Which culture is a rape culture?

[ioannis76]

Who said anything about YOU personally. Did you even READ the thread title? Or are you attempting to bait me into going for a personal attack. Well, I am not going to nor is there any point in doing so. We are talking about RAPE CULTURE. I explained, that in the muslim culture the concept of DOMINATION is prevalent. One is the "master" and another is the "slave". I did this, by bringing examples from countries very far away from each other, with much different backgrounds, but with one common denominator: Islamic faith.
In the case of Mauritania, it couldn't be clearer. The country practically (even if not officially any more) has slavery. Officially, it was only abandoned in the 1980's.
Similarly, countries such as Quatar, allow the employers to keep the passports of their foreign employees.
A "slave culture" is essentially a rape culture. It's that simple, because of the power dynamics.

[PointOfViewGun]

Who said anything about YOU personally. Did you even READ the thread title? Or are you attempting to bait me into going for a personal attack. Well, I am not going to nor is there any point in doing so. We are talking about RAPE CULTURE. I explained, that in the muslim culture the concept of DOMINATION is prevalent. One is the "master" and another is the "slave". I did this, by bringing examples from countries very far away from each other, with much different backgrounds, but with one common denominator: Islamic faith.
In the case of Mauritania, it couldn't be clearer. The country practically (even if not officially any more) has slavery. Officially, it was only abandoned in the 1980's.
Similarly, countries such as Quatar, allow the employers to keep the passports of their foreign employees.
A "slave culture" is essentially a rape culture. It's that simple, because of the power dynamics.

You talked about Muslims. It's logical for any Muslim to ask you what cultural practice of theirs accept rape and discrimination against women.

Your tangent about slavery is quite a stretch. First of all, it's not practiced in overwhelming majority of Muslim-majority countries, if at all. If anyone pointed out all the Christian-majority countries in the world that practiced slavery in history would you accept that they have a culture of rape? Not really. Because it's a pretty stupid argument devoid of any sense or logic.

In any case, slavery is not a topic of concern for any millions of Muslims. So, how what is part of their culture practice that accept rape and discrimination of women?

[ioannis76]

If anyone pointed out all the Christian-majority countries in the world that practiced slavery in history would you accept that they have a culture of rape?

That's why Christian-majority countries are not rape cultures, because they abandoned the practice of slavery. When they DID practice slavery, yes, the culture of rape did exist.

[PointOfViewGun]

That's why Christian-majority countries are not rape cultures, because they abandoned the practice of slavery. When they DID practice slavery, yes, the culture of rape did exist.

So, back then, if a few of them practiced slavery it meant that all Christianity had a culture of rape?

[ioannis76]

Why do you divert the subject to the past? This is a WHOLE subject. You can start a thread a bout Christianity and slavery, and we can discuss it there. This subject is about THE PRESENT. Isn't the islamic culture all about dominators and dominated? NOW, TODAY, not 500 years ago. Yes, it is, or No it isn't. Simple.

[PointOfViewGun]

Why do you divert the subject to the past? This is a WHOLE subject. You can start a thread a bout Christianity and slavery, and we can discuss it there. This subject is about THE PRESENT. Isn't the islamic culture all about dominators and dominated? NOW, TODAY, not 500 years ago. Yes, it is, or No it isn't. Simple.

I'm testing whether the standard you use is a bigoted one or not. Given you deflected from answering the last question tells me that it was. My questioning basically exposes the problems with the arguments you're using. If you answered my question saying that because a few Christian nations practiced slavery it meant that all Christendom is to be blamed for it then I would simply point out how illogical that and you using a few, or one, Muslim-majority country to blame entire Muslim world is. If you said no to my question then I would point out the double standards you're applying today.

500 years ago? Slavery in Europe (including the Ottoman Empire) was abolished about 150-200 years ago.

[ioannis76]

Oh, that recently 200 years ago. Really?
Like I said, we are talking about what is going on NOW. NOT 200 years ago. Do you demy that the muslim culture is a culture of dominator and dominated? The fact that YOU avoid answering that question shows me that you cannot possibly deny that.
In which western country aren't the muslims aggressive against the natives and wish to DOMINATE them?
Can you read the signs they hold?

Netherlands:

"Islam will DOMINATE".
"Sharia for the Netherlands".

