[Gaming Staff] An Hour of Wolves and Shattered Shields (ENDED - GOOD SIDE VICTORY)

[Hannibal2001]

And no i wouldn't I've had that happened to me numerous times when TATW HS'ing use to be incredibly active, in-fact Joerock did it to me before i quit TATW. Yes it's not exactly fair but in reality there is not much you could've done regardless. It's a cheap move, and only works half the time.

My arguments were made so I won't continue this debate any further.The move is not exactly fair hence why I commented in the first place.

[joerock22]

Gimli is correct that this move has always been allowed in Third Age, to the best of my knowledge, and that I personally have done it to him before. It's a move Gondor can always make, if they get lucky and the gates open on turn 1. So this will work about a third of the time. It can also work on turn 2, again maybe a little more than a third of the time. But as Hannibal stated, nothing is guaranteed. If Gondor's spy does not open the gates, then Mordor can potentially reinforce with sufficient troops to have the spy garrison rule come into effect.

Third Age is a game where factions generally start a fair distance from each other. As far as I know, Osgiliath is the only place two factions can actively engage each other on turn 1. However, in other sections the rule against attacking people on turn 1 who haven't played seems to be pretty standard, though by no means is it included in every hotseat.

I would say the default answer should be that it is allowed, since that's the way we've always done it. But if a majority wants to change it we can.

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

I think an apology is in order. As admins, we should have considered this option.

As far as my experience goes, of several years of TATW, it has not happened that frequently. As Joe stated, the chance is about 1/3rd.

Here in TATW we don't have a turn of peace, because most factions can not attack each other on the first turn. The only exception is that Gondor could attack Mordor.. We are aware that in most (if not all) other mods there is a turn of peace, hence our apologies for this unfortunate situation.

From Gimli's perspective I can see why it should be allowed, it has always been the case and it has happened to him before. (Though, if you can open it on turn 1, there is absolutely no guarantee you can open it on turn 2, to correct this error of thinking. RNG is RNG). From Hannibal's perspective I can also see why it should not be allowed. After all, he is used to a turn of peace and he rightfully stated he can not even choose to defend or retreat his forces.

So here is how I think we can solve this:
1) Put it up to a vote whether or not we allow this move. Unfortunately, I can see how all people from the Good alliance will allow it and the Evil alliance will not. Can people be unbiased?
2) We allow the move, but we compensate Mordor with the units he lost at Osgiliath, except the general.
3) Joe's default answer, we allow it.
4) *Your suggestions*.....

My point is that I don't want either side to feel disadvantaged or have a bad feeling going forwards. Hence I would like to find a solution to keep both sides happy. So speak up!

[Hannibal2001]

I think an apology is in order. As admins, we should have considered this option.

As far as my experience goes, of several years of TATW, it has not happened that frequently. As Joe stated, the chance is about 1/3rd.

Here in TATW we don't have a turn of peace, because most factions can not attack each other on the first turn. The only exception is that Gondor could attack Mordor.. We are aware that in most (if not all) other mods there is a turn of peace, hence our apologies for this unfortunate situation.

From Gimli's perspective I can see why it should be allowed, it has always been the case and it has happened to him before. (Though, if you can open it on turn 1, there is absolutely no guarantee you can open it on turn 2, to correct this error of thinking. RNG is RNG). From Hannibal's perspective I can also see why it should not be allowed. After all, he is used to a turn of peace and he rightfully stated he can not even choose to defend or retreat his forces.

So here is how I think we can solve this:
1) Put it up to a vote whether or not we allow this move. Unfortunately, I can see how all people from the Good alliance will allow it and the Evil alliance will not. Can people be unbiased?
2) We allow the move, but we compensate Mordor with the units he lost at Osgiliath, except the general.
3) Joe's default answer, we allow it.
4) *Your suggestions*.....

My point is that I don't want either side to feel disadvantaged or have a bad feeling going forwards. Hence I would like to find a solution to keep both sides happy. So speak up!

I vote for not allowing the move bassically because it would be an early advantage for their team and if Gimli still thinks he can do the same thing next turn sure why not I really want to see how he manages. But as we saw in Captaininnorway's post I don't think they'll agree so here the admins need to enforce this if necesary.

[vpcm12]

Tbh, even if I was in the good alliance I would agree that the move should be reverted, and I sure hope that at least one player sees that, and so my vote is for not allowing it. But in case that it turns out to be as the admins predict (where everyone will be biased), the LEAST that could be done is giving his troops back (or maybe just give the general but not the troops?).

