Religion and Logics

[basics]

Think it isn't practical? Then give it up, the computer, the meds keeping you alive, your car, your clothes, your house...those are all products of that"impractical" science.

Sar1n,

Everything that God created even in its fallen state was put there for our benefit. All man had to do was find it. That's the practicality of it. That's why He gave us brains although it's been unfortunate that some think their brains better than the Creator's. Science is a product of what God programmed into our systems. Nothing came by chance.

[fkizz]

Everything that God created even in its fallen state was put there for our benefit. All man had to do was find it. That's the practicality of it. That's why He gave us brains although it's been unfortunate that some think their brains better than the Creator's. Science is a product of what God programmed into our systems. Nothing came by chance.

That's a good point.
People forget that technoloy was created by humans... human system was programmed/designed by God, therefore whatever is new invented by humans was made possible by God beforehand in foresight.
God gave us brains for a reason. It was not computers or AI that gave us brains capable of doing more than surviving, eating and reproducing.

[Diamat]

In the Christian tradition, it could not be said that God is divorced from Reason, just as faith cannot be said to be divorced from Reason. Just look at John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Logos." In other words, Logos (i.e., Reason) is the same thing as God. Because the Christian tradition was so heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, in its transmission and popularization, one can easily find beautiful philosophical aspects within the Bible that contain relevancy to this day.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Being logical is a state derived from life experience and education.

For example if you fall on your face as a baby you now know that it hurts and you learn to avoid falling on your face.

So, the logical thing to do is to keep avoiding smashing your nose on the floor.


Various religious doctrines contain a plethora of knowledge based on life experience and science but also contain a heck of a lot of nonsense.

The logical thing to do is to know how to differentiate complete bollocks from reality.

When you are a kid you believe in Santa, you really, really want to believe in Santa, because hey what kid doesn't like presents? Then you learn that it's a story, made to make kids behave a little more hoping for presents.

The people who made that story up were using logic like so :" Kids are dumb, if we promise them presents if they behave, they might actually behave"

This is logic in religion.

The kid believing in Santa though, is not logical. Because the kid has 0 real life experience of a man coming through the fireplace with presents. ( What if there is no fireplace?! Does he kick the door in? A kid does not understand that the doors are locked and Santa does not have the key )

So the child belief in Santa is just that, a belief that has 0 basis in logic.

Now, I'm not going to go into what adults believe, you can do that yourself, but.... religious adults also tend to believe a lot of illogical things. Because they fit their current psychological needs, like a kid who wants presents.

Paradise, 72 virgins, miracle healing, god gave my eyes back, god gave me my legs back, god saved me from that bear attack. "Presents"

If you behave!

[basics]

Emperor Arcturus Mengsk,

But the fact is that the " Santa " story is based on fact that a man delivered presents to children on the night that was the accepted time then of Jesus' birth. Don't think for a moment that all kids just accept it as true that Santa can actually come down a chimney because at some point in their advancement they will question it as I did myself. That said, what harm is there in it? One day if they ever get to attend a Sunday School they will learn that Jesus not only walked on water but could actually walk through walls as well as all the other things attributed to Him. Of course that in no way authenticates that Santa can come down chimneys but by that time in their lives it's not supposed to. The Santa story adds value to the story of Jesus in that the love of giving replaces self-centeredness and greed. To the prude there is no logic to it but to the person who freely gives to children on that accepted day what could be more logical if love is the highest attribute to hold?

[PointOfViewGun]

And I see no such leaps. Maybe I rushed things a bit in one or two posts, since some concepts are quite universally known. But I had to explain them later anyway.

Difference between science and religion can be summed up this way:
Science: We don't know what causes this, so let's poke around and figure it. THis approach brought us many things, including the computer you're using.
Religion: We don't know what causes this, so Deus Vult. This brought us quite hefty bodycount.
So yeah, the principle is totally different.

While some elements of religion can have logical relationship between them, it is not a logical system as a whole, and you can always, within religious system, find a negation to it. That is a consequence of contradictory axiom. That's why arguing with logic within a religious system is useless, which was my opener, and it was proven in original discussion, where your argumentation got slapped with Deus Vult.

You keep using that logic jump. You always resort to claiming Deus Vult as a valid argument without providing actual substance to support it.

We have two different types both for science and religion.

Science: How does an apple fall? The force of gravity between two separate object pulls them together.
Religion: How does one get in heaven? Acknowledge god as the creator and follow its principles.

Science: How does a weak force attract two objects immensely at very close proximity? It just does.
Religion: Why does Allah don't want you to eat pork? He just doesn't.