London:

"exterminate those who slander Islam"
"massacre those who insult islam"

London again:


France:


"Sharia 4 France"
"Go to hellfire"

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh, that recently 200 years ago. Really?
Like I said, we are talking about what is going on NOW. NOT 200 years ago. Do you demy that the muslim culture is a culture of dominator and dominated? The fact that YOU avoid answering that question shows me that you cannot possibly deny that.
In which western country aren't the muslims aggressive against the natives and wish to DOMINATE them?
Can you read the signs they hold?
Netherlands:
"Islam will DOMINATE".
"Sharia for the Netherlands".
London:
"exterminate those who slander Islam"
"massacre those who insult islam"
London again:
France:
"Sharia 4 France"
"Go to hellfire"

Really. It was not 500 years ago... We're talking about a standard you're using though. I explained that quite extensively. So, it doesn't matter if we're talking about 200 years ago, 500 years ago, a millenia ago, or today. Asking you whether you'd judge the entirety of Christendom as having a culture of rape because a few Christian nations practiced slavery is a quite valid question.

I don't deny that the Muslim culture is a culture of dominator and dominated. I reject it. I hope you understand the difference, and I hope you understand how idiotic it is to suggest that it is. Which countries have Muslims that are not aggressive against natives and not wish to dominate them? Netherlands, United Kingdom, France, etc. All these countries have hundred thousand or millions (depending on the Muslim population size) of Muslims that have nothing to do with aggressiveness towards natives or desires to dominate them. What you're trying to do here is pure demagogy of the most bigoted form.

[ioannis76]

So, it doesn't matter if we're talking about 200 years ago, 500 years ago, a millenia ago, or today

That would have been a good signature if I didn't already have one. Your best quote though, is already taken, the one about ISIS not being in any way shape or form related to Islam. Cool story, bro.

I don't deny that the Muslim culture is a culture of dominator and dominated. I reject it.

You can deny whatever you like, m8. The point is, the evidence is there.

What you're trying to do here is pure demagogy of the most bigoted form.

Am I? More and more westerners believe this "demagogy", as you call it, because more and more of them are waking up to THE FACTS.

[PointOfViewGun]

That would have been a good signature if I didn't already have one. Your best quote though, is already taken, the one about ISIS not being in any way shape or form related to Islam. Cool story, bro.

If you ignore the context, sure.

You can deny whatever you like, m8. The point is, the evidence is there.

What is the evidence?

Am I? More and more westerners believe this "demagogy", as you call it, because more and more of them are waking up to THE FACTS.

This is not waking up to the facts. It's quite apparent from the fact that you're taking a step away from talking about actual substance.

[ioannis76]

The islamic need to dominate, take over, control and destroy is very well documented. Here is a video from only about 9 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4EpCwhgOCE

The same kind of rhetoric we hear now. Muslim domination worldwide.

It is most fortunate, that, even this late, the West is beginning to wake up to this most vile threat.

[PointOfViewGun]

The islamic need to dominate, take over, control and destroy is very well documented. Here is a video from only about 9 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4EpCwhgOCE
The same kind of rhetoric we hear now. Muslim domination worldwide.
It is most fortunate, that, even this late, the West is beginning to wake up to this most vile threat.

Sigh... You're telling me that a YouTube video with a bunch of footage from random people or preachers talking about Islam conquering the world is evidence that Muslims have a culture of domination? I'm sorry but I have higher standards for evidence, logic and common sense. If you think the West is beginning to wake up with videos like this then it means that they're merely giving into bigotry and ignorance.

[ioannis76]

No, I'm not telling you anything. I am not trying to convince you of anything, because regardless of how much evidence is presented, your positions will be those that suit your interests. I am showing this for the benefit of the Greeks and the Westerners.

[PointOfViewGun]

No, I'm not telling you anything. I am not trying to convince you of anything, because regardless of how much evidence is presented, your positions will be those that suit your interests. I am showing this for the benefit of the Greeks and the Westerners.

My position is not based on my interest. I'm not sure what my position here has anything to do with any interest I have. My position is based on actual facts and reality. I simply have a much higher standard for them as I said before. To be honest, posting of such a YouTube video is a rather embarrassing argument tool to use. It hurts your case more than it helps. For example, you could talk about the numerous Muslim military bases stationed in non-Muslim countries around the world, or the number of countries and instances where Muslim armies invaded or used power plays to install friendlier or controllable governments. Those would certainly help your position a lot more. Posting random preacher's comments that Islam will conquer the world someday is not a good way to establish that Islam as a religion is a religion of domination. To insist on such a line of thinking, however, in light of accusing Muslims of having cultural practices that accept rape and discrimination against women simply shows that you made a negative claim that was quite insulting without making sure you had some substance to back it up. As a result we're in this utter mess that you created.

[ByzantinePowerGame]

as silly as assuming "all women want to be raped".

It is the most common sexual fantasy consistently reported by women when they are surveyed and asked about their sexual fantasies.

[ioannis76]

That doesn't mean that all women have it, though. Furthermore, I don't think that most of the women who report such fantasies actually realise what rape is. Most imagine "rough sex" with a Brad Pitt looking guy.

