Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Just wondering....mangonels

  1. #1
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Just wondering....mangonels

    I was wondering why no faction that I know of including in mods have any mangonels, any reason why? If they weren't using catapults Ect the mangonels should have been a common weapon too.
    Last edited by Incredible Bulk; July 04, 2017 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #2
    Maenor's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Chile
    Posts
    56

    Default Re: Just wondering....

    Quote Originally Posted by Incredible Bulk View Post
    I was wondering why no faction that I know of including in mods have any mangonels, any reason why? If they weren't using catapults Ect the mangonels should have been a common weapon too.
    My "History" knowledge is pretty much nonexistent, but still, Mangonels are supposed to be Static Artillery, aren't they?

    Other than "for Historical-Accuracy sake" i don't really see a Valid Gameplay reason to add them, much less to the Third Age mod! Middle Earth was actually very lacking on siege engines! If i remember correctly the only mention of siege related engines are in the siege of Gondor, and that's from Sauron part (There is also a time Melkor says something about engineers/like guys creation something for destruction, no quote right now)

    Technology(Specially warfare technology) tends to be a "Bad guys" thing, the good people rarely applies technology in battle with the Numenoreans being kinda of the exception, even with the dwarves! There isn't a single mention of Dwarves using siege engines or artillery that i know of.

    Only reason i can see this having a reason to be added is for increased accuracy while staying safe from the Town or castle defenses, but still, you can just tweak a couple of numbers on the projectile files and you are done with it!

    I see Mangonels as a pretty nice addition to Historical Mods not Fantasy ones .... it could also work for Bannerlord/Warband

  3. #3
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....

    I can see the Dwarves and Isengard been advanced technology wise to implement them

  4. #4

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    DaC added them for OotMM.

    Isildur and Anárion preview out



    DCI: Last Alliance
    - WIP Second Age mod
    | DCI: Tôl Acharn - mighty Dúnedain Counter Invasions |
    Additional Mercenary Minimod - more mercs; for TATW and DCI |Family Tree minimods - lore improvements | Remade Event Pictures - enhance cultures trough images |
    Favorite TATW compilation: Withwnars Submod Collection

    The Sundering
    - a M2 Warhammer Total War experience


    Patron of Mank, Kiliç Alì, FireFreak111, MIKEGOLF & Arachir Galudirithon

  5. #5
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    DaC added them for OotMM.
    Really? I can't believe I've never noticed blood in my defense I've only been playing dividing conquer for two days but I usually always go through each faction and look at the roster when I start a new mod.
    The reason that I mentioned that I thought the dwarves and Isengard where the most advanced technology wise. It's because of what you see in the bins in the battle of the five armies those little guys and it's a pretty cool weapons and in the two towers apparently they had gun powder That Isengard used.

  6. #6
    Maenor's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Chile
    Posts
    56

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Quote Originally Posted by Incredible Bulk View Post
    The reason that I mentioned that I thought the dwarves and Isengard where the most advanced technology wise. It's because of what you see in the bins in the battle of the five armies those little guys and it's a pretty cool weapons and in the two towers apparently they had gun powder That Isengard used.
    You like to assume a lot of things don't you

  7. #7
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Quote Originally Posted by Maenor View Post
    You like to assume a lot of things don't you
    Yes and every time I do I just make an @$$ out of my self

  8. #8
    Maenor's Avatar Libertus
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Chile
    Posts
    56

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    hahaha don't you even worry xP

    if we are technical the community has been doing that since the first media adaptation of Tolkien ever came out!

    Elves don't use curved swords, Dwarves never "mounted" animals for war (No, not even mountain goats Tolkien specifically said they didn't) nor did they used Mithril Axes or new technologies in the battlefields other than hardened steel, Uruk-Hai being made by Saruman for the White Hand and exclusive to Isengard, Eriador as a whole and all the business with the Wars in the North, Shadow of Mordor and War, etc

    All of that AND more are assumptions made by Fans, Authors, Designers, etc assumptions for the sake of fun i guess but assumptions nonetheless.