Both yield what we can consider logical or illogical results.

[DaVinci]

The human species is an inventer. From the beginning.

Gods were invented, just as later, the one-God idea (the latter, fe. because more effective and even more efficient, thus monotheism relatively a progressive step vs polytheism).

Logic is here: Gods or the one God exists in the imagination of the believer, because the 'Elders' told so *

The god-belief comes from the conflict 'early human vs nature' - conflict, includes here observation, not just only the "dangerous" nature and the implicated search for reasons of the forces, in the hope or desire to reduce the fear. Just basicly fear (and hope, which but arose from the fear). So the cult/s started.

As to topic, of course, religion has logical aspects. You can see it already in what i explained above.

It goes further with morale or religious ethic, which is bascily a combination of logic and rationality/reason.
But, that goes back to simple ethic, which is (became) a human (survival) driver.
So as i said in other threads, i think at least, first came (comes) ethic as a given within human society (since in the earliest families&tribes).
Then came the gods, to give this principle an (enduring) authority - with law character, therefor the command item within religion.

Let's say, since Nietzsche though, the acknowledged people started to see, exactly that: See first and second line.

Edit: And btw., Nietzsche solely took up the contemporary ghost of the 19th century. He himself wasn't a religion hater or something of that line (see first and second line, again - that's what he and others just realised).

* a learned property over thousands of years. Later, because the gods/god idea was implemented, people started also to 'find to God', some also even if they had doubts (but ... they search). Because it (the word of comfort) works, especially the harder the personal life experience.

[Sar1n]

You keep using that logic jump. You always resort to claiming Deus Vult as a valid argument without providing actual substance to support it.

We have two different types both for science and religion.

Science: How does an apple fall? The force of gravity between two separate object pulls them together.
Religion: How does one get in heaven? Acknowledge god as the creator and follow its principles. Why? Because he wants you to. There is nothing in basic premises of your religion that prevents him from changing this arrangement.
Science: How does a weak force attract two objects immensely at very close proximity? It just does. Wrong. Science doesn't simply say "it jsut does". It say 'we don't know yet". There is a huge difference. "We don't know yet" means we'll keep exploring the issue. This approach has proved itself and is responsible for lifting humanity from bunch of apes.
Religion: Why does Allah don't want you to eat pork? He just doesn't. There....Deus Vult.

Both yield what we can consider logical or illogical results.

Oh, the irony. Let's see...

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh, the irony. Let's see...

What irony?... Sigh... Science says "it just does" for a lot of things. The same "we don't know yet" exists for the side of the religion as well as for the religion your life doesn't necessarily end here.

[basics]

DaVinci,

As God said to Job, " Were you there when creation took place?" Nope, you weren't so your estimation is based on what? " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," and in six further days He finished it all as a populated, mature up and running planet. So, it's your word against God. But then you have to have some credit because what was the original Gospel was taken on by man and turned into various false gospels and their related religions. So no, my faith is not built on what you think, rather by experiencing God through Jesus Christ as have many others even in this modern age of knowledge and science.

[Gaidin]

.

Science: How does a weak force attract two objects immensely at very close proximity? It just does.

Did you name one of the four fundamental forces for your own amusement? We know more than "It just does", thanks.

[chriscase]

When you are a kid you believe in Santa, you really, really want to believe in Santa, because hey what kid doesn't like presents? Then you learn that it's a story, made to make kids behave a little more hoping for presents.

The people who made that story up were using logic like so :" Kids are dumb, if we promise them presents if they behave, they might actually behave"

This is logic in religion.

The kid believing in Santa though, is not logical. Because the kid has 0 real life experience of a man coming through the fireplace with presents. ( What if there is no fireplace?! Does he kick the door in? A kid does not understand that the doors are locked and Santa does not have the key )

So the child belief in Santa is just that, a belief that has 0 basis in logic.

Actually what I find egregiously pernicious about the way the Santa myth is peddled to children today is the overt appeal to magical thinking: If you believe in Santa, Santa's gifts will be yours. Ergo, lack of evidence for the existence of Santa implies a poverty of belief, or "spirit". This particularly odious nugget deliberately undermines a rational approach to the evaluation of claims about the world, and gets a lot of airplay with some of our most vulnerable young minds under the cover of "holiday cheer".

[PointOfViewGun]

Did you name one of the four fundamental forces for your own amusement? We know more than "It just does", thanks.

The point is the fundamental nature of the force. That particular example may go deeper, however, many scientific questions likely doesn't have an answer. What if Planck units are indeed the smallest measurable realities? At that point you hit a wall. Do we know why matter attract and not repel in gravitational force?