[Muizer]

Most unfortunately, this is exactly their stance. And bearing the hypocritical attitude they do, they will condemn a western man for "manspreading", but will not condemn a muslim rape gang in Sweden.

Seems to me that's the stance Americans complain about when they talk of Political correctness. The context for PC in Europe is not the same though. I think most Americans would agree that all cultural groups are supposed to have equal rights, and that if reality does not reflect that, that is not a good thing. The debate about 'PC' there concerns how to go about working towards that idea. European countries, on the other hand, have very strong dominant cultures. Rants against PC there tend to be the complaint of those who feel constrained in asserting their cultural dominance by the legal reality of equal rights.

[Dr. Croccer]

Yes, I am of the OPINION that "Western Culture" as you put it, propagates the act of rape. Why? Because it is by its nature a 'culture' that is built upon the societal misogyny, sexism and especially patriarchal values that seek to undermine and oppress the 'other.'

In what possible sense is modern Western society based on 'misogyny' and 'sexism' ('patriarchal' is broad, so let's leave that out) either absolutely or relatively? These are definitely controversial points which require elaboration, as a lot of people deeply disagree with them.

Why is this case you ask? Well I personally would put it down to the fact that the basis of "western culture" is built upon, historically speaking, especially warlike societies that valued strength, masculinity and the concepts of personal property, wealth, power, the idea of ownership and as such under valued if not outright challenged the idea of 'femininity,' identifying it, or rather forging into a concept of weakness.

Key word being 'historically'. Most of these aspects have certainly been slowly phased out over the last few centuries, to the point where it's hard to say that they accurately describe contemporary Western culture.

And it has to be said, this isn't so much a description of Western culture as it as of practically any culture. There is no proof of any actually 'matriarchal' cultures existing. Even matrilinial and matrifocal cultures like many North American tribes were notoriously misogynist and masculine-focused. The simple reason is that male dominance, or more accurately, distinct female and male spheres in life was the standard for the vast majority of our existence as a species, which was as small groups of hunter gatherers living on the brink. Women had inherent value because the loss of each one severely damaged a group's reproductive capacity, which was quite likely to happen. Men were relatively expendable and stronger on average, so they engaged threats like hunting and other tribes. Which also meant they dominated important decisionmaking. Our closest cousins the chimpanzees were even worse in this regard. Add the introduction of agriculture, property and a complex hierarchical society and it isn't surprising that this evolved into the patriarchal societies that have dominated human civilization until very recently.

Rape is a direct and physical expression of this, the act of raping another, be that man or woman is by its nature an expression of these very values I have just mentioned.

I wouldn't say rape isn't an expression of 'masculinity, property or strength' on a general cultural level, that's far too absolute; though they definitely play an important role. Dominating and penetrating an other person, regardless of sex, was viewed as masculine in Roman society. Violence and rape against social and physical inferiors (like women) was often viewed as an expression of masculinity by Medieval people. And women were generally regarded as being under the guardianship of a man for nearly all of their lives, so marital rape wasn't a thing.

That having been said, there were clear laws preventing many forms of rape, exploitation of and violence against women, which became wider over the centuries. Rape was still omnipresent, not because Western culture itself was so bad, but because premodern society was bad. The average age was far lower than it was today, violence and death was common. The law and state didn't exist anywhere near the levels that it did now, nor was education anywhere near the level it was today.

I could also go into the fact that Western Culture is also built off of especially evangelical Protestant and Roman Catholic values which by their nature are also especially patriarchal, however i won't as I feel I'd just be repeating myself.

'Especially' patriarchal relative to what? Pagan European culture like that of the Romans and Greeks was fiercely patriarchal and phallocentric, in which women generally had less rights than men and were viewed as having their own sphere and values which were often regarded (and would certainly be regarded today) as inferior to that of the men. Prostitution and sexual exploitation of female slaves was rife. Christianity improved the status of women if only because it enshrined them as persons with an equal soul. Marriage became a holy matrimony between two individuals to be ended by death only, placing the sanctity of the nuclear family above clan-structures. Rape of people in general was considered immoral. Prostitution and pimping were criminalized and Pagan reverence of martial masculinity and sexuality was attempted to be replaced with solemn imitation of Christ and general celibacy. Obviously these were just ideals and still not fair; Early Medieval Europe was still a heavily patriarchal place. That having been said, there were a lot of positive developments based on Christianity that mitigated alot of issues facing women in the past and in many other cultures.

In comparison to some other cultures around, say, 1600, I'd say Christianity was one of the least misogynist of the major ones. Concubinage, phallocentricism and ritual female mutilation were still common in Africa and East Asia. Female infanticide and practices like sati were hardly uncommon in India. Even the Islamic world, closest to Christianity, had aspects which were more restrictive for females; such as their legal standing, polygamy, sexual exploitation of slaves and possible dress code. And these differences between the various cultures and the West would only grow greatly in the next few centuries.