    It's not a bad thing tho... With some limits

  9. #9
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
    Moderation Mentor Citizen

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Heerlen, Limburg
    Posts
    11,641

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Quote Originally Posted by Incredible Bulk View Post
    Really? I can't believe I've never noticed blood in my defense I've only been playing dividing conquer for two days but I usually always go through each faction and look at the roster when I start a new mod.
    The reason that I mentioned that I thought the dwarves and Isengard where the most advanced technology wise. It's because of what you see in the bins in the battle of the five armies those little guys and it's a pretty cool weapons and in the two towers apparently they had gun powder That Isengard used.
    I think the mangonels will be in the next version, so they're not in the game yet.
    As for the Dwarves and Isengard being in front in terms of technology, I don't think Tolkien ever describes them as being technologically superior but then again he doesn't go in depth on a lot of things. There are however fairly logical steps one can make, the Dwarves are known to be excellent craftsmen, lesser in skill only to the Noldor and perhaps the Numenorians in their prime, whereas Saruman is a follower of Aulë. Both thus possess a lot of skill, which is of course a requirement for technological advancement. This doesn't necessarily mean advanced artillery though, battles are rare in Middle Earth and sieges even rarer due to ridiculously low amount of large or fortified settlements so there would be little use for artillery.

  10. #10
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    I think the mangonels will be in the next version, so they're not in the game yet.
    As for the Dwarves and Isengard being in front in terms of technology, I don't think Tolkien ever describes them as being technologically superior but then again he doesn't go in depth on a lot of things. There are however fairly logical steps one can make, the Dwarves are known to be excellent craftsmen, lesser in skill only to the Noldor and perhaps the Numenorians in their prime, whereas Saruman is a follower of Aulë. Both thus possess a lot of skill, which is of course a requirement for technological advancement. This doesn't necessarily mean advanced artillery though, battles are rare in Middle Earth and sieges even rarer due to ridiculously low amount of large or fortified settlements so there would be little use for artillery.
    So the next version, 2.0? Or next update 1.3?

  11. #11
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
    Moderation Mentor Citizen

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Heerlen, Limburg
    Posts
    11,641

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Quote Originally Posted by Incredible Bulk View Post
    So the next version, 2.0? Or next update 1.3?
    The next version is 2.0, as far as I know there is no new patch being planned.

  12. #12
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Gotcha thanks

  13. #13
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Stayin' Alive
    Posts
    3,051

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Sieges are way too easy as is, and once you breach the walls or gates the BAI just retreats to the town square for the player to kill at range easily or whatever they want without fear of retaliation since the BAI never goes far from the square. I would imagine this is why no one added such a thing before.

    I did a lot to settlement siege stuff, but pretty much everything I did made defending the settlement easier not harder (especially since the layout are so unrealistic and therefore harder than they should be to defend, i.e. castles were usually defended by only a few hundred against thousands of attackers at a severe disadvantage due to the actual castle defenses since only a fraction of those thousands could assault the castle at once). Adding in more and/or better siege equipment will just make it even easier to unrealistically knock down those walls super fast and rush your whole army through huge unrealistic gaps incredibly fast...

    I agree about Middle-earth not really needing such devices as well. The few heavily fortified places there are in the lore built by the Numenoreans (and caves by the Elves and Dwarves) would be immune to such devices, most everywhere else probably just had a wooden wall unless there was more stone/clay than wood around (i.e. part of Harad maybe).
    Last edited by alreadyded; July 05, 2017 at 11:58 PM.

  14. #14
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    This weapon is not used solely or primarily as a siege weapon. It's has burning barrels they explode you use those in the battlefield to scare horseman to scare infantryman. When the barrels explode in the air all the burning oil falls from the sky burning everyone

  15. #15
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Stayin' Alive
    Posts
    3,051

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    How about a source? Nothing I ever read fits that. I fail to see how you could assault your opponent on the battlefield with it unless they were not moving away constantly (because they are besieged in a defensible position). You would have to lug it around or build it on the spot, not good for tactical maneuvering at a time when there were very few roads. It could be used as a defensive weapon while under siege, flinging objects into a field of attackers, but that is still a siege. From what I read it was just a simpler catapult that could not throw as large or as heavy objects as far but at a higher angle (over the walls like a treb). It was also so incredibly inaccurate that it was hard to hit huge non-moving objects, on a battlefield it wouldn't do much except cause smoke and confusion unless it was really noisy like rockets that used gunpowder (the rockets didn't do jack, the noise did).