[DaVinci]

DaVinci,

As God said to Job, " Were you there when creation took place?" Nope, you weren't so your estimation is based on what? " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," and in six further days He finished it all as a populated, mature up and running planet. So, it's your word against God. But then you have to have some credit because what was the original Gospel was taken on by man and turned into various false gospels and their related religions. So no, my faith is not built on what you think, rather by experiencing God through Jesus Christ as have many others even in this modern age of knowledge and science.

Forgive me, not personal, i let you your illusions. No problem at all, because i believe you, i mean actually you, are a person which's religion does not harm others, or at least you personally won't harm others, right? ( just an assumption due to your mainly pieceful messages, iirc. ..edit: I better do not look into the anti-Islam threads though maybe you are crusader though ).

Just your creationism is not impressive in the slightest.

Needless to say, read up some science about how the universe began ... and the earth, if you wanna learn ... .

The point is the fundamental nature of the force. That particular example may go deeper, however, many scientific questions likely doesn't have an answer. What if Planck units are indeed the smallest measurable realities? At that point you hit a wall. Do we know why matter attract and not repel in gravitational force?

... ehm, only partially correct. Maybe you'll get an idea if you compare the science-knowledge from that let's say simply 2000 years ago and nowadays. And how fast it forwarded todays. If you (just we: as informed people or with the option at least) keep up with the ongoing current according sciences, your argumentation looses ground every day.
I remember i used/played with that idea of yours as i was young, younger ... i think it's "the overall force behind everything is/must be God"... up to my starting twenties, as i was still on a search in these matters.
Oh, and see my signature 'Wisdom knows Limit', this is of course right.
Nonetheless, we can firmly assume, that a few decades more, and some relevant key questions most probably are known, meant is measureable.
You get the drift?

Edit: One thing that me puzzes actually. How does it come that even the informed ones, fe. you Setekh, believe into the human/earth-centric belief system, which are the Abrahamic religions?
I tell you my assumption: Because you was educated/socialised that way, and you can't change that.

[fkizz]

The human species is an inventer. From the beginning.
Gods were invented, just as later, the one-God idea (the latter, fe. because more effective and even more efficient, thus monotheism relatively a progressive step vs polytheism).

I hope you're meaning imagining/inventing how God is rather than Humans Creating God.

Let's say, since Nietzsche though, the acknowledged people started to see, exactly that: See first and second line.

Edit: And btw., Nietzsche solely took up the contemporary ghost of the 19th century. He himself wasn't a religion hater or something of that line (see first and second line, again - that's what he and others just realised).

Nietzsche obvsiouly hated Christianity, while praising Islam and Hinduism (mainly because of the Hindu caste system, and the Brahmins). Going fully by Nietzsche logic, one should be more Islam friendly and much more open to a society highly divided in classes with religious motivation for such.

Edit: One thing that me puzzes actually. How does it come that even the informed ones, fe. you Setekh, believe into the human/earth-centric belief system, which are the Abrahamic religions?

That's a very clumsy post at best. Christianism is mostly Afterlife focused, both rewards and punishments. By the way, afterlife is not Earth, that may be the thing in Hinduism, but not the Christian idea. At least know that Christianity philosophy is heavily linked to Plato, is it much to ask?
Even Islam does not consider Earthly life to be the big slice of the pie. Neither Judaism. Neither Buddhism.
You could have a point with Hinduism and its derivates maybe but that's it.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Actually what I find egregiously pernicious about the way the Santa myth is peddled to children today is the overt appeal to magical thinking: If you believe in Santa, Santa's gifts will be yours. Ergo, lack of evidence for the existence of Santa implies a poverty of belief, or "spirit". This particularly odious nugget deliberately undermines a rational approach to the evaluation of claims about the world, and gets a lot of airplay with some of our most vulnerable young minds under the cover of "holiday cheer".

This is a common phenomenon in how religion is passed on to children. Just the other day I was going somewhere on foot, and I overheard an elderly lady with a young boy, presumably her grandchild. The part that I overheard while passing by was this: "But grandma how can god see if I'm being nice or not?"

"He can see because he is everywhere."

And then the kid threw this gem: "Is he in Russia too???"



And she replied: "Yes he is everywhere and can see everything"

I mean... it seems to me that most adults who are staunch believers just happened to be in this kids place at some point but they never outgrew these teachings, they held on to them.

[basics]

Actually what I find egregiously pernicious about the way the Santa myth is peddled to children today is the overt appeal to magical thinking: If you believe in Santa, Santa's gifts will be yours. Ergo, lack of evidence for the existence of Santa implies a poverty of belief, or "spirit". This particularly odious nugget deliberately undermines a rational approach to the evaluation of claims about the world, and gets a lot of airplay with some of our most vulnerable young minds under the cover of "holiday cheer".

chriscase,

How many supposed adults are playing role games online with pretty much the same enthusiasm that children who waken up to a pile of presents on Christmas morning? This site is built on the prospect of someone being the general of his or her own army to defeat an enemy and yes to some it's a matter of life and death whereas to to others it's a game that takes one away from the mundane things of life. It's all harmless fun or should be but at least the Santa story is based on a factual event that did take place that points to the most important event that took place in the history of the world. Yes, it has taken on a meaning on its own through the ones that peddle their wares at Christmas but the basis is still there that any mum or dad can correct when the child is ready in their opinion to know that Santa isn't real. That knowledge does not however diminish the joy and pleasure on the faces of kids and adults when they open their presents. Do we all have to be fuddy duddies?

[DaVinci]

I hope you're meaning imagining/inventing how God is rather than Humans Creating God.


Nietzsche obvsiouly hated Christianity, while praising Islam and Hinduism (mainly because of the Hindu caste system, and the Brahmins). Going fully by Nietzsche logic, one should be more Islam friendly and much more open to a society highly divided in classes with religious motivation for such.



That's a very clumsy post at best. Christianism is mostly Afterlife focused, both rewards and punishments. By the way, afterlife is not Earth, that may be the thing in Hinduism, but not the Christian idea. At least know that Christianity philosophy is heavily linked to Plato, is it much to ask?
Even Islam does not consider Earthly life to be the big slice of the pie. Neither Judaism. Neither Buddhism.
You could have a point with Hinduism and its derivates maybe but that's it.

fkizz, as so often, you have no understanding of what i'm talking about. Same for Nietzsche and you, but we have not Nietzsche on topic here, so spared.
That you and me agree on something are just very seldom TWC events

Little trial: See my post #47 again. That is based on science and logic. If you have something to say about that with sense, then please try this level as well.

For my post #54 a re-trial. What means "earth-centric" belief system and the relation of the my question why informed people stick with this? In simple terms, science shows us evidently, that the earth is a planet within uncountable ones, a for us un-imagine-able huge and complex system at work, from the beginning. How comes that people believe indeed, this tiny bit small share (the earth ... and "heaven and hell") of the universes would be the only or main focus by "god's creation"? Just on which all abrahamic religious incl. nature-religious belief-systems base on in its creation ferrytales? This is definitley puzzling. Unless the believers have no idea about the science, as it was over the thousands and hundreds of years within the human's development. And thus, doesn't work (count) anymore. Do you see the logic in this, what i'm saying? Perhaps you can reply with logic as well.

[Diocle]

fkizz, as so often, you have no understanding of what i'm talking about. Same for Nietzsche and you, but we have not Nietzsche on topic here, so spared.
That you and me agree on something are just very seldom TWC events

Little trial: See my post #47 again. That is based on science and logic. If you have something to say about that with sense, then please try this level as well.

For my post #54 a re-trial. What means "earth-centric" belief system and the relation of the my question why informed people stick with this? In simple terms, science shows us evidently, that the earth is a planet within uncountable ones, a for us un-imagine-able huge and complex system at work, from the beginning. How comes that people believe indeed, this tiny bit small share (the earth ... and "heaven and hell") of the universes would be the only or main focus by "god's creation"? Just on which all abrahamic religious incl. nature-religious belief-systems base on in its creation ferrytales? This is definitley puzzling. Unless the believers have no idea about the science, as it was over the thousands and hundreds of years within the human's development. And thus, doesn't work (count) anymore. Do you see the logic in this, what i'm saying? Perhaps you can reply with logic as well.

Logics and Religion belong to the same universe: metaphysics.

The first scientists were all religious men, no matter if Pagans or Christians.

Believe me: before talking of such matters you should read more, a lot more.

[basics]

DaVinci,

My preconceived notions and belief comes from God Himself just as He had Moses inform the Israelites and then us of. Why even the most atheistic scientists admit now that creation had a beginning and that the complexities of what we now see and know some are coming to the conclusion that design is the integral portion that they didn't want to admit to but now cannot avoid it. Perhaps it is with most scientists that they lock themselves away from the world too much, never seeing what the average bloke does and so misses out on the simple little unexplainables that God does in everyday life for those that know him as well as those that don't, them seeing it yet not understanding. Perhaps instead of challenging science they should challenge God personally.