[joerock22]

I am going to post something so everyone has all of the facts:

- Borthor (Gondor's spy) starts out with 2 subterfuge, one from natural ability and one from skill (inconspicuous)
- the natural ability trait will never increase
- the inconspicuous trait will increase to adept spy, granting 3 total subterfuge
- at 2 subterfuge, the chance of opening the gates is 24%. At 3 subterfuge, the chance is 32%. So Gimli obviously got the inconspicuous trait to upgrade if he's saying he had a 32% chance. In my experience, no matter how hard he tries, he will never be able to get that trait to upgrade again on turn 2. The next level of that trait requires more experience than can be earned in a single turn

I'm not a math expert, but I ran the probabilities through an online calculator, assuming Gondor had two opportunities at 32% for each one:

Odds of success: 54%
Odds of failure: 46%

So 54% of the time, the gates will open on turn 1 or 2. About 46% of the time, both attempts fail and Mordor is able to keep East Osgiliath if he moves appropriately.

So the question here is this: what percentage should Gondor get to capture East Osgiliath, 54% or 32%? East Osgiliath is between Gondor and Mordor and strategically important to both. Is it fair that both sides have an approximately equal chance to possess it going forward?

[Belthasar Bolton]

On a different note does anyone have one gigantic download folder I can used for TA? I've tried multiple times in the past with the two part download and it never worked.

On the subject of the siege I vote in favor of the siege being disallowed. I don't support turn one attacks because players don't have a chance to defend themselves.

[Gimli]

Honestly, you already know my answer. Quite a few of Third Age Total Wars best have used this move (Nice, Joe, ect ect) on turn 1, and it was never disallowed then. Whether or not it is fair, is not up to me decide. In my opinion it's too late to reverse the move because now he'll specifically be aware of what i would try to do the next turn. I think it's ironic that this move has happened to be quite a few times, but now i cant use it

I say refund the units lost or more if needed, but to completely reverse the move is too far.

[Hannibal2001]

he'll specifically be aware of what i would try to do the next turn.

Oh for gods sake stop it even a blind man in New York would have seen this move . Every hotseat on this forum has this rule exept for this one which gives you an advantage against my team from the first turn.Come at me on the battlefield lets see who wins


Also I don't want the units I want Osgiliath which I'm pretty sure I can defend it if given the chance.

[Hannibal2001]

On a different note does anyone have one gigantic download folder I can used for TA? I've tried multiple times in the past with the two part download and it never worked.

On the subject of the siege I vote in favor of the siege being disallowed. I don't support turn one attacks because players don't have a chance to defend themselves.

Better reinstall step by step and merge the files one by one.

[Belthasar Bolton]

Alright so I've successfully installed TA 3.2 now which additional files do I need to download for this hotseat?

[vpcm12]

I believe thats all you need

[Narsils_Shards]

No, there's additional files. I'll find where they are for you Bolton.

Edit: Alright, so unless it's changed recently, the hotseat files are in a sticky thread that was started by JWANT over a year ago called Unofficial Hotseat Patch 0.21. What I've done personally is have a separate folder for Hotseats and another for personal games.

[Belthasar Bolton]

No, there's additional files. I'll find where they are for you Bolton.

Edit: Alright, so unless it's changed recently, the hotseat files are in a sticky thread that was started by JWANT over a year ago called Unofficial Hotseat Patch 0.21.

Thank you +rep to you sir

Edit: I applied that patch to the mod and then attempted to load the Gordon start save. I've been met with CTDs every time I load the save.

[Hannibal2001]

Thank you +rep to you sir

Edit: I applied that patch to the mod and then attempted to load the Gordon start save. I've been met with CTDs every time I load the save.

Are we using that patch anyway? I loaded it without the patch and it worked

[Belthasar Bolton]

I'll have to try without it now lol

[joerock22]

No, we are not using the patch. This is on vanilla TATW 3.2. The patch was not tested thoroughly enough to use it for reviving the section. I know how to fairly balance a game on vanilla, but not on the patch.

[Belthasar Bolton]

I wish someone had warned me before I spent half an hour trying to make it work

[Narsils_Shards]

Darn, I tried to help though.


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[Belthasar Bolton]

Darn, I tried to help though.


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I appreciate the help I tried the save in 3.2 and it works