As far as I'm aware there isn't a single nation in the Western World that was not built on the backs of these violent ideals, though please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd argue there isn't a single nation on the planet which wasn't based on the backs of those ideals, as we don't have any examples of any that didn't subscribe to the majority of them at the least.

With regards to is "Islamic culture a rape culture?" as I am not a Muslim I cannot or rather would not feel comfortable commenting on this, especially as I do not understand the religious and societal doctrines it actually seeks to express.

That's a strange argument to have. Not being an expert on Islamic theology doesn't mean you can't assess the state of women in that religion based on its laws, values and statistics in general. I think it's rather disingenuous to hold that opinion while criticizing the West for possessing a 'rape culture', firstly because it implies that we must have a similar in-depth knowledge and respect for Christian and pre-Christian Western costums, which I wager the vast majority of feminists do not possess; effectively limiting the discussion to people deemed to be members of or respectful 'experts' on the religion, which obviously isn't conducive to an unbiased investigation. And secondly because it infers that therefore we cannot compare our culture to others, which makes this discussion impossible by default. How can we judge Western culture 'patriarchal' if we have no point of reference? It reeks of a cognitive dissonance based on cultural relativism rather than empiricism. Islamic culture isn't anymore above the same scrutiny we have used against Western culture, and arguments which dispute that fact seem to be grounded in a double standard grounded in subjectivity, rather than the sober and neutral contemplation necessary for such a topic.

Furthermore, I would note that many opinions, especially within "Western Culture" on "Islamic Culture" are skewed and especially biased and generally based on information fed through an uninformed and uneducated lenses that is in it of itself based on general fear mongering. This being said I am of the opinion, as you may have noticed earlier, that all patriarchal societies propagate 'rape culture,' again however I won't go into that as I feel I'd be repeating my self.

Again, this feels like an evasive argument to avoid adressing the issue whether or not Islam is patriarchal, whilst still acknowledging 'Western' (which by definition includes objective and Atheist) arguments that it is and immediately disregarding them. I have to say it's a double standard.

In answer to your final question, I would not say that these progressive women's rights advocate groups are wishing to invite 'rapists' rather they are seeking to do their duty in terms of providing humanitarian aid to those that are suffering at the hands of war, famine and disease. I think this is done regardless of culture or societal values, focusing on the value of human life.

Which is a bizarre stance to hold given their deep hatred for the supposed regressive aspects of Western culture, which links back to the cognitive dissonance I mentioned earlier. Western patriarchy is inherently oppressive the greatest issue facing us and must be destroyed, but importing millions of people who might have an even worse patriarchy is somehow okay because they deserve charity.

It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that these people frequently demonize native men for their supposed misogyny whilst remaining conspicuously silent about minorities with a statistically worse track record. Something even using offenses committed by these specific ethnic groups to promote legislature targetting all men, which is a proposterous exercise in doublethink. Sexism towards men as a gender and oikophobia is considered acceptable, but what might amount to xenophobia isn't. Regardless of whether or not targetting community-specific issues might help societal change for the better for the country and the minority both.

On another note, I don't really frequent these forums much but I'd like to maybe make a suggestion. Big topics like this are best discussed with the use of good and popper sources. These sources can be of whatever political, cultural and societal opinion, as long as they are scholarly and properly researched and referenced. In this regard, I would not consider the use of reddit articles or that of especially biased media organisations to be proper sources when building ones argument... just some food for thought is all.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[Cyclops]

The islamic need to dominate, take over, control and destroy is very well documented. Here is a video from only about 9 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4EpCwhgOCE

The same kind of rhetoric we hear now. Muslim domination worldwide.

It is most fortunate, that, even this late, the West is beginning to wake up to this most vile threat.

This post, and all your posts ITT seem to be an attempt to brand all Muslim men as rapists, by defining Islamic culture as a rape culture. Does this derive from genuine ignorance of Islam (which is a religious and cultural complex but not a single culture)? Do you really misunderstand the term "rape culture"? You must realise its not a qualifier to describe a single culture (which Islam in any case is not) but a term to describe the ideas, beliefs and practices surrounding rape.

It is the most common sexual fantasy consistently reported by women when they are surveyed and asked about their sexual fantasies.

...and as you know there's an enormous difference between fantasy and reality. People who are raped by our shared civilised definition do not consent to it.

[swabian]

Do you really misunderstand the term "rape culture"? You must realise its not a qualifier to describe a single culture (which Islam in any case is not) but a term to describe the ideas, beliefs and practices surrounding rape.

Maybe you want to explain the differences of Islam to rape culture?