW and VotM. Next week's threads will start in about 12 hours.

    You may vote for yourself.
    Everyone MUST use all of the votes available.
    If you use more or less than the required amount of votes and don't contact the Competition Manager before the poll ends, your votes will not count.

    If these rules absolutely fail somehow, they'll be revised of course but give them a go with an open mind even if you voted against the change.




  19. #19
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    There was some alleged discrepancies/shiftiness with this poll, so the old rules will stay in place until a Hex can look at it.




  20. #20
    Flinn's Avatar Jokersconi abides...
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    Default Re: Proposed New Rule (Discussion)

    We checked the edit history of the poll and we can ensure you 100% that no modification has been done, the poll is regular

    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22& Socrates1984 & Kilo11 of the Imperial House of Hader

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