    All of this is irrelevant though, we are discussing m2tw gameplay here which is siegefests, you will be flinging crap into a packed town square of stoopid AI troops once you knock down their walls uncontested and they abandon them. More weapons to make it even easier to win heroic victories just isn't going to do much for gameplay was my point (a siege or field battle), whether it is historically accurate doesn't matter to me. I was just guessing why the devs (and modders) didn't bother adding in more siege equipment. There are quite a few things that could be added historically, but to what end? I think moving barriers to protect troops as they assault the walls would be a better addition, assuming the BAI made use of it, but even that would make attacking settlements even easier so I never added it.

    If the settlements were a bit more realistic then more siege stuff would be nice, the settlements are all too easy to attack as is making the unit not even needed. Just go into the edu and double the replen for catapults and you will see what I am talking about. I actually did this intentionally in the First Age campaigns for Morgoth's factions, makes it so hard to defend the settlements (even though I added a lot of HP to gates and walls). Which is fine when you are defending like in the First Age, but TATW is all attacking AI settlements asap so you don't get spammed in the long run.
    Last edited by alreadyded; July 06, 2017 at 09:11 AM.

  16. #16
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Seems that you never used at yourself in game
    play. . I was suggest playing your kingdoms expansion game and using it. It was first introduced in the kingdoms expansion. I believe the only factions that have it are tectonic order and Byzantine empire

  17. #17
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Stayin' Alive
    Posts
    3,051

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Not even sure what you mean by that comment. Yes I have used them. They are more siege equipment. I already stated my point, if you want to ignore it fine. I am not trying to prove anything, merely stating the obvious. Even in this game you can't catch up to armies that don't have siege equipment on the strat map when your army does. And on the battlefield all troops can move faster to stay out of range. The game does depict what I was referring to. All that aside though, the settlement layouts and BAI blows! If you were defending that would be good for gameplay perhaps (as in the First Age where I did just such a thing), but when all the player really does is attack other than defending maybe one chokepoint (ya give them another unit to make that even easier too...) what does it add it gameplay? The BAI just sucks too much even in field battles so more player advantage is all you are adding.
    Last edited by alreadyded; July 06, 2017 at 09:31 AM.

  18. #18
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    Well I do disagree with you will just leave it at that because I've used him as non-siege weapons and they perfectly fine. Used them against elephants they did their job. No need to go back-and-forth
    Last edited by Incredible Bulk; July 06, 2017 at 09:41 AM.

  19. #19
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Stayin' Alive
    Posts
    3,051

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    I realize in the game they work just fine as non-siege, I was referring to how they were used historically in that regard. In the game the BAI is too dumb to know what to do, get out of range or rush in while the enemy is disassembling, displacing, and reassembling their equipment. The player makes better use of range units period, even adding in more archers just makes the game easier for the player. I think this is why more units were not added to the game is all. This game is by no means historically accurate so that is not a reason to not add it and use it however anyone wants to. I bring siege stuff to field battles sometimes too, never said I didn't. I personally wouldn't want to add in more siege stuff unless I was on the defensive though since this game is way too easy as it is. I realize a lot of people around here don't care about that and just want more units to go win the campaign in less than 100 turns. I made all ranged units more rare in my mod for gameplay's sake more than anything else even though it is also more realistic that way too since it takes years to get good with a bow.

    From what I read of history many many types of various siege equipment existed because there really were no standards for such things (usually built at the siege so probably not well made on average either). The term mangonel is a general term for the method many things of many sizes and shapes use to fling crap from what I read.
    Last edited by alreadyded; July 06, 2017 at 10:12 AM.

  20. #20
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,412

    Default Re: Just wondering....mangonels

    I agree with you 100% the way that it supposed to work in real life it's just a poorly made catapult however that's not the way that it works in the game it's actually very different from the catapult that it can be used in non-siege situations